Talk:Taliesin (studio)

Historical Accuracy
This Article states the murderer's name was Julian Carlston, not Carlton:

WILD NEGRO CHEF KILLS 6, WOUNDS 4; Former Mrs. C.H. Cheney of Chicago Murdered in Cottage of Frank Lloyd Wright. SLAYS ONE AFTER THE OTHER Sets Fire to Building and One More Victim May Be In the Ruins. Special to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 16, 1914. p. 12 (1 page)

The following article indicates that 5 were murdered, not 7, though this is most likely a mistake. This article uses the name Carlton: $500,000 FIRE IN BUNGALOW.; Wisconsin Architect Loses Home of Valuable Prints. New York Times. Apr 22, 1925. p. 9 Hobga (talk) 04:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * : Biographies and other archival materials state that the murderer's last name was Carlton. Another article written after the fires was transcribed and placed on the PBS website, on this page. The transcribed article on the PBS site is from the Aug. 20, 1914 edition of the Weekly Home News, the newspaper of Spring Green, Wisconsin. So, the names must have been confirmed by that time. The article that you cited from the New York Times appears to have been written after the murders, but before the last victim died. So, 6 were confirmed dead immediately, but the number was eventually 7, the following day I beleive. I looked at one of the biographies--Frank Lloyd Wright: A Biography, by Meryle Secrest (1992, HarperPerenniel, 1993; p. 219-220)--to determine which person died last, but the author did not state it.


 * The April 22, 1925 article in The New York Times refers to the second fire at Taliesin that consumed the residence wing (that fire was probably caused by a wiring problem and did not result in any deaths). It looks as if the name Carlton was considered correct by 1925. So it appears that Carlston was a spelling error when the news first broke. Marykeiran (talk) 23:43, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * In the Taliesin I article, under Attack and fire subsection; two references to hydrochloric acid (a digestive enzyme) should probably read muriatic acid, a more likely substance in that it is commonly used in general masonry to clean cement and other debris from rocks, bricks, etc. Nancy Horan, author of Loving Frank, © 2007, writes that Julian Carlton had been found "mute and weak from having drunk muriatic acid" on page 343. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtngal (talk • contribs) 00:01, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation
My friend and I were debating the pronunciation of this word. That guide is completely worthless, in my opinion. Can someone add an audible pronunciation, or something? Thanks, MKultra


 * I've heard the word pronounced "Tal-ee-see-an", but Frank Lloyd Wright pronounced the word Tally-ess-in. Marykeiran 22:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Disambig?
If there's enough use for a disambiguation page, I'd think you'd want links back from the various articles... dm 01:44, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This is very old, but there is a general disambig page for Taliesin... and the two Wright properties have about statements that link to one another now.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 18:53, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Santiago Martinez Delgado
I believe that references to Delgado need to be removed from this page. My reasons are below.

I have not been able to find any evidence that Delgado worked under Frank Lloyd Wright, or in his Taliesin studio. While I have looked, there is no correspondence between him and Wright at Wright's archives in Scottsdale, Arizona, nor are there any remembrances of him from written memoirs of those who worked with Wright at approximately this same time.

In addition, on Delgado's Wikipedia page, there is a photograph of him "Working in stained windows for Frank Lloyd Wright, 1933." However, Wright wasn't designing stained glass windows by that time; and he never designed stained glass windows that looked like the ones near Delgado in the photograph.

And, finally, the only direct reference that Wright supposedly made about Delgado is on Delgado's Wikipedia page; aside from that, I can find no other corroborating evidence. I think that references to him need to be taken out until an independent source can show that he had a relationship to Frank Lloyd Wright or his studio.

Marykeiran (talk) 16:41, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Just to keep track of things, there's no mention of Delgado now.-- CaroleHenson  ( talk ) 21:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

attack/murder section
at first, i was just going to ask--who was the surviving witness that was present when Mamah was murdered and whose statement allowed for the indictment of calrton? this reads that there were only 3 people present--Mamah and the 2 children, and that 2 died immediately, and the young girl was chased down and killed on the patio. or did she survive long enough to make a statement?

then, i was trying to find an answer (and wanted to add in the ages of the children at the time of the murders because that seems like a common-enough question that people might have, especially the boy's age ((as i was wondering, if he was closer to 18, how Carlton could have so easily killed him))), and came across this page, that has some of the facts a bit different: http://www.morethancurds.com/2012/10/haunted-wisconsin-julian-carlton.html yes, i'm not sure about the source, but... also, there's an interesting theory presented in the comments on that page. i'm wondering if others have written about this theory and if it should, then, be mentioned here?? just a note--i put in the ages but had to guess, without birth dates, and later changed the boy's age to reflect what i read on other pages.Colbey84 (talk) 05:39, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

In response, I have found numerous contemporary (1914) publications regarding the murder/attack that could be of use to describing events. The existing info appears to be strongly related to a singular source (perhaps it is a copy-paste from the biographer's book?). I was taken aback by the multiple "sfn" templates for the same few books throughout the wikipedia page. After reading about these forms of citation, something is obvious occurring in error and failing to generate appropriately. I want to review advice about why this is not appearing as intended and also review the book pages referenced before making any additions, alterations or mention of separate theories/facts. Written with care, expanding knowledge about the subject, including myths, overlooked facts and interpretations, can help provide a framework for further research and reference. Roxanne-snowden (talk) 12:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

The article says that Borthwick's grave is unmarked. But in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3juSckHif90 the documentary film-maker found such a marker. I would add this to the article, but I'm not confident about how to cite a YouTube video. Peter Jedicke (talk) 08:52, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Use of term "African American" for Carlton
I understand that this term is sometimes used reflexively, and perhaps euphemistically for black Americans -- or, if you like -- for Americans of sub-Saharan African ancestry. The term has some very appropriate usages, analogous to other "X-American" usages, in a nation where citizenship/nationality is -- at least ideally -- much more important than ethnicity (e.g. Irish-American, Chinese-American). This is different than "Old World" countries like England, or Italy, or Serbia, or China, or India. There is no American ethnicity.

That said, "African-American" is NOT a substitute for "black" (or whatever preferred term for this ethnicity). There are all sorts of people who might be called "black" who are not "American" (e.g. much or most of sub-Saharan Africa, most or much of the West Indies, a significant portion of South America, and, arguably, a significant portion of Canada).

Carlton, according to the article, is of immediate Barbadian ancestry. Therefore, he was not African-American, or at least the term is confusing.

It seems to me that the article should refer to him as simply "black" or "a black man of West Indian ancestry" or "a black American of Barbadian origin" or something more specific such as "a black American born to Barbadian parents" etc.

It really isn't a matter of being pedantic. Cartlon's parents were immigrants from Barbados, and in the culture of the United States, that is an important distinction. To pretend otherwise is doing a disservice to the complicated history of Africans in the New World. And it is important in understanding the mystery of Cartlon's character -- whatever we think about him, one of the few certainties is that he was an American who had roots in the West Indies.

StrangeAttractor (talk) 07:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Be bold... yeah, ok, so it's been quite some time since my comment above, so I just edited the article to conform better to what I wrote above. It's a slightly clumsy edit, but more accurate.  As someone who appreciates accuracy in language, I find it highly annoying (and unfactual) to use the term "African-American" for black people who do not, in fact, come from the United States.  (e.g. Bob Marley was not African-American.  He was a Jamaican of African ancestry).  If you'd like to discuss this edit, I'm interested. StrangeAttractor (talk) 05:38, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

<< This is a response to the above comment. There is a website for Barbados locals and they sought community help in determining the genealogy of Gertrude and Julian Carlton. The most interesting was the discovery that maybe Julian entered the US with a different first name, as an adult. The presumption was that Gertrude immigrated with her husband. Is there evidence instead that Julian was born in the USA (or otherwise immigrated as a child) with his parents coming from Barbados? (That seems like that was the alluded to suggestion above.) Doing a records search, there is a possible contemporary person with the same name from Alabama (which I have seen cited as a claim that Barbados decent was a lie), but this seems to be a modern theory and perhaps due to an overzealous review of ancestry dot com (the record indicates that the Alabamian J.C. was married to someone else). Its unclear as to whether or not Julian and Gertrude spoke with an accent, to what extent if so, and whether anyone who knew the couple in the US could authenticate it. There seemed to be a consensus that at least Julian was from Barbados. That may have been important, as he possibly was not a US citizen. In 1914, WW1 broke out and Britain had just entered (Barbados was a colony). In the preceding years, there had been growing racial tensions too (which would later result in a series of riots). Its possible inclusion of Barbados served to differentiate the Carltons from African-Americans. Its hard to say as theories often evolve in hindsight.

Regarding using the term African-American, I agree, the acceptable use would be to use 'Black' (unless necessary use of direct quotes, which referenced the then contemporary use of 'Negro'). Referring to Carlton as a Barbadian, or Bajan, would be appropriate. There doesn't seem to be any imperative need to draw much attention to race or nationality, as that wasn't determined to be an extraordinary factor. (I found an article to cite later that discusses that some theories masquerading as fact online on the reasons for Julian's actions, as being race related, arose from a fictional story about the events in the 1990s.)Roxanne-snowden (talk) 13:02, 13 July 2020 (UTC)