Talk:Talysh-Mughan Autonomous Republic

Talish
Im half Azeri and half Talish (dad's side) and maybe the Talysh-Mughan Republic flag but its not the Talish flag, which is: http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/a/az%7Dtnm.gif

As far as I know the Talish consider themselfs as Azeris and the last time a TMR speech was held, the holder of that speech got banned from the district because he wanted to separate Talsih from Azerbaijan. Im trying to say that the TMR has almost no support at all. Baku87 00:47, 21 March 2006 (UTC)Baku87


 * As far as I know, Iran's Azeris (my father included) consider themselves Iranians and the last time the separatists held another rally using Babek's commemoration as an excuse, they had zero support...most Iranian Azeris do not want to separate Azeri provinces from Iran...Azerbaycan bizim torpaqimizdi, Iran ise vetenimizdi...period.

I was talking about Talish who life in Azerbaijan not Iran. I know whoever lives in Iran is manipulated to think they are Iranians rather then Azeris. But other ethnic groups such as Persians and Kurds do believe they are first Kurds/Persians then second Iranians. South Azeris have been manipulated to think in refurse. Baku87 14:00, 10 April 2006 (UTC)Baku87


 * From what I've read, the Talysh were even organized in their own Khanate at the time Russia had conquered the region. I've also read that they went through intense persecution under Stalin who denied them autonomy in the Azerbaijan SSR.  I believe that the Talysh are a distinct Indo-European ethnic group.  They are neither Azeris or Iranians.  To call the Talysh "South Azeris" would be like calling the Kurds "Mountain Turks" or the Ukrainians "Little Russians." -- Clevelander 14:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Problems
For Golbez: First, what is it supposed to mean "learn from NK page"? I have the same question to you too.

Second, TMR was not a "state", it was an entity or to go by it's semi-official name, autonomous republic -- it lacked everything that a state needs, from popular support (that's why it fell so easily, and in fact, never picked up from the ground despite Azerbaijan being extremely weak at the time) to state legitimacy to even basic state attributes aside for a flag (which is the easiest attribute - even football clubs have theirs).

Moreover, how and why anyone can claim here that it was supposed to be independent, and not an autonomous republic within Azerbaijan, like Naxcivan? That's what Alikram Gumbatov said many times and that's the "official" name of the "republic" - Talysh-Mughan AUTONOMOUS Republic.

Thirdly, there were several other edits, such as about the fact that it was not simple "turmoil", but civil war, and that the TMAR had tacit support from Russia and Iran. Furthermore, TMAR could never have been "reincorporated" into Azerbaijan -- it never either was recognized or de facto independent. Instead, it were several politicians and military, led by Col. Gumbatov, who made the declaration -- and several people died during that "declaration of independence". Why shoulnd't these be mentioned?

If one wants to edit anything, he or she should know what he/she is doing and what is he/she talking about. I do, and that's why I edit, and I demand the same from anyone else who edits too, much less reverts my edits. --AdilBaguirov 20:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I will also add the Azerbaijani flag and coat of arms which is fully warranted and appropriate as it was a self-declared autonomous republic that aimed to remain as part of Azerbaijan. --AdilBaguirov 20:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a couple of questions, Adil. If this was so, then why did the government in Baku completely dissolve it instead of leaving it as n autonomous republic, if it was one at all?  And why did they jail its leaders?  How come the Talysh people have no autonomy in Azerbaijan today?  Also, does the title "autonomous republic" autonmatically imply that the Talysh still wanted to be part of Azerbaijan?  If this is so, then why did its leaders decide to completely distance themselves from Baku?  Also if they wanted to be part of Azerbaijan then why are they members of the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO)?  -- Clevelander 19:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Clevelander -- before we go into this complex issue, who are "they"? If you mean the Talysh people in general, then the point is that they were never represented by either Alikram Humbatov or any other ethnic Talysh wanting to be seen as the sole leader or leader of the majority. Thus, who are members of the UNPO? Just because there are a few separatists or dissenters or otherwise unhappy people among Talysh, even if they constitute double digits of the entire Talysh population, does it give you or anyone else the right to present them as the legitimate spokesmen for the Talysh ethnos? No. Talysh are well integrated into the Azerbaijani society - many businessmen, government officials, Majlis (Parliament) members, party leaders, religious leaders, etc., are Talysh. There are well over 5,000 various ethnic groups in the world -- does it mean there should be that many states? Of course not. Azerbaijan has about 70 different ethnic groups, some of them very small, hundreds or few thousand representatives. Just like Canada, USA or India for that matter, with bunch of small ethnoses.


 * Then let us not forget that there are perhaps more Talysh in Iran than in Azerbaijan -- so why no autonomy for them there? Or for Kurds, Lurs, Ahwazi, Turkmen, etc., not to mention Azerbaijanis?


 * Then, once more, the so-called TMAR was never either legitimate or popular - it was never "dissolved" per se, do you have any Azerbaijan government decrees to show its dissolution? Of course not, as there are none, since there was nothing to dissolve, there were only separatists or otherwise elements that were anti-state, who were to be dealt with, arrested. Neither could Azerbaijan "leave it as an autonomous republic" -- once again, just because a few like-minded individuals get together and cease their chance to declare something amid chaos and civil war, it doesn't make it either legitimate or real. Clevelander, imagine if a groups of Kenyans (for example) get together in your home town of Cleveland, OH (for example), and declare they foundation of a Kenyan Autonomous Republic. They also draw their flag, as well as coat of arms, structure of their government, tax rates, give themselves loud titles such as President, Speaker, Minister, etc., and then defy the orders of the police or FBI or National Guard. What would have happened to them? Judging from what happens to anyone who does such things in any Western or other strong state, they would be jailed or killed instantly on the spot. So what is the grievance with Azerbaijan? The TMAR was not an expression of the popular will -- had it been such, there would be no way for the Baku authorities to do anything at least in 1993, when Azerbaijan was at its weakest point in decades. Can you imagine if all or even 1/4 of the 200,000+ Talysh supporting this demand? I can not only imagine, but know what happens in the Caucasus when 50,000 people come at once to the streets -- Rose Revolution in Georgia is a fresh example. Hundreds of Talysh died in the hands of Armenian aggressors in Karabakh, defending the freedom and integrity of their country, Azerbaijan - why would they suddenly want to separate, or even create an autonomous entity? Maybe if you look more scrupulously at who harbors them and where, and where are all those newspapers printed, and conferences held, you would see that it is not that simple, and there are "third forces" "helping" Talysh (or others) to "better understand" their "aspirations". Anyways, once again, had such demands been legitimate and popular, and not personal ambitions and greed of certain people, there would be no way central authorities could have done anything -- Azerbaijan was simply too weak and bleeding in the early 1990s. --AdilBaguirov 13:23, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Talysh-Mughan AUTONOMOUS Republic, not just TMR
It is important to change the page's name to reflect this important term: it was a self-declared AUTONOMOUS republic that styled itself to be part of Azerbaijan, it did not want to ceede from Azerbaijan! All Talysh sources correctly attribute the term, as do authoritative English-language sources: "Alikram Gumbatov was the leader of the self-declared Talysh Mugan Autonomous Republic which existed briefly in the south of the country at a time of political instability in 1993." BBC, Why was this information omitted in Wikipedia? Who created this page and "forgot" to mention this "little detail" about it being autonomous? --AdilBaguirov 20:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The article was started by User:Punkmorten, an administrator (who is neither Talysh or Azeri) and most of its content, prior to your edits, was from http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/az_taly.html. -- Clevelander 19:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for fixing it! --AdilBaguirov 13:25, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * ...for fixing what? -- Clevelander 20:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought you fixed the title and added the autonomous to it, but I guess it was someone else. --AdilBaguirov 22:44, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, that was Grandmaster. -- Clevelander 01:37, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * "Who created this page and "forgot" to mention this "little detail" about it being autonomous?" Such a comment is not helpful in the least. Stop trying to irritate people, or find haters where none exist. --Golbez 15:46, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It would be more helpful if you were to criticize the person who created the page and omitted such a "small" detail, and not me. Irritation is not a prerogative of any one person -- I'm not very excited about having to spend time arguing about fixing glaring errors and having to explain that UN's or State Dept's word, for one, is more important than some biased author's or their websites. --AdilBaguirov 16:40, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually Talysh-Mughan (Talyshia) wanted to cede form the Republic of Azarbaijan (Arran) and many of its leaders have been jailed as seperatists or traitors to the state. International NGOs and organizations have protested their treatment, such as the Council of Europe. Here is an article about how sperartist leaders of Talysh-Mughan were let of prison; http://www.cacianalyst.org/view_article.php?articleid=2691&SMSESSION=NO . Talysh-Mughan has on several days were declared or tried to declare itself an independent republic from Baku, such as the most notable one on June, 1993.
 * 69.196.164.190

Anon, not quite clear what you wanted to say by your post above -- no, neither Alikram Gumbatov nor other leaders of the TMAR wanted to ceede from Azerbaijan. There are several Russian-language admissions of this from Gumbatov himself. There is also a letter from him to the Prosecutor-General of Azerbaijan saying that he is ready to serve his lifetime sentence because he does not want to have his issue damage Azerbaijan's image and standing in the world. And Azerbaijan (and not Azarbaijan) is not Arran - that is only one of the historic provinces, located on the right bank of Kura river, and thus encompassing at best half of Azerbaijan Republic. I understand that some Iranians have trouble with understanding this reality, but these are facts. Alikram Gumbatov was charged with multiple counts, such as illegal possession of weapons, treason, attempt of coup d'etat, activity leading to death of people and abuse of authority (and he was a Colonel of the Az. Army, thus military law applied to him). International NGOs protest far more against Iran and its treatment of minorities of Iran, should I provide a few links about that? Anyways, as I said, it is unclear what you tried to say or oppose with your above post, and how it dispoves even 1% of what I wrote. Let's speak with facts and knowledge, not emotions and biases. --AdilBaguirov 18:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Firstly, you have just proven that you are misinformed, becuase Gumbatov was pardoned.


 * Secondly, I refer you to the report from the COuncil of Europe on the lack of democracy and mistreatment of Prisoners in the Republic of Azarbaijan, that talks about Gumbatov. It also verified that it was a Republic and not an Autonomous Republic.


 * Thirdly, he was declared primarily an enemy of the state. What for?


 * Lastley, please do not attack me, keep your comments directed towards edits and discussion not other editors. Yes, I agree with you let us speak with facts and knowledge not emotions and bias.


 * Please review your sources or do not misrepresent the facts, because Talysh-Mughan (Talyshia/Talyshistan) wanted to brake away and I have even offered one source for you. 69.196.164.190


 * BBC is a more accurate source. It says that it was called autonomous republic.


 * And note the following. The leaders of this coup say that they did not want to break away from Azerbaijan:


 * However, those involved - all members of the Talysh minority - say they always envisaged the republic as a constituent part of Azerbaijan.


 * And I see no personal attack on part of Adil whatsoever. Stick to facts, and you will have no problems discussing things with other editors. Grandmaster 09:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There is obviously a personal attack, when he brings up Iran out of no where. Please to do not lie moore than you already do GM, becuase it is uncivil and your behaviour is beginning to get very bad. By stating that he has nt made a personal attack against me you are in fact lying and anyone who reads this talk page will be aboe to see that. 69.196.164.190


 * Now this is a clear personal attack. You accuse me of lying without any proof, while I clearly shown that you have very poor knowledge of the subject of this article and Adil said the same thing, which was not a personal attack, but simple statement of an obvious fact. Bringing up Iran is not a personal attack, you are not the French king Louis XIV who said that his state was him. If you think it was a personal attack, keep on bringing the issue up to various admins like you do and see what happens. Grandmaster 07:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Kurds
Ali, please add only relevant info to the article. Kurds have nothing to do with Talysh, and their case is not illustrative. Their autonomy was created by Stalin to promote Kurdish separatism in Turkey and Iran. Later Stalin changed his mind, abolished Kurdish autonomy and deported Kurds from Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia to Kazakhstan. Azerbaijan had absolutely nothing to do with it, and this information is not relevant to the articles about other ethnic groups, such as Azerbaijanis, Talysh, etc. If you need sources on this, I can provide them. You know that I always do. Grandmaster 10:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The many people in the republic of Azerbaijan were forefully assimilated during the USSR era. is not irrelevant in general. Then it talks about Kurds.  According to a good variety of sources, the republic of Azerbaijan writes down Talysh as Azeris in their card.. Of course I did not want to write about such issues but unfortunately some people lately have done similar things with Iran related topics.  --alidoostzadeh 10:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Soviet bureaucracy favored bigger ethnicities and tried to merge small ethnic groups with bigger ones. It was envisaged that the smaller groups would merge with bigger ones, and bigger ones would form a new Soviet nation. Such policy was implemented not only in Azerbaijan, but in other regions of former USSR, such as Russia, or Central Asia (Tajikistan, for example). As for Kurds, here’s an interesting article in a Russian newspaper. It describes how USSR was promoting Kurdish separatism in Turkey and Iran. It also describes the short-lived Kurdish autonomy in Azerbaijan, which was created and then eliminated by the Soviet authorities. I also don’t want to focus on negative info, but you see what’s going with Azerbaijan related articles for quite some time now. Some people are not happy that we manage to overcome our differences and try to make the articles the source of accurate info. Grandmaster 11:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * That is in interesting article.. Of course the policy of USSR was to promote separatism when it was in its interest.. pretty much unfortunately like many governments of the region.  --alidoostzadeh 08:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

COE
That is selective quoting. The source is talking about the Framework Convention adopted by Azerbaijan, but goes on to say:

-''The Nagorno-Karabakh conflict and its consequences have considerably hampered efforts to implement the Framework Convention. Despite the general spirit of tolerance in Azerbaijan, the continued occupation of large parts of Azerbaijani territory and the displacement of a high number of people have caused tensions which have resulted in disconcerting manifestations of intolerance. It is to be hoped that a lasting and peaceful solution to the existing conflict will be found and that efforts to that effect will be accelerated. The eventual solution should protect the rights of all persons concerned, in conformity with the territorial integrity of the country and other principles of international law;

- ''Certain general human rights issues - including concerns as regards freedom of expression and the process of registration of non-governmental organisations - have an impact also on the protection of national minorities and need to be addressed by the authorities as a matter of priority;

- ''Despite certain positive legislative initiatives, there are a number of shortcomings in the legislation pertaining to the implementation of the Framework Convention. The 2002 Law on the State Language contains regrettable reductions in the legal guarantees relating to the protection of national minorities. These put at risk, for example, certain commendable practices in the field of electronic media. The process of amending the said law should be pursued further with a view to making it compatible with the Framework Convention;

- ''There is a need to couple the Law on the State Language with improved legal guarantees for the protection of national minorities in such fields as minority language education and use of minority languages in relations with administrative authorities, with a view to consolidating and expanding the positive practices that exist. Priority should be given to the adoption of a new law on the protection of national minorities, providing the necessary guarantees for the implementation of the relevant minority language standards; ''

Azerbaijani 21:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The quote is not selective. It provides information with regard to the situation with ethnic minorities in Azerbaijan. Instead of removing referenced info, which is a violation of wiki rules, you can add info that you consider appropriate for the article. Grandmaster 04:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok then, we will just elaborate on the quote from the same source.Azerbaijani 18:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Talyshtan
Here are at least 4 sources that use that name.  ,,  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.81.223.249 (talk) 18:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

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