Talk:Tamil literature/to do/Archive

Breakthrough into the Mysteries of Indian Civilization The ancient civilization of this country has a record of 5000-7000 years of archeology in the form of epigraphs, artifacts, and monuments Etc. It also has tradition and belief running to timeless past. Literature Record dating to 3000 years at least in Two languages that is Sanskrit and Tamil. Myths of time immemorial and Oral tradition apart. This country has been the land of confluence of various forces the Gods, Demons etc. This country has also been the pioneer of civilization, of knowledge, of Gurus, of Incarnations, a way of life on earth, a path finder. Such a country has also been banned by influence of feudalism and its values and isolation of common man and oppression against him. Seeds of such a dichotomy were sowed in early Sanskrit writings which language had been appropriated by the elite the ruling class who were grouped as Arya (Nobles) Though they do not form a race during the initial stages they consolidated slowly during the medieval period. The distortion created by the varna- ashrama dharma with varied interpretation had been the root cause hate in the current day society. Page 1 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 This apart the story of Indian civilization takes us to the Indus valley which is the first known settlement thus far though more explorations are revealing settlements across the subcontinent during a period earlier to this. A complete biography of this civilization could be written but for the mystery of the script that reveals it.Early attempts to reveal it pointed to Dravidian settlements though this had been contested right through by Aryan lobby. The missing link continues to be an area of distortion and exploitation by various interested group who would like to appropriate the civilization. While the entire Sanskrit literature is abound by Dichotomy of Indian culture reflecting dominance of one over the other ,efforts are on in pioneering works of Dr.Loganathan to set things right. The discovery of Sumerian as Archaic Tamil is a breakthrough in this direction Efforts are also on to unravel the Indus script as Proto- Tamil. A new ground has been laid in retrieving Sanskrit into its base Tamil. It is being concluded that it is only a stream of Tamil. Let us now begin with realising Sumerian as Archaic Tamil: Quote [The more he knows about either, the better. But even after lesson five of "Teach yourself Sumerian", an experienced linguist will already be able to discern the type of language, whether it has an ergative sentence structure (Sumerian yes, Tamil no), whether it is flexive or agglutinative or isolative, etc. etc. So when the professor of Sumerian at my Alma Mater dismissed the Dravidian connection, I know his knowledge of Dravidian doesn't match his knowledge of Sumerian, yet I wouldn't dismiss his opinion as entirely uninformed.-By Dr.Loganathan.] Here we have tried to retrive â€¦Â¤Â§ÃÃƒÂ¢Ã‚Ã½(Sumerian)suruppak neri(code) into Tamil: 1. [u] ri-a u sud-ra ri-a ( In those distant days, in those far remote days) 2. gi ri-a gi bad-du ri-a ( In those nights, in those far-away nights) 3. mu ri-a mu sud-ra ri-a ( In those years, in those far remote years) 4. u-ba gestu.tuku inim.galam inim.zu-a kalam-ma ti-la-am ( In those days, the intelligent one, who made the elaborate words, who knew the (proper) words, and was living in Sumer . 5.Suruppak gestu.tuku inim.galam inim.zu-a kalam-ma ti-la-am ( Suruppak - the inelligent one, who made the elaborate words, who knew the (proper) words, and was living in Sumer Page 2 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 "cuudu"chudar=the primordial ray. 2.Ã¾ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚Â¨Ã Ã€Ã±ÃŽÂ¨Ã Ã¾ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚ =irul soozhndha ap pandaiya kawlam. 1. Â°Ã· Â±ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚ Â°Ã· ÃÂ¼Ã· Â±ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚=oor vilangiya ath thol kawlaththil. 3.Ã£Â§Â¾Â¡Ã· Â«ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚ Ã£Ã ÃÂ¼Ã· Â«ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚ =moothor arindha am mudhal kawlam. 4.ÃÃ•Ã€Â¡Ã¬ÃŒ Â§Â¸Â¡Ã»Â¦Â¾Â¡ÃŒÃ²Ã Â±Ã‰ ÃÃ‰Â¸Ã„Ãµ Â±Ã‰ ÃÃ… Â¸Ã‡Ãµ ÃÂ¾Â¢ Ã¾Ã¸ Â¬Ãµ =ÃÃ•Ã€Â¡Ã¬ÃŒ Ã¾Ã°Â¼ Â§Â¸Â¡Ã» Â«Ã…Ã½ ÃÃ‰Ã¬ Â¸Ã„Ãµ Â±Ã›Ãµ ÃÃ… Â¸Ã‡Ãµ Â¯Ã» Ã¾Ã¸Ã„Ãµ.Â§Â¸Â¡Ã»=code laid down by suruppak with extraordinary brillianceÃÃ‰Ã¬ Â¸Ã„Ãµ Â±Ã›Ãµ ÃÃ… Â¸Ã‡Ãµ Â¯Ã» Ã¾Ã¸Ã„Ãµ lived in sumeria 5.Â°Ã· Â§Â¸Â¡Ã» Â¦Â¾Â¡ÃŒÃ²Ã Â±Ã‰ ÃÃ‰Â¸Ã„Ãµ Â±Ã‰ ÃÃ… Â¸Ã‡Ãµ ÃÂ¾Â¢ Ã¾Ã¸ Â¬Ãµ =the intelligent one who divised the code lived in sumer. Gestu can be Â§Â¸Â¡Ã»=Â«Â¸Å Ã²=Â«Â¸Ã¬Â§Â¸Â¡Ã» Ã…ÃŒÃ²Ã nig.nam kal-kal-en nig-e me-kal-kal ( You appreciate something, it appreciates you).Â¿Â¡Ãµ Â¿Â¢Â¸ÃºÃ—Â¸Â¨Ã„ Â¸Ã¼ÃˆÂ¡Ã¸.Â«Ã½ Â¿Â¢Â¸ÃºÂ§Ã… Â¦ÃÃ¶ Â¸Â¡Ã°ÃŽÃµ Ta.Â¿Â¡Ãµ Â¿Ã¸ Â¿Â¢Â¸ÃºÃ—Â¸Â¨Ã„ Â¸Ã¼ÃˆÂ¡Ã¸.Â«Ã½ Â¿Â¢Â¸ÃºÂ§Ã… Â¦ÃÃ¶ Â¸Â¡Ã°ÃŽÃµ repetition of words like kal-kal,nil-nil as reverberating sounds either to stress a point or to strech a meaning is even today found in pinglish(nigerian english)down-down means far down.go-go means go fast right now. One must keep in mind that @ the time sumerian tablet were written there must not have been grammar limitation or that the tablets followed colloquial slangs.here kal should be interpreted as kalvi ,gnyan,kal -kal is to stress a point that we should be abreast with information on our surrounding to know the truth. i think this interpretation could be accomodated linguistically. This duplication of words occurs in sanskrit sloka which says rogawn mochaya mochaya awyur vardhaya vardhaya Ta/ÃÂ¦ÃÃƒÂ¢Â«Ã½:. nikaznam naa-kal jii kukuuyidu. Â¿Â¡Ãµ Â¿Â¢Â¸ÃºÂ¨Ã… Â¸Ã¼Â¸Â¡Ã…Â¢ÃŠÃ½ Â¯Ã»Ã‡Ãµ ÃŒÃ•Â¸Â¢ÃŽÃµ jii might have existed earlier in tamil now avilable in sanskrit. tamu.moo kan.Gim iGi. Kan.kan ( My son, your eyes should be brilliant like the sun). Â¾Ãµ Ã£Ã¬Â¸Ã± Ã¾Â¨Ã Â¸Â½Ã¸ÃŒÂ¸=let thy vision throw radiance of the sun he-su-he-za-a nanna li-bi-in-du-ga za-a-akam bi-in-du-ga That one has not recited as "Known! Be it Known!" of Nanna, that one has recited as a "Tis Thine!" Â²Ã Â²ÃÃ… Â¿Ã½Ã‰Â¡ Ã¾Ã„Â¢ Ã€Â£Ã‚Â¢Ã½ Ã Ã¬Â¸, Æ’Â¡Â«Â¸Ãµ Ã€Â£Ã‚Â¢Ã½ Ã Ã¬Â¸ (this could be-Â§Â¸Ã™ (Ã»Ã…Â¢)- Â§Â¸Ã‡Â¡ Â¿Ã½(Ã‰Ã„Â¡)ÃˆÂ¡Ã¶ Ã¾Ã•Ã´Ã€Â¢Ã½ÃªÂ¸ Â¯Ã» Â«Â¸Ãµ (Ã¾Ã•)Ã€Â¢Ã½ÃªÂ¸. By questioning to the deeper consciousness and acting acccordingly one purifies ones soul. 124 ki-gim dagal-la-za he-zu-am That you are broad as the earth -- be it known! Page 3 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 Â¸Â£ÃºÂ¹Â¢Ãµ Â¾Â¸Ã¸Ã„ Æ’Â¡Â« Â® Ã Â¬Ãµ! Ã¾Ã¬(Â¸Â¢)(refer to earth)(kig)Ã¾ÃµÂ¾(imdunimdu= refer to you)Â«Â¸Ã„Ã† Â§Â¸Ã©(Ã˜)Â¬Ãµ an-gim mah-a-za he-zu-am That you are lofty as Heaven-- be it known! Ã…Â¡Ã½ Â¹Â¢Ãµ ÃÂ¡â€¹Â« Æ’Â¡ Â® Ã Â¬Ãµ!(Â«Ã­ÃŒ Ã¾Ãµ ÃÂ¸ Â¬Ã† Â§Â¸Ã©(Ã˜)Â¬Ãµ!)that this vast expanse queried be it known 135. nin-ki-aga-an-na-me-en mir-mir-zu ga-am-du Oh my lady veloved of An, I have verily recited your fury! Â¿Â¢Ã½ Â¸Â¡Ã­Â¸ Â¬Ã±Â½ ÃÃ½ ÃÂ£Ã· ÃÂ£Ã·Æ’Â¤ Â¹Â¡Â«Ãµ Ã Ã¬Â¯=Â¿Â¢Ã½Â¸Â¢ Â«Â¸ Â«Ã½Ã‰Â§Ã Â±Ã½ÃÂ¢Ã· ÃÂ¢ Ã·Ã™Â¸ Â«ÃµÃŽ (Ãª).Â±Ã½ Â«Ã½Ã‰Ãµ Â§Ã€Â¡Â¿Ã…Â§Ã‡ Â±Ã½ ÃÂ¢Ã ÃÂ¢Ã·Ã©Â¸(fury) Â¬Ãµ Â±Ã½Ã•. 123. an-gim mah-a-za he-zu-am That you are lofty as Heaven-- be it known! Ã…Â¡Ã½ Â¹Â¢Ãµ ÃÂ¡â€¹Â« Æ’Â¡ Â® Ã Â¬Ãµ!(Â«Ã­ÃŒ Ã¾Ãµ ÃÂ¸ Â¬Ã† Â§Â¸Ã©(Ã˜)Â¬Ãµ!)that this vast expanse queried be it known 124 ki-gim dagal-la-za he-zu-am That you are broad as the earth -- be it known! Â¸Â£ÃºÂ¹Â¢Ãµ Â¾Â¸Ã¸Ã„ Æ’Â¡Â« Â® Ã Â¬Ãµ! Ã¾Ã¬(Â¸Â¢)(refer to earth)(kig)Ã¾ÃµÂ¾(imdunimdu= refer to you)Â«Â¸Ã„Ã† Â§Â¸Ã©(Ã˜)Â¬Ãµ 125. ki-bala-gul-gul-lu-za he-zu-am That you devastate the rebellious land- be it know ! Â¸Â£ÃºÃ…Ã„ Â¦Â¸Â¡Ã¸Â¦Â¸Â¡Ã¸Ã– Æ’Â¡Â« Â® Ã Â¬Ãµ! (Ã¾Ã¬(your/its) Ã€Ã„ÃŒ-{Ã…Ã¸Ã„ÃŒ} (strength) Â¯Ã»ÃŒ Â¯Ã»(from the innermost) Â¯Ã†(plough) Derive your strength from the innermost. 125a kur-ra gu-de-za he-zu-am That you roar at the land - be it known! ÃŒÃ½Ãˆ ÃœÃ‚Â¢Â§Â¼ Æ’Â¡Â« Â® Ã Â¬Ãµ! =ÃŒÃ¼Ãˆ ÃœÃŠÃ†(ÃœÃŠÂ¼)you will bounce back. 135. nin-ki-aga-an-na-me-en mir-mir-zu ga-am-du Oh my lady veloved of An, I have verily recited your fury! Â¿Â¢Ã½ Â¸Â¡Ã­Â¸ Â¬Ã±Â½ ÃÃ½ ÃÂ£Ã· ÃÂ£Ã·Æ’Â¤ Â¹Â¡Â«Ãµ Ã Ã¬Â¯=Â¿Â¢Ã½Â¸Â¢ Â«Â¸ Â«Ã½Ã‰Â§Ã Â±Ã½ÃÂ¢Ã· ÃÂ¢ Ã·Ã™Â¸(ÃÂ¢ ÃƒÃ©Â¸) Â«ÃµÃŽ(Ãª).Â±Ã½ Â«Ã½Ã‰Ãµ Â§Ã€Â¡Â¿Ã…Â§Ã‡ Â±Ã½ ÃÂ¢Ã ÃÂ¢Ã·Ã©Â¸(fury) Â¬Ãµ Â±Ã½Ã•. 24. uLukaL eenliillee aal siiyimma Â¯Ã™Â¸Ã» Â²Ã±Ã„Â£Ã¸Â§Ã„(Â±Ã½Ã‰Â¢Ã¸ Ã¾Â¨Ã„) Â¬Ã¸ ÂºÂ£ÃµÃ (Â«Ã†Â¢Â¨Ã) 25. iin-anna saaGki paartta utu-eekaL Â®Ã‰Ã½Ã‰Â¡(Â«Ã½Â¨Ã‰Ã‚Â¢Ã½) ÂºÂ¡Ã­Â¸Â¢(Â¦ÂºÃ¶Â¨Â¸ Ã€Â¡Ã·Ã²Â¾ )Â¯ÃÂ²Â¸Ã» Â¯Ã(Â¯Ã‚Ã·Ã³Â¾-Ã£ÃÃ…Ã·) Â§â€ Â¸Ã¸(Â§Â¸Ã™Ã­Â¸Ã») 26. niitaah kaaLka uunuta munsiiyee Â¿Â£Â¾ Â¿Â¢Ã²Â¾Ãµ) Â¸Â¡Ã»Â¸(Â¸Â¡Ã¸Â¸Ã») Â°Ã›Ã²Â¾(Â°Ã›Ã•Â¸-Ã¾ÃƒÃ²Â¾Ãµ Â¯Ã•Â¸-Â¦Ã…Ã¶Ã‚Â¢Ã¸Â¸Â¡Ã‚) Ã“Ã½ÂºÂ£Â§Ã‚ 27. il iisakkunRa kiishnee edu Ã¾Ã¸ Â®Å ÃŒÃ½Ãˆ(Â®Ã†-ÃŒÃ¼ÃˆÃµ)Ã¾Ã¸Ã„Ãƒ(house) ÃŒÃ¼ÃˆÃµ Â¸Â£Å Â§Ã‰ Â±ÃŽ (Â¸Â£Â§Ã† Â¿Â£ÃŽÃµ)Â¦Ã…Ã‡Â¢Â§Ã‚ Page 4 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 (society) Â¦Â¾Â¡Â¼Ã•Ãµ. 28. tamu uurunakiinee kuuv mun.iduvee Â¾Ã“ Â°Ã•Ã‰Ã¬Â¸Â¢Â§Ã‰(Â°Ã· Ã¾Ã‰Ã¬(Â¾Â¢Ã·)Â¦Â¸Ã‰) Ãœ Ã“Ã½Ã‚Â¢Â§Â¼ (ÃœÃ…Â¢ Ã“Â¨ÃƒÃ‚Â¢Â¼) 29. Kootiyum eeNliille emmana sii Â§Â¸Â¡Â¾Â¢Ã”Ãµ(ÃŒÃŠÃ”Ãµ) Â²Ã±Ã„Â£Ã¸Â§Ã„(Â±Ã½Ã‰Â¢Ã¸ Ã¾Â¨Ã„) Â±ÃµÃÃ‰ ÂºÂ£ {ÃÃ‰ Â¬Ã†(Ã²Â¾Â¢Ã–Ãµ)}- ÃŒÃŠ Â«Â¨ÃÃ´Ã€Ã Â±Ã½ ÃÃ‰ Â¬Ã†Ã²Â¾Â¢Ã–Ãµ Ã¾Ã¸Â¨Ã„. 30. Ninmoo iin-anna aataavumun. tamuzi Â¿Â¢Ã½Â§ÃÂ¡(Â¿Â¢Ã½ Ã“Ã½) Â®Ã‰Ã½Ã‰Â¡(Â«Ã½Â¨Ã‰Ã‚Â¢Ã½) Â¬Â¾Â¡Ã—Ã“Ã½(Â¬Â¾(â€ )Ãƒ(Ã“)Ã—Ãµ Â¾Ã“Æ’Â¢ (Â¯Ã±ÃŽÃµ Â°Ã†Â¢) Now it is getting proved that that the base of sanskrit is Tamil: Let us see this by my retrivals: The word sanskrit should be splitted as sa-krit and read as hathirutha. For all the manipulation of the consonants and creation of four order including for sa-sa,sha,shah,ha are with the help of ha and it may be the corruption of "ha-thiruththam " that it became to be called as sanskrit.Sanskrit is Tamizhin Ha-thiruththam etymologically it could be hathiruth-hathrith-sathrith-sanskrith.ÂºÃÃ·Ã´Ã€Ã‚Â¡ÃÂ¢,Â¬Ã…Â¡â€ Ã‚Â¡ÃÂ¢=Ã¾Â¨Â¾ Â¾ÃÂ¢Ã†Â¢Ã¸ ÃÂ£Ã°ÃŒÃµ Â¦Ã€Â¡-Ã˜Ã=Ã‚Â¡Â§Ã Â§ÂºÃ·Â§Ã€Ã½=ÂºÃÃ·Ã´Ã€+Ã‚Â¡ÃÂ¢, Ã‚Â¡Â§ÃÃ…Â¡Â¸(Â¬ÃŒÂ¸)Ã‚Â¡ÃÂ¢+Â¬Ã…Â¡â€ ,Â±Ã½ÃˆÂ¡Â¸Â¢ÃƒÃ. The first verse in rgkrit tamil retrieved: Â«Ã¬Â¿Â¢Ãµ Â®Â§Â¼ Ã’Â§ÃƒÂ¡Â¸Â¢Â¾Ãµ. Â¿Â¢Ãµretained still in kannada(Â¿Â¢Ã½) Â«Â¸Ãµ(Â¯Ã»Ã‡Ãµ-internal fire) Â®Â§Â¼ (equivelance)Ã¾Ã°ÃŽ(ignite)purohit=Ã€Â¡Ã·Â¸Â¼Ãµ(vast expanse) lexically pawrkadam/parkadam/porkadam/porkitham/porhitham/purhitham/purohitam Ã‚Ë†Ã½Ã‚Å Ã‚ Â§Â¾Ã…Ãµ Ã•Ã²Ã…Â¢Æ’Ãµ Â§â€ Â¡Â¾Â¡ÃƒÃµ ÃƒÃ²Ã‰ Â¾Â¡Â¾ÃÃµ Â±Ã½Ã›Â¨Â¼Ã‚ Â§Â¾Â¨Ã… Â¯Ã‚Ã·Ã…Â¢Â¼Ãµ ,Â§Â¸Â¡Ã·Â¾Â¡Ã•Ãµ(Â§Â¸Â¡ÃƒÂ¢Ã‚Ã…Ã•Ãµ)Ã¾ÃƒÃ²Â¾Â¢Ã‰ Â¾Â¡Ã¸-Â¾ÃÃ·. Â«Ã¬Ã‰Â¢(Â¿Â¢Ã½ Â«Â¸Ãµ)Ã¢Ã·â€ Â¢(Â¦Ã€Â¡Ã­Â¸Â¢) {Ã¢Ã·}-Ã…Ã¥Ã€Â¢Ã·(Ã…Ã•ÃÂ¢Ã½) Ã•â€žÂ¢Ã€Â¢Ã·(Â¯Ã•Â¸Â¢-Ã€Â¢Ã½) Â®Â¼Â§Ã‚Â¡(Â®ÃŽÂ¨Â¼Ã‚) Ã¡Â¾Â¨Ã‰Ã· Â¯Â¾(Â¯Ã³Â¾Â¨Ã‰) â€¦Â§Â¾(ÂºÂ¡Ã·Ã³Ã/Â§ÂºÃ·Ã²Ã) Ã…Â¡ÃµÃ‰(Ã…Â¡Ã‰Ãµ) Â²â€ Ã…Ã¬(Â±Ã˜Ã…/Â²Ã¼ÃˆÂ¢Ã‚)-â€žÂ¾Â¢(Â¸Â¾Â¢). ---Â«Ã¬Ã‰Â¢Ã‰Â¡(Â¿Â¢Ã½ Â«Â¸Ãµ) ÃƒÃ‚Â¢Ã(Ã¾Â¨ÃˆÂ¨Ã)â€°Ã›Ã…Ã²(Â¸Ã›Ã…Ã²/Â«ÃÃŒÃ…Ã), Â§Ã€Â¡â€žÃµ (Â§Ã€Â¡Â¸Ãµ/Â¦Ã€Ã•ÃŒÃµ)( Â²Ã…(Â²Ã…Â¢) Â¾Â¢Â§Ã…Â¾Â¢Â§Ã…(Â¾Â¢Â¨Â¸ Â¾Â¢Â¨Â¸)(astonishment)(unlimited) Ã‚â€žâ€¦Ãµ(Ã‚Â¡Â¸Ã‡Ãµ/Ã‚Â¡Ã­Â¸Ã™Ãµ)Ã…Â£ÃƒÃ…Ã²Â¾ÃÃµ(Â¾Â£Ã…Â£Ã·Ã…Ã‡Ã·Â¾Ãµ Â¬Ãµ)/(Â¾Â£Ã‚Â¢Ã· Ã…Ã‡Ã·Â¾Â¨Ã Â¬Ãµ). Â«Ã¬Â§Ã‰(Â¿Â¢Ã½ Â«Â¸Ãµ) Ã‚Ãµ(Â±Ãµ) Ã‚Ë†Ã½Ã‚Ãµ(Â²Ã¼ÃˆÃµ/Â±ÃƒÂ¢+Â«ÃƒÃµ) Â«Ã²Ã…ÃƒÃµ(Â«Ã²ÃÃ…ÃƒÃµ-Â¬Ã¼Ãš Ã…ÃƒÃµÃ’) Ã…Â¢â€°Ã…Â¾â€ (Ã…Â¢Â¨Ã‡Ã…Â¨Â¾) Ã€ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢Ãƒ(Â«)â€¦Â¢(Ã€Â¡Ã· Â§Ã€Â¡Ã¼ÃˆÂ¢) â€¦ Ã¾Â¾(Â±Ã¶Â¾/Â¯Ã‚Ã·Ã³Â¾) Â§Â¾Â§Ã…â€žÂ¤(Â§Â¾Â¨Ã…Ã¬ÃŒ) Â¸Ã®ÂºÂ¾Â¢(Â¸Ã¼ÃˆÂ¾Â¢/Â¸Ã¼ÃˆÃ). Â¿Â¢Ã½ Â«Â¸Ãµ Â±Ãµ Â²Ã¼ÃˆÃµ(Â±ÃƒÂ¢+Â«ÃƒÃµ) Â«Ã²ÃÃ…ÃƒÃµ(-Â¬Ã¼Ãš Ã…ÃƒÃµÃ’) (Â«Â¾Ã‰Â¡Ã¸)Ã…Â¢Â¨Ã‡Ã…Â¨Â¾ Ã€Â¡Ã· Â§Ã€Â¡Ã¼ÃˆÂ¢ Â±Ã¶Â¾/Â¯Ã‚Ã·Ã³Â¾ Â§Â¾Â¨Ã…Ã¬ÃŒ Â¸Ã¼ÃˆÂ¾Â¢/Â¸Ã¼ÃˆÃ(Â¯Â¸Ã³Â¾Ã). ---Â«Ã¬Ã‰Â¢Ã·(Â¿Â¢Â¨Ãƒ Â«Ã¬Ã‰Â¢) Â§â€ Â¡Â¾Â¡(Â§Â¸Â¡Ã·Â¾) Â¸Ã…Â¢Ã¬Ã¬(kalvi/Â¸Ã¼Â¸)-ÃƒÃâ€ Â¤(â€ Â¥ÃÃƒÃœ Ã·Ã³Ã/ÃœÃƒÂ¢Ã²Ã/Â¯Ã®ÂºÃƒÂ¢Ã²Ã) â€¦Ã²Ã‚â€°(Ã‚Ã²Ã‚Ã¬-Â²Ã¼ÃˆÂ¢Ã‚Â¸) ÂºÂ¢Ã²Ãƒ(ÂºÂ£Ã·Â¾/ÂºÂ£Ã•Â¨Â¼Â¨Ã) â€°ÃƒÃ… (Â¸ÃƒÃ…Ã¸) Page 5 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 Â¾Ãâ€ Â§Â¾Â§Ã…Â¡(Â¾Ãµ Â«Â¸Ã² Â§Â¾Â¨Ã…Â§Ã‚Â¡) Â§Â¾Â§Ã…Ã€Â¢Ã·(Ã€Â¢(Ãˆ)Ã·(here it refers to God) Â§Â¾Â¨Ã…Ã‚Â¡Â¸Ã°ÃŽÃµ). Â¿Â¢Â¨Ãƒ Â«Ã¬Ã‰Â¢ Â§Â¸Â¡Ã·Â¾ kalvi/Â¸Ã¼Â¸ â€ Â¥ÃÃƒ-ÃœÃ·Ã³Ã/ÃœÃƒÂ¢Ã²Ã/Â¯Ã®ÂºÃƒÂ¢Ã²Ã Ã‚Ã²Ã‚Ã¬-Â²Ã¼ÃˆÂ¢Ã‚Â¸ ÂºÂ£Ã·Â¾/ÂºÂ£Ã•Â¨Â¼Â¨Ã- -Â¸ÃƒÃ…Ã¸ Â¾Ãµ Â«Â¸Ã² Â§Â¾Â¨Ã…Â§Ã‚Â¡ Ã€Â¢(Ãˆ)Ã·(here it refers to God) Â§Â¾Â¨Ã…Ã‚Â¡Â¸Ã°ÃŽÃµ. Gruha could be a Corruption of Old Tamil Word Koorai Which goes to the root Kooru(Pyramid is the todays meaning of this representative structure)Kooru/koorai/kurai/kruhai/gruha. Rig Veda May be subtle tamil word Ã¾Â¨ÃƒÃ¬ÃŒ(kadavul) Â§Ã…Ã»Ã…Â¢.it means whole lot of changes in meaning of the word Rg veda. Rig/iraigu/iraikku -veda has been connected to the meaning a bodyofknowledge Now i feel ve+da+veelvi(sacred oblation to god.This is substantiated by the first verse of rg veda . Â«Ã¬Ã‰Â¢Ãµ Â®Â¦Ã‡ Ã’Â¦ÃƒÂ¡â€ Â¢Â¾Ãµ.I conclude by giving the correct retrieval for rg veda=Ã¾Â¨ÃƒÃŒ Â§Ã…Ã»Ã…Â¢. As i said sanskrit branched out of her mother Tamil by exploiting and interpolating on the ayutha ezhuththu.Creating two intermediary order of consonents. If can intelligently remove some of these order from sanskrit words and replace them with tamil consonents we are looking at the mother of sanskrit that is Tamil. Eg:agni-fire in tamil it can be fit as : Agani=Aga+ni ni might be referral to godly attribute sacredity,and Aga-fire (horrific).We can try to interprete sanskrit sentences by applying this method to prove it is an offshoot of tamil. the examples presented are put in tamil characters as follows: Â´Â¼Ãµ-flow,-pronounced as "odam"ÂµÃ°Â¼Ãµ-run,flow again,but read as "ottam" In the first case the consonent 'Â¼' is read as "da" since the same occurs in the middle of the word so in the second order there can be only two order of the consonents evn modern english exemplifies this like: p,b. t,d. c,j. k,g. h=is ha in sanskrit and ayutha ezhuththu in tamil. most of others are combination consonents like f=p+h, q=ku=k+u. w=u+u x=a+k+s z=s+h+e+e. Ã€Â¡Â¸Ãµ=part.Ka tranforms to Ga in the middle. Ã€Â¡Ã¬ÃŒ=beetle nut.here Gu gets reduced to 'ikku' Page 6 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 Now i will talk about the intermediate orders produced by sanskrit Kha=ik+a+ha. gha=ig+a+ha/ik+ha+a+ha,presuming that ga second order consonent is produced by combination of ik+1/2ha. cha=ich+a+ha jha=ij+a+ha/ich+ha+a+ha tha=it+a+ha dha=idh+a+ha/ith+ha+a+ha fa=ip+a+ha bha=ib+a+ha/ip+ha+a+ha The uniqueness in Tamil is giving importance to mey ezhuththu and in combination with vowels produce consonents Ith+a=tha this is not in sanskrit. So what gets exploited so much so is the "ha"produced by tamil ayutham. ---One has to remember that second order has no written recognition in tamil pa becomes ba in any place of the word other than at the start of the word but cannot be expressed in writting it is a oral convention. words starting with consonents will have expressed first order. r,s,l,zha normally do not start a word except with the help of a consonent preceding. "r,s,l,zha normally do not start a word except with the help of a consonent preceding" even vowels can precede them. ya=is formed by=A+i+a The peculiarity of cha is that at any place other than the first in a word it lightens to sa and preceding with another half consonent ich it regains cha status. Language learners in the formal education pattern are not fed with good logic resulting in bad pronounciation which we often see. kha/gha" as "Â¸Â·Â«' and with that eliminate the need for 'â€¹' in the script? "Â¸Â·Â«'can be "Â¸Â·"and "ig"can be"Â·Ã¬"."ghan"(musik)can be"Â¸Â·Â¬Ã½".it could be "Â¸Â·Â¡Ã½" . Like this we transliterate sanskrit text but my idea goes beyond this. Since sanskrit is a derived language from tamil i am in the order of fixing sanskrit to tamil orgin not to attempt adapting tamil to sanskrit as i told you that sanskri is a derived language. I had already told you that we have to eliminate intermediate Page 7 of 9 The Hub :: View topic - Breakthrough in Indian civilizational studies 12/23/2004 consonents from sanskrit words and adopt tamil equivalent to prove that the world is classical tamil or sumerian tamil.There may be varients in the process of development cycle of sanskrit. One thing comes to my mind is that rg veda could be a product of 1st tamil sangam. tamil and sankrit are now two school of thoughts emerging from their mother sumerian tamil.While formulation of rg veda there might two school of thoughts one to restrict phonetics to first order consonents and second to elongate to intermediary order this also the reason i believe that we can reduce sanskrit to its orginal tamil form. May be we are making some progress here that may lead into understanding better how from the same basic phonology of Sumerian the phonology of Sanskrit as different from it developed. The need to induce large volume of words into the vocabulary could have resulted in thinkers of those days to extrapolate (ha)to form multitude of permutations in the language and form a new structural varient from sumerian tamil. sanskrit and c.tamil should then share same roots for their ancestors are same that is dravidians and not aryans. Attempt towards this proposition ahs already started and let us hope in the near future we will be able to substantiate this view.

I am amused by the discussion on Aytham here.Earlier i had posted

once on this topic and how Aytham is a precursor to the development of Consonantal orders specially now visible in Sanskrit.Somehow that didn`t suit well for the moderator here. Anyway i would to throw a gist of the development of this word as i understand which may be sounding orderly for this discussion group. I believe Aytham is the base for the development of consonantal order and hence Sanskrit thereof. For this the premise is the consonant are primarily expressed in base order namely ka,cha,ta,tha,pa,.Any change in this structure occurs due to compounding of Aytham.Some call it Ahenum and represented by diatrix. One should clearly distinguish between sound generation and its encryption for the purpose of Iyar tamizh. In case isai tamizh generation of sounds are understood in a said pattern and it is devoid of encreyption.So when you say Thyagaraja kriti is encrypted it only means an attempt but the sounds cannot be exactly replicated in written form. In case of iyar tamizh or for that matter any language the pattern is set and ofcurse reset over the years. There is always a gap ,even in sanskrit which has developed four orders of consonant,between what is pronouced and what is captured in script,this is due to the following: Limitations of sound mechanism vis-vis voice chord capability of individual (individual to individual). Replication and standardisation leading to dialects or vice-versa that is dialects developing to languages.one of the reason that sanskri remained unchanged is because it was never spoken or atleast by the masses. But even sanskrit developed many languages or atleast influenced many including Dravidian(this grouping i do not subscribe to). Confusion of order syntax: There are no rules in SK which definitely point as to why a particular order was used in a particular place in the word.Some have argued that with the four order you are capturing the sounds produced in a better manner.Then the question arises why four, again no answer. For instance if one captures: Agni in sk the Ga consonant is of third order it could however be captured as Akhni,Akni,Aghni depending on phonetic receipts thus standardisation in Sk is difficult leading to lot of offshoots. Where as Agni is very well fitting into Tamil vocabulory it cannot be pronounced anyother way and even if done so it can be captured in this way only. Thus there is no scope for confusion in Tamil.Perhaps Sk through panini tried to encrypt Isai part of that language which i believe is a varient of Tamil. Remember Tolkaapiyar has clearly distinguished between Iyar and isai tamizh and stated that the rules for isai is beyond the scope of his analysis in his book.Infact he has stated the the isai tamizh transcends all rules laid by him for iyar tamizh. "These are very personal views of the author and his solemn research it is possible that a diametrically opposite view is held for which no responsibility is taken by this article author."

I would like to directly dwelve into the book instead wasting time on describing such agreat work which already has a place of eminance in Tamil. 1.The letters A« to Naý form the scheme of alphabet design in Tamil. 2.There are total 30 independent sounds and three dependant sounds. 3.A measure of sound length is equivalent to the wink time of the eyes. 4.All sounds of a vowel have one measure except long vowels Which has two measure. Aw,EE,Oo,AeAe,Aai,Oo,Oou.¬,®,µ,°,¶,³,². 5.No sound produce three measure if necessary the same can be done. 6.There are twelve Vowels. 7.Eighteen consonantswith ýNa at the end. 8.A consonant has 1 and 1/2 measure. 9.Three dependant sounds have 1/2 measureþ,´,·.1/2E,1/2O/1/2Ha.

I would like to Start this series befitting to this group with my own interpretation of this Classic. I would like to directly dwelve into the book instead of wasting time on describing such a great work which already has a place of eminance in Tamil. 1.The letters A« to Naý form the scheme of alphabet design in Tamil. 2.There are total 30 independent sounds and three dependant sounds. 3.A measure of sound length is equivalent to the wink time of the eyes. 4.All sounds of a vowel have one measure except long vowels Which has two measure. Aw,EE,Oo,AeAe,Aai,Oo,Oou.¬,®,µ,°,¶,³,². 5.No sound produce three measure if necessary the same can be done (This is the Flexibility visualised by Tolkaapiyar which should be read in relation with the higher orders of consonants derived from primary orders). 6.There are twelve Vowels. 7.Eighteen consonantswith ýNa at the end. 8.A consonant has 1 and 1/2 measure. 9.Three dependant sounds have 1/2 measureþ,´,·.1/2 E,1/2 O,1/2 Ha.

---«,¬,þ,®,¯,°,±,²,³,´,µ,¶,·. Dependant sounds are þ,¯,·. ¸,¹,º,»,¼,½,¾,¿,À,Á,Â,Ã,Ä,Å,Æ,Ç,ÈÉ. akshara / > ezuttu) Since you had raked up this issue let me explain: ±Ø+òÐ=the meaning of ezhu is arise see ezhuchchi ezhu also means a state of defining an art of explaining thing,See ezhudhu means to write to express.Compare this with akshara=A+(k)shara=shara can be a series ,a row, it is defined as representing Alphabets or syllable. Aksharawnawm Akawrosmi.Whereas the same when converted into a verb or an act of expression looses its importance and Likhita/Lekhi comes to rescue. Akshara can be retrieved to Tamil as A+chawrndha(Belonging to A (metaphysical))=or adhanai chawrntha=belonging to that. While the verb representation is retained in Ezhuththu as ezhududhal (Kriya). I hope this would suffice to clarify your doubt. I would request you to use Murasu Anjal and bear with me. Yawdhum oorae yawvarum kaelir.

A vowel is always combined after the consonant(1/2measure) to release it full shape. ik,iC,it,ith,ip,ir, ì,î,ð,ò,ô,÷are consonant of strong expression.

A vowel is always combined after the consonant(1/2measure) to > release it full shape. > ik,iC,it,ith,ip,ir, ì,î,ð,ò,ô,üare consonant of strong expression. > > ¹,»,½,¿,Á,É.-sounds of mild nature. Â,Ã,Ä,Å,Æ,Ç,-sounds of intermediate nature.Mellinam,vallinam,idaiyinam as they are called. The evaluation of Vowel-consonant relation in Tolkappiyam is par excellance which could not be located by me while reading Sanskrit or Aphabhramsha Grammer. The categorisation of Vowel-consonant in relation with sound produce into strong/mild/intermediate orders of sounds shows the depth of grammar roots in Tamil prior to Tolkappiyam. Tolkappiyar do not claim himself as originator of grammar in Tamil in the very early part of the work he states ÜðÊ ±ØÐ¾ø ±ýÁÉ¡÷ ÒÄÅ÷(thus states the "Bard/poets/learned"[No sound produce three measure if necessary the same can be done]This could be the primary discovery towards agglutination in the later stage.The reference to Bards points to such similar works preexisting. ¯½÷ó§¾¡÷ ¸ñ¼Å¡§È(as visualised by the enlightened in the very next sentence when he talks of measure of a sound in a syllable. ¦ÁöÂ¢ý ÅÆ¢§Â ¯Â¢÷ §¾¡ýÚ ¿¢¨Ä§Â=Beutifully classifying Vowels as soul and consonant as body and stating that through the body the soul enlivened which resulted in vowel consonant. He classifies vowels again as : «,þ,¯ as pointer. ¬,²,µ as questioner. «Ç À¢ÈóÐ ¯Â÷¾Öõ ´üÚ þ¨º ¿£¼Öõ ¯Ç ±É ¦Á¡Æ¢À þ¨º§Â¡Î º¢Å½¢Â ¿ÃõÀ¢ý Á¨ÈÂ ±ýÁÉ¡÷ ÒÄÅ÷. This is a authoritative text on how Vowels and consonants beyond this existed in Tamil.Which only means iyar thamizh has the set framed by Tolkappiyam with isai thamizh having additive sounds of vowels and consonants. This should be read in conjunction with No sound produce three measure if necessary the same can be done. The flexibility of Tamizh grammar in recognition of sounds and combination thereof cannot be more precisely expressed than this.

«õ ãÅ¡Úõ(the categorisation of consonants into strong mild and intermediate) ÅÆí¸¢-þÂø ÁÕí¸¢ý ¦Áö ÁÂíÌ ¯¼ý ¿¢¨Ä ¦¾Ã¢Ôí¸¡¨Ä. In that categorisation. ÅÆí¸¢Â þÂø ÁÕí¸¢ý if the original nature of "vowel-consonants" so changes(I propose marungin as change maru+ngin is other side maruppu ,mawtru.). Consonant fades(mey mayangu). udan nilai theriyun kawlai(¯¼ý ¿¢¨Ä should be pointing to the vowel adjuncting the consonant forming the new vowel consonant.¦¾Ã¢Ôý¸¡¨Ä thus exposites.)For the consonant fades in sound vowel explicits with force to form higher orders.The higher orders can thus be formed according to Tolkappiyan. I would like to have Dr.Logas view on this discovery i hope the conventional meaning assigned to this verse is thrashed. I thus conclude the first chapter on tolkappiyam with ny own discovery of how the thirteenth vowel or (ha) increases the order of consonants to be precise vowel-consonants. The formation of Ha itself may be a vowel-consonant though i feel it has neutar quality. the expression could be reduction in the measure of consonant Ikì in conjunction with a«.It could be quarter measure of Ik +one measure A like it occurs for m in (om). Having laid the sound structure Tolkappiyar went on to discuss some combinatory method of consonants.Like: ð,ø,ü,û are followed by ¸,º,À(Vowel consonant). Of these ø,û can be followed by Â,Å. Mild consonants are followed by hard consonants. Of these ý,ñ are also followed by ¸,º,À,Á,Â,Å,». Â,Ã,Æ are followed by hard consonants and ¹. Á is followed by Å. excepting Ã,Æ other consonants can have immediate double occurances.

Lesson definitely refers to a structure framed by Tolkappiyar when he started with expression of syllable and sound system. Second he talks about some usages of syllables and occurances. Third with how sounds emanate.etc and so forth. ¦Áö ÁÂíÌ¾ø is a state of trance where ¦Áö ±ØòÐ fades are gets so embedded that vowel becomes more explicit and emanates higher orders. A pertinent question that you have raised that it occurs only in strong consonants¸,º,¼,¾,À,yes true since this is how sanskrit might have generated higher orders.In case of mild and intermediate consonants they are independent sound systems devoid of known orders but as tolkappiyar states þ¨º ¾Á¢ú may have orders in them too. Let us now see what Tol has to say about this Letter which i had been stating as source of higher order consonants. ÌÈ¢Â¾ý ÓýÉ÷ ¬Ô¾ô ÒûÇ¢ ¯Â¢§Ã¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ÅøÄ¡Èý Á¢¨ºò§¾ ®È¢Âø ÁÕí¸¢Ûõ þ¨º¨Áò §¾¡ýÚõ ¯ÕÅ¢Ûõ þ¨ºÂ¢Ûõ «Õ¸¢ò §¾¡ýÕõ ¦Á¡Æ¢ ÌÈ¢ôÒ ±øÄ¡õ ±Øò¾¢ý þÂÄ ¬Â¢¾õ «·¸¡ì ¸¡¨ÄÂ¡É.

After the short vowels occurs the Ayutha. Incombination with such vowels preceding the ayutha the strong "vowel-consonants"follows.«·Ð.

®È¢Âø(here should be construed as the fusion between vowel that precedes the ayutham and the "strong vowel-consonant"that follows,This fusion results in culmination of musical notes.I would like to say that higher orders are representative of musik and may be that is the reason Lord Krishna said that he represents Sawman among vedas) ÁÕí¸¢Ûõ þ¨º¨Áò §¾¡ýÚõ.

¯ÕÅ¢Ûõ þ¨ºÂ¢Ûõ(in structure and musical notes) «Õ¸¢ò §¾¡ýÕõ(it looks alike)

¦Á¡Æ¢ ÌÈ¢ôÒ ±øÄ¡õ ±Øò¾¢ý þÂÄ¡(Sound which cannot be expressed in writing) ¬Â¢¾õ(ayutham) «·¸¡ì(represented by this sound akhkawk) ¸¡¨ÄÂ¡É (exposited)

On Vadachchol: þ­Âü¦º¡ø ¾¢Ã¢¦º¡ø ¾¢¨ºî¦º¡ø Å¼¦º¡ø ±ýÚ «¨Éò§¾ ¦ºöÔû ®ð¼î ¦º¡ø§Ä. 1 «ÅüÚû,þ­Âü¦º¡ø¾¡§Á ¦ºó¾Á¢ú ¿¢ÄòÐ ÅÆì¦¸¡Î º¢Å½¢ ¾õ ¦À¡Õû ÅÆ¡¨Á ­¨ºìÌõ ¦º¡ø§Ä. 2 ´Õ ¦À¡Õû ÌÈ¢ò¾ §ÅÚ ¦º¡ø ¬¸¢Ôõ §ÅÚ ¦À¡Õû ÌÈ¢ò¾ ´Õ ¦º¡ø ¬¸¢Ôõ ­þÕ À¡üÚ ±ýÀ ¾¢Ã¢¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢. 3 ¦ºó¾Á¢ú §º÷ó¾ ÀýÉ¢Õ ¿¢ÄòÐõ ¾õ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢É§Å ¾¢¨ºî¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢. 4

"Å¼¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢ Å¼ ±ØòÐ ´Ã£­ ±Øò¦¾¡Î Ò½÷ó¾ ¦º¡ø ¬Ìõ§Á. 5" "Flexed words are those with higher order Vowel-consonants and the same when taken to Tamil have to be adapted to the tamil phonetic orders or retrieved"

º¢¨¾ó¾É ÅÃ¢Ûõ þ­¨Âó¾É Å¨ÃÂ¡÷. 6 Here one should see in aphorism no.6. above were a words structural deformity is addressed due to borrowings and adaptations. On vadachol which i had told that it should be construed as vadaintha chol a word that is flexed with phonetic orders. While Tol classifies words asþ­Âü¦º¡ø, ¾¢Ã¢¦º¡ø, ¾¢¨ºî¦º¡ø, Å¼¦º¡ø.iyarchol,thirichchol,thisaichchol,vadachchol,The interpretation for the word vada has yet remained Northern which indicates primarily Sanskrit while it may be so I do not find reality in that meaning since thisaichchol has already been taken to mean words of twelve different regions if Tolkaappiyar wanted to indicate directions he would a placed a suitable word.Vada hence should be construed as vadaintha(Flexed)Indicating the vowel- consonants orders available in sanskrit and other such languages. "Flexed words are those with higher order Vowel-consonants and the same when taken to Tamil have to be adapted to the tamil phonetic orders or retrieved"

¯Ã¢î¦º¡ø ¸¢ÇÅ¢ Å¢Ã¢ìÌõ ¸¡¨Ä þ­¨ºÂ¢Ûõ ÌÈ¢ôÀ¢Ûõ ÀñÀ¢Ûõ §¾¡ýÈ¢ ¦ÀÂÃ¢Ûõ Å¢¨ÉÂ¢Ûõ ¦Áö ¾ÎÁ¡È¢ ´Õ ¦º¡ø ÀÄ ¦À¡ÕðÌ ¯Ã¢¨Á §¾¡ýÈ¢Ûõ ÀÄ ¦º¡ø ´Õ ¦À¡ÕðÌ ¯Ã¢¨Á §¾¡ýÈ¢Ûõ ÀÂ¢Ä¡¾Åü¨Èô ÀÂ¢ýÈ¨Å º¡÷ò¾¢ ¾õ¾õ ÁÃÀ¢ý ¦ºýÚ ¿¢¨Ä ÁÕí¸¢ý ±î ¦º¡ø ¬Â¢Ûõ ¦À¡Õû §ÅÚ ¸¢Çò¾ø. Again urichchol are those words which when exposites itself by placement its orgin has to be traced WRT Sound,attributes and marks.These are those words that can also stand alone and display meanings.These words have to be clearly studied independantly and WRT context it is in.These can be foriegn words adaptations as well.

¯Ã¢î¦º¡ø: Rig Veda May be subtle tamil word þ¨ÃìÌ(iraiku) §ÅûÅ¢(veelvi). it means whole lot of changes in meaning of the word rg veda Rig/iraigu/iraikku -veda has been connected to the meaning a body ofknowledge Now i feel ve+da=veelvi (This is the Tamil word sacrificial fire).There are consonent transformation in this form that is noticed in Sanskrit when it became a separate stream .(sacred oblation to god. This is substantiated by the first verse of rg veda . «ìÉ¢õ ®¦Ç Ò¦Ã¡†¢¾õ i conclude by giving the correct retrieval for rg veda=þ¨ÃÌ iraiku §ÅûÅ¢ veelvi. Ru+cha identified as mantra of rg veda is ru=irai/rai/ri/ru. cha=chol iraichol=chol is word= irai refers to god. The first verse in rgkrit tamil retrieved: «ì¿¢õ ®§¼ Ò§Ã¡¸¢¾õ.I glorify Agni, the high priest of the sacrifice, the divine ¿¢õ(nim)retained still in kannada(¿¢ý) «¸õ(¯ûÇõ(ullam)-internal fire) > > ®§¼ ilae(idae) > > > > > (equivelance)þðÎ(ittu)like(idli-idduli)(ignite) purohit=À¡÷¸¼õ(pawrkadam)/purohitam(vast expanse) > > > > > lexicallypawrkadam/parkadam/porkadam/porkitham/porhitham/purhitham/pu rohitam

Tol allows production of sounds but restricts representation through syntaxes and rules and points all the sounds that cannot be represented as Vadachol and fixes grammar rule for adoption.This scheme i feel is more scientific that letting loose people to pronounce a consonant differently and searching for scripting within the four orders as well as beyond.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Veeraraghavan"