Talk:Tally stick

Untitled
In his famous diary, British Naval administrator Samuel Pepys describes going to the office of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, where he worked as a clerk for George Downing, the man who built Downing Street. At the Exchequer Pepys would go "...to strike his tallies." This was a form of reconciling accounts, and the account cited is from "The Shorter Pepys," edited by Robert Lapham.

if the sticks were split lengthwise, how did one person receive a shorter end? Suppafly 15:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a correct reflection. The saying "the short end of the stick" has no known relationship with the concept of split tallies. (See the article - The Long Story of The Short End of the Stick, Charles Clay Doyle, American Speech, Vol. 69, No. 1 (Spring, 1994), pp. 96-101.) The best bet seems to be that this expression relates to the common lot drawing with two or more unequally long sticks. However, the Exchequer Tallies used by the Bank of England were cut in a manner producing a long and a short portion of the stick by splitting the tally only part of the way in a lengthwise fashion. For a reference see the first external link at the end of this article *Photo of Medieval Exchequer Tallies*.Popeye2 05:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

This page seems to have text verbatim from this wikipedia article. There's no reference to that page in the article, and no reference to copyright or the GNU FDL on that page. Not sure if that's our issue or not. 209.239.13.226 (talk) 18:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * At the bottom of that page is a notice that they copied the article from Wikipedia as well as a link back to the article here. So, it's not an error on our part, though I think that tripatlas.com has erred in not producing a notice that the work is liscensed under the GFDL, as I believe is required under that very liscense. -- Queen Spiral (talk 20:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge suggestion
There is a merge suggestion at the top of this article. Why would 'tally marks' be merged with this article? There are many more types of tally marks than those made on tally sticks. If anything it should be the other way around, but tally sticks are indeed a topic in their own right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dranorter (talk • contribs) 00:45, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Somebody placed that tag back in July 2009, with no reason given why such a merge should be done. Since they are indeed separate topics, and there is no discussion in favor of a merge, I'm removing the tag. Nibios (talk) 17:26, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Note how the examples listed in the subsection 'possible paleolithic tally sticks' are bones, not sticks. Further note that in the 'single tally' subsection it defines a tally stick as an elongated piece of bone, ivory, wood or stone. Of those materials, I would only call an elongated piece of wood a stick. The rest of the subsection mentions 'messenger sticks' (which are decidedly not tally sticks... they are used to communicate a message not a simple count). Also an uncited statement that tally sticks were used for 'primarily mnemonic purposes.' Not only is there no citation, such sticks would not be tally sticks, but rather mnemonic sticks (i.e. mnemonic devices).  I would propose that the this article be renamed 'split tally sticks' and the single tally sections be merged with the tally marks article.  --Edinyuma (talk) 05:48, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Tallies as Money
I'm reviewing the section on tallies in Glyn Davies' History of Money. It bears out the fact that tallies were indeed used as money as Vilhelmo says below. Also, regarding the unsigned comment below, tallies were indeed used in England as an alternative to money and not as a forerunner (English coinage of high quality existed for a couple of centuries before the use of taly sticks initiated by Henry I). I'll see if I can gather a few short quotations to summarize this in the article. Miguel (talk) 14:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Exchange?
Where the tally sticks used then for exchange, or would they stay with the two parties that made the transaction until the debt was paid? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.78.185 (talk) 10:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Talley sticks were a forerunner for money. The article states that it was an alternative, which it wasn't. It was essentially a timesheet system for monitoring fair adherence to tasks...   It had nothing to do with money being in short supply....  "Money" was one of many methods of trade, and was more about decorating discs of precious metal more than anything...  It became illegal to trade in anything but state-branded coins during the medieval period. For fear of losing ones hands, one followed...  Discuss.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.168.77 (talk) 18:59, 18 October 2010 (UTC)


 * This is not a suitable venue for discussing tally sticks, you need to find a forum. We can discuss whether we should use certain sources, or the organisation of the article, or various other things to do with the article, but not a general discussion of the subject of the article. Dougweller (talk) 20:34, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I've posted this on the discussion page of King Henry I of England, but hope that I can find more information here. "I am certainly no expert, but I can't seem to find any reliable source supporting the claim that tally sticks were a "monetary system." It seems to me that it was rather a system of reckoning -- a proof of payment, or receipt. If someone can provide me with any more information on the tally stick system, I would be grateful. (For the time, I've put a citation tag next to the paragraph on tally sticks.) -- Ambrosiaster (talk) 16:59, 7 December 2010 (UTC)"

Operation Realities of Tally Sticks as Money
The tally sticks were money. The article is not clear on this point.

The article also fails to mention how the system operated.

Every money system is composed of an issuer (in this case the crown) and users (the people). The crown would issue tally sticks in payment for the goods & services it purchased. But why would people agree to exchange their good & services for a stick of wood? Because they could use that stick to pay their taxes Taxes create the demand for money. Vilhelmo (talk) 18:06, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Virtual Tally Sticks
Notching and breaking sticks is analogous to one-way functions in cryptography. Messages have been encoded this way for centuries. Now instead of using jagged sticks, they multiply large prime numbers because they are practically impossible to reverse without both variables, just like the tally sticks. Now even money can be created using electronic Virtual Tally Sticks. One of the most successful to do this to date is Bitcoin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbeast (talk • contribs) 00:53, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Lebombo Bone has 29 notches - 29 Days of Menstrual Cycle & Lunar Cycle
I tweaked... The Lebombo Bone is a baboon's fibula with 29 distinct notches which may have kept track of the similar menstrual cycle and lunar cycle. - an early mathematician 50.153.106.144 (talk) 15:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A rubbish source. One of 4 books written by that famous author "Pulp Media". And see the review at (although Amazon.com does have it now). Anyway, even if the author had any claims to be a mathematician, he's not an archaeology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 18:14, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * All science is ultimately math. Kortoso (talk) 16:28, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Even if that's true, archaeology isn't a science. Doug Weller  talk 19:30, 17 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Archaeology is absolutely a science. Social scientists are still scientists. We use scientific epistemology and methodology, publish in peer-reviewed journals, peer-review each other, and make and test predictions. Scientific study of human beings is not somehow invalid just because we study humans instead of wildlife or rocks or stars. 2601:441:4400:1740:B4C5:5235:F86B:5A37 (talk) 15:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Not well explained as currency
The article explains the physical nature of various Tally Sticks but does not really explain how they were used and exchanged as currency after introduction by King Henry. It would be good if someone could explain how it worked. The Tally stick is initially created after the exchange of goods or service. How does a tax receipt become currency? Can examples be given how exchange and redemption work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.23.221 (talk) 09:44, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggested source (move from article)
May I politely suggest that a good source for information on Exchequer Tally Sticks is Hubert Hall, The Antiquities and Curiosities of the Exchequer, Elliot Stocks, Paternoster Row, 1891. Walob — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walob (talk • contribs) 10:53, 24 August 2017 (UTC)


 * This is a reasonable suggestion, and I will add it to "Further reading". GrindtXX (talk) 22:08, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Split tally is the best anti-counterfeiting bank recording system ever created
It is almost impossible to be counterfeit, even with today's technology. The structure and lines of the wood, as well as the split itself, create a specific barcode that even an idiot can match, and it is almost impossible to reproduce them to such an extent that a careful inspection will not detect the attempted deception with the naked eye. This is the reason why the bankers have not abandoned this system for so long. Consider how easily any other modern bank record system, electronic or paper, can be falsified. A special section is needed to make this clear to readers.62.73.72.32 (talk) 09:34, 11 November 2022 (UTC)