Talk:Takrur

Takrur
Parts of this article particularly the "Origin Section" not only failed to cite reliable sources, it also left out material facts as regards to the true origin of Takrur (also spelt Tekrur). In this regard, it totally left out the history of the Serer people (also spelt "Serere", "Seereer", "Sérère" and "Sereer") who are not only the oldest inhabitants of Senegambia along with the Jola people (Source: Gambian Studies No. 17. People of The Gambia. I. The Wolof. By David P. Gamble & Linda K. Salmon with Alhaji Hassan Njie. San Francisco 1985.) to which Takrur is part of, but the article gives the impression that Takrur was founded by the Fula people and/or only the Fula when both historical and archaeological sources contradicts that claim. In fact, at the date and time of raising this article for discussion, no attempt was made by certain people to acknowledge the trutful history of the Serer people who resided at Takrur or Tekrur. Edits I had previously made were vandanlised by a certain person with false and ridiculous accusations. As such, I call all interested parties for an open discussion before I start making further edit on this article. That aside, there is no mention of the Serer people in this article. It is a fact that members of the Serer group have resided in Takrur for milleniums, ruled it, implanted their own royal dynasty as well as their ancient religion (The Serer Religion or "Fat Rog").

The following is a quote from Henry Gravrand, author of "La Civilisation Sereer Pangool" who also authored "La Civilisation Sereer Cossan":

"Since the publication of "Cossan" (history), I took as a starting point of the Sereer story in Tekrur over 2000 years ago, I noted an important discovery. In the middle of the Sahara, in the Tasili the rock carvings listed by Henri L'hote, appears the traces of the present "Sereer Cossan" (Serer history) or their ancestors, a period dating back to the third or fourth millennium. This engraving represents the Sereer initiation Star (Serer Cosmology), with two coiled snakes, symbols of the "Pangool" (ancestral spirits also ancient Serer Saints in the Serer Religion)... The rock where the Star appears is the Sereer symbols of the Pangool which was probably a place of worship." (Source: Henry Gravrand. La Civilisation Sereer - Pangool. Published by Les Nouvelles Editions Africaines du Senegal. 1990. Page 9. ISBN: 2-7236-1055-1.)

The history of the Serer people who resided at Tekrur, the influence of their culture, history, religion and tradition on the land should not and cannot be erased from history. To quote Issa Laye Thiaw, author of "La Femme Seereer":

"If the term "“religiosity" expresses the commitment or devotion to a particular religion, it also applies to the Serer who are jealously attached to their traditional values and show little interest in respect of religions from outside. However, few people adhere to these religions and gradually move away from the religion of the land.  The latter is the object of aggression and distortion on the part of some Muslims, to weaken the impact in people's minds. In this context, their Serer neighbours assigned names and adjectives to things they have invented from scratch, trying to prove their superiority and that of their religion (the Serer Religion)…. The Serers are so far, one of the few people of Senegal who are not yet fully converted to a modern foreign religion…. Obstinately attached to the religion of their ancestors, the Serers refused to change the social and religious life inherited from their ancestors, making every effort to prevent the penetration of foreign religions in their country. Only recently were they superficially converted to Islam and Christianity." (Source: Issa Laye Thiaw. "La Religiosite de Seereer, Avant et pendant leur Islamisation". Ethiopiques no: 54, Revue semestrielle de Culture Négro-Africaine. Nouvelle série, volume 7, 2e Semestre 1991.)

Issa Laye Thiaw's remarks about Islam is absolutely relevant as far as this article is concerned. For a more detailed explanation of what Issa Laye Thiaw is referring to when he said "The latter is the object of aggression and distortion on the part of some Muslims, to weaken the impact in people's minds" please refer to Maba Diakhou Bâ's discussion page. The URL is as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Maba_Diakhou_B%C3%A2

As for this article, Issa's remark is relevant. The article made couple of references to the implantation of Islam in the Kingdom of Takrur and talked about how good this was for the Kingdom and the people. Not only does this article fail to give a true account of how Islam really came to Takrur and how the Serers and only the Serers dared to challenge those who came from the North to implant Islam "by the sword", it also failed to mention the Battles of Sali 1035AD where the Serer people fought bravery, defeated the Almoravid Berbers and their African converts, won several battles in their attempt to preserve their ancient religion and way of life, until finally being defeated by the Islamic coalition (Almoravid Berbers and their African converts). This article says nothing about the Serer nobles that gathered at Sali for the last time to defend the religion of their ancetors as well as their political and economic wealth as controllers of the entire land through the "Lamanic" lineage, and how they fought and died in honour to prevent Islamisation and Arabization of the land. In fact, in regards to Islam implantation in Takrur, this article gives the reader the impression that Islam was implanted there peaceful. The following is a quote from Elisa Daggs, author of "All Africa - All its political entities of independent or other status":

"The Islamic religion which dominates Senegal today was carried from Mecca into North Africa after the seventh century by ... the Sahara by the Arabs and Arabized Berbers into Senegal. Only the powerful Serer tribes resisted conversion..." (Source: Elisa Daggs. All Africa: All its political entities of independent or other status. Hasting House, 1970. ISBN: 0803803362, 9780803803367.)

In its attempt to tell us that the Kingdom was founded by some Fula nobles, not only were the Serer people members the royal dynasty and had a dynasty of their own prior to War Jabi, but War Jabi himself was a member of the Manna dynasty of Mandinka origin and not Fula. It was not until the 15th century when the subjugated Fula rebel called Koli Tangela Ba, finally decided to launch a revolution against his lords and masters and set up the first truly Fula dynasty (Denyanke) and called the country Futa Toro. Which would be later subjugated by the Serer rulers of the Kingdom of Jolof (the "Njie" or "Ndiaye" paternal dynasty which is Serer in origin not Wolof). When Futa Toro finally gained its independence from Jolof, the country was ran sacked by Muslim clerics in 1776 called the Futa Revolution.

From its glorious days as one of the super powers of West Africa, when the Serer people were there, who were not only member of the royal lineage, the High Priests of the country, the land owners through the Serer Lamanic lineage, but also the live blood of the country as they were the main farmers, Takrur went from being a rival to the Ghana Empire to total destruction.

For more information about ancient Serer land law and the Lamanic lineage, see: ("The State Must Be Our Master of Fire". Authored by Dennis C. Galvan. ISBN: 9780520235915) Tamsier (talk) 11:50, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Dubious section - Influence
Not only does this section fail to cite any sources, but the Denanke Kingdom is the same as the kingdom of Fuuta Tooro previously known as Takrur. The "Denanke" (or Deniyanke) was actually a dynasty and not a Kingdom. It was a dynasty formed (1494) in the late 15th early 16th century by Koli Tengela Bâ. It was he who renamed was then Takrur to Fuuta Tooro. In other words, this dynasty ruled the Kingdom of Fuuta Tooro previously known as Takrur. The two are virtually the same but not different kingdoms. 86.184.98.154 (talk) 01:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Serer Advocate editor working across Wikipedia
Due to the revalation of WP:ADVOCACY at work, and widespread inclusion (undue weight of Serer content across several wikipedia pages. This editor has been blocked numerous times but from the edits seems to have attached the POV here also. I also suspect ip ip editor While not all of it is incorrect it has to be given a 2nd look due to the aforementioned problem. It is excessively re-writing African history to introduce an ethnocentric bias. Much of the content is copy and pasted into many articles, even when it doesnt fit the topic. After a search of Takrur I challenge anyone to find the word Serer mention as the edits I have removed suggest.I have decided to invoke "Big claims need BIGGER Ref". Per Weight do you not think it should be at least in this paper? It is a weight issue.[] You will see a certain forced POV, everything went bad without the Serer, The Serer founded everything good in the region--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 02:54, 25 November 2011 (UTC) 86.135.192.247 (talk) 17:31, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Every Serer content was sourced from reliable sources and you very well know that yet it was deleted by no other than you. Why? In fact, in the main, only the Serer content were sourced throughout this article until your deletions . Click next edit for other deletions made by this editor. Deletion of sourced content is against Wiki policy. In deleting content and sources you have also left several incomplete sentences. If you want to take revenge against other editors, please refrain from using Wiki articles as your battle ground. Thank you.
 * User:Tamsier you have been blocked. At least respect that BLOCK. I do not want to take this any further, although I could report this circumvention. If your editing continues I will be forced to report it, You were not Blocked by me, you were blocked for how you have used wikipedia. As oppose to learn (the purpose of a block) and cool down. You come back under a UK ip address.U should have at least quietly fixed the incomplete sentences than try to come and push the Serer POV again. It will not work so retire doing it. I have no care for ur opinions only the policy that keeps these articles at a certain standard and protects Everyone from Agenda edits and deals with NPOV and accurate history. Had you not had this terrible anti-Islamic and anti-Non-Serer attitude the flags would never had been raised. You brought this heat by violating wiki.  --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:36, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Serer Inclusion Issue
The issue with the Serer inclusion has nothing to do with an issue with Serer people but an issue with WEIGHT and the advocacy which causes suspicion. Also I read many books on the region, and went back on my Kindle and searched and I cannot find Serer one time. So I am suspicious of these claims. As soon as they are proven I will not object because I want to know the truth. I also searched google and it brought back next to nothing. Cause for concern is justified. Big Claims need Bigger proof. Yes ref were provided but those are very non-mainstream text and do not hold enough weight on their own. In addition they are mostly out of print and someone neutral would have to verify the claims. That would be a solution an expert on this topic to verify these Serer claims.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, just a comment. I think there are three main important issues that may have been overlooked.  The first issue deals Tekrur as a Kingdom before the Serers of Tekrur migration southwards following their defeath by the Muslim coalition army. The Serers before their migration had also played a significant role in Tekrur.  That is what I was trying to address with sources but sadly that was deleted along with the sources. To assist, perhaps the relevant sections can be (main) linked to the Serer ancient history and Serer medieval history to present. The Serer medieval history to present will be cleaned up.  The second issue is Tekrur after the Serers of Tekrur have migrated.  The article as it stands now, is mainly focusing on this. As such, it gives the impression that Serer people have never lived there, their language and history had no relevance to Tekrur.  In other words, Serer history and language in Tekrur have been totally obliterated. I think many sources deals with Tekrur as a Muslim kingdom (this is after the Serers of Tekrur have migrated), but there are countless sources that support the notion that Serers also previously lived there as well some of which I have cited previously.  Archeological reports such as the work of Descamps, Becker etc also support that nortion.  Third, we are forgetting that Tekrur was a thing of the past.  It is now in modern day Futa Toro which was renamed Futa in the 15th century.  Since Tekrur is of the past and the Serers have lived there, it perhaps merit their historical inclusion as well as their language.  In the Futa Toro article, it would make no sense to include the Serers in that because the renaming happened centuries later after the Serers of Tekrur have migrated.

Some of these sources among those deleted may offer some insight:
 * -Marguerite Dupire, Résidence, Tenure Foncière, Alliance dans une Société Bilinéaire (Serer du Sine et du Baol, Sénégal). p44
 * -Maurice Delafosse, Haut-Senegal-Niger
 * -Jean Joire, Découvertes archéologiques dans la région de Rao (Bas- Sénégal). p249.
 * -Gerti Hesseling, Histoire politique du Senegal. p49.

Here is some snippet from Maurice Delafosse's "The Negroes of Africa: history and culture", p50, addressing the Serer migration from Tekrur modern day Futa and heading towards the Sine.

86.135.192.247 (talk) 18:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * WP:REDFLAG surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources;I understand some of these issues, I am not an expert on who was there before and that is the cause of the problem. I only know of it as part of Islamic African history. Takrur the region was previously inhabited by Serer who left and then Takrur (as we know it) came into existence. That is still in the article. The issue is almost like this "The Khoisan were the original settlers of Cape Town" Sure but that doesnt mean they founded Cape Town as we see it today. So SYNTH two facts dont = reality.  I seriously think the solution is to get an expert 3rd opinion who knows this history. If you know such editors please contact them. But adding Serer religion and Serer language to the info bar looks like a weight issue and those claims really need serious support. as if that was the majority language and religion of Takrur which is obviously an ally of Almoravid (the enemies of the Serer people). --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I think they are covered by mainstream sources. Delafosse, and others are highly peer reviewed. I think it also depends on what you mean by mainstream sources, the sources you looking at and in what context they discuss Tekrur.  For example in Klein's "Islam and Imperialism in Senegal, Sine-Saloum", he only briefly touched the medieval history of the Serer people of modern day Futa and their migration after the Almoravids and Muslim coalition defeated them.  Instead, he devouted most of that book on the 19th to 20th century history of the Serers.  Anyway, to avoid any future edit wars I would like to add more sources to the relevant section (origin) which actually deals with the claims in more detail but were deleted.  I will not be making any further edit to that until this issue is address.  Just a small minor removal of an incomplete sentence also. Below are my edits which doesn't differ much to what is already in the article. If everyone is ok with that, I or you can post it there yourself:

According to historical and archaeological sources, the kingdom was actually founded by the Serer people along with the Jola people. The Serer people who resided at Takrur, had previously ruled the Kingdom. They were the high priests and priestesses and the land owners through what is referred to as the Lamanic lineage (Kings and land owners of the Serer people). 94.197.54.120 (talk) 21:13, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It has been included, but please do not edit anymore articles on wiki (talk page dont bother me, but even that is risky when you are blocked). It is only a matter of time before someone brings this to the attention of an admin and guess what will happen? And what worries me is back at the serer thing again. You actually do more damage for Serer content by doing this. Because then editors see the POV editing and like sharks come in- thats how i got on your back. Everything Serer now is treated as suspicious. one report of this will get this ip blocked forever WP:PUPPET and and a |block extension on your user account.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:55, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

86.135.192.247 (talk) 17:41, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks. I will take your advise. I didn't even edit much other than adding sources to unsourced African articles. But I will not be editing again.  I just hate wrong information being published as truth and it really gets on my nerves.  I respect history far too much.  But I will take your advise, besides I'm off to Senegal.  Have a great Christmas and New Year and the same to Walrasiad.  Lol. I'll apologise to her properly when I come back for calling her a stupid woman.

Serer redux
I have two of the sources mentioned at the top of the page, Gamble/Solomon and Becker. Neither of them mention this claim that the Serer founded Takrur. If we can find some actual reliable sources that discuss this then they can and should be added. Otherwise we just have one editor pushing the Serer into various articles with dubious sources or sources that are clearly reliable but simply don't back the claim. Dougweller (talk) 10:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, found a clearly reliable source and added that neutrally without bells and whistles. Dougweller (talk) 11:33, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Owen 'Alik Shahadah
A discussion thread about the reliability and notability of this author and his pages is taking place at Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, please comment there so we can get a final consensus. Rupert Loup (talk) 12:05, 5 October 2015 (UTC)