Talk:Taniwha

Initial text
I edited the first article cause it sounded like a textbook I read in school back in the eighties, round bout the same time they still taught that left handed people were evil and beating children with canes was a good thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.100.12 (talk) 10:34, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

some deleted material for future reference
"Taniwha were often regarded as guardians to Maori tribes or as pets or friends to specific historical/legendary people (much as sharks were throughout much of Polynesia, especially Tonga). In most creation myths however taniwha were wrongly described as terrible monsters. (NB By and large, sharks feature much less often in Maori legend than they do in other Polynesian societies, again suggesting that the concept has been transferred across cultures, but given another form)."
 * funny how its easier to remove than to find a reference..moza 00:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Fresh Water Monsters possible, say scientists

 * Giant reptilian predators with a lifestyle comparable to modern freshwater dolphins may have made their home in ancient rivers, researchers say.

While dinosaurs dominated the land, a variety of reptiles reigned in the seas, and included dolphin-shaped ichthyosaurs and the Loch-Ness-Monster-like plesiosaurs. In the new study, scientists investigated another similar beast — extinct carnivores known as mosasaurs, generally thought of as gigantic finned marine lizards similar and perhaps even related to present-day monitor lizards.

The mosasaur fossils were unearthed starting in 1999 from an open-pit mine in the Bakony Hills of western Hungary. The researchers discovered several 84-million-year-old specimens, ranging from small juveniles to adults 20 feet (6 meters) long that had limbs like a land-dwelling lizard, a flattened, crocodilelike skull, and a tail unlike other known members of the mosasaur family.


 * http://www.livescience.com/25698-mosasaur-ruled-ancient-rivers.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Paul Moss (talk • contribs) 11:32, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't see the relevance of this to the article, since these creatures died out long before humans evolved. There are mosasaur and similar fossils in New Zealand and it is possible that they might have added to legends of Taniwha. We would require a source making such a connection before we could add something to the article. However, Taniwhasaurus could be added as a "See also".- gadfium 20:07, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Koru?
So what's this stuff about taniwha being depicted as covered in 'koru'? Is there any basis to that? The mosasaur stuff and the cryptid stuff is off the wall too. This article needs a good cleanup I think Kahuroa 20:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * "Haumuri Bluff. Where: Approximately 20km south of Kaikoura, Okarahia Sandstone, Tarapuhi Grit, and Conway Siltstone (Piripauan - Hamurian Stages); Laidmore Formation When & Who: Amateurs collected material prior to that by Haast in 1869, however it was Haast’s, followed by those of Travers in 1871 (Taniwhasaurus oweni and Mosasaurus mokoroa), and McKay during 1872-73, that the historic early descriptions by Haast (1870) and Hector (1874) became widely known. Unfortunately, material recovered during extensive collecting at Haumuri Bluffs by McKay in 1876, was lost following arrival in the United States. Hector himself arranged for this large shipment aboard the Theresa Cosulich for later examination by that icon of early American fossil collecting, Edward Drinker Cope. Refer to the web-pages headed "Current and Future Work" for detail of the recoveries from early in 1999. What: Material diagnoses to genus and species level: Mauisaurus haasti, Tylosaurus haumuriensis, Taniwhasaurus oweni, Mosasaurus mokoroa.  Material diagnosed to family level only: A range of plesiosaurid, elasmosaurid, polycotylid, mosasaurid, and reptilian material".  I dont think they called it Taniwhasaurus as a joke, I do think they were quite serious, and  its verified as far as I can tell, at the website url given. I have seen the mosasaur jaws with my own eyes, in the care of the GNS, lower hutt, New Zealand. I went to the school that used Taniwharau as the official emblem, HTC, Hamilton New Zealand. I dont know much about covered in Koru though, perhaps 'adorned with' may be a better way of saying it. Youre welcome to improve the article, and discussion here is cool, so thanks for that.moza 19:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting, but not really very much to do with taniwha there. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia-quality article about a Māori mythological creature, so what scientists decide to call a fossil species that predated the arrival of humans on earth by millions of years cannot inform us about the taniwha. All it would warrant is a note to say that a mosasaur was named 'taniwhasaurus' in honour of the mythological creature. The taniwha's ultimate origins lie in the myths and legends of tropical Polynesia, and there is, I'd wager, no evidence that Māori found mosasaur bones and equated them with taniwha. I am going to delete the covered with koru thing. The only creatures adorned with koru are Air New Zealand jets. The whole thing about Māori mythological creatures is that their appearance was almost never described in much detail in the stories, so there was no one way to 'depict' them in drawings or carvings. The pictures in the article could be better too. A good picture for this article might be of a carving from a meeting house, depicting a taniwha - but even that would not constitute a 'standard' way of depicting taniwha - just one person's interpretation. Kahuroa 21:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I more or less agree with a lot of what you say, but not your method of trampling on something I care deeply about. Yes it is a very personal experience by its nature, and I cant be bothered with fighting about it, but I do care about respect, and killing other peoples effort with little discussion is not going to be a a very productive way of airing the available information. what do i have to do, go off and create a Taniwhasaurus article? If you have images with permission then by all means place them, but perhaps a bit sad to delete other pics. I have many suitable, but i simply wont risk offence by their usage, I KNOW that placement and reproduction of such imagary is critically important to many new Zealanders. Cant you see the relationship between the carving shapes and styles and the shell and fern that I posted? Wikipedia is more than what either of us think or want it to be, and deletionist behaviour is, in my opinion, incitement to edit wars, both sad outcomes from what could be the greatest sharing experience in the history of civilisation. is there any way we can collaborate with respect? Isnt there enough room for the previous material? I think its great that you want to fix it, but maybe all aspects can find a place. I cant bring my taniwha dreams to the article yet, but they are relevant, perhaps psuedo-science, but who can label art with authority anyway. I dont think that science can fully cover this subject, by its nature it must be a personal interpretation, and I note that you seem to agree it is a multi-faceted beast. I understand the rules, but often in wikipedia the information comes ahead of the verification, ie there is a time component to the process. I believe the Taniwharau image is worthy of placement at the very least, I spent 4 long and difficult years under that emblem, and i will replace it if no one else does. It symbolizes institutionalised power that was fierce and maladjusted. It existed for about 70 years and is an important component of enzed history, for of us.  Maybe  it appears to be something different, but its not intended. I recently saw a taniwha in the night sky, its called an asterism, and its a shape made up of several stars. My friends have drawn the kiwi for instance. The sky was extremely important to the Pacific peoples, and such asterisms are of high value for navigation and cropping, the two most important survival activities in times past. If we can table our concerns maybe we can build a truly excellent article, one that is certainly deserving of this subject, and not trivialised. cheers.moza 09:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * re-looking at the article it is more comprehensive than i thought, so write off what i said about that, its not too bad and is looking more respectful, and I wont put that image back, thanks for cleaning it up, it did need it. lets focus on references and more info about the core subject. How do I go about getting permission to use such images that you uploaded? if its in the public view its legally ok, but i want more than that, i want the 'owners' of such objects to participate in their image set and setting here, and thats difficult.moza 09:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I appreciate your bighearted attitude. I took the picture of Ureia, so that made that easier. Suggest you log on to Wikimedia Commons and set up an account, browse around and see how things work. What I want is for Taniwha as an article is that it is true to its topic - which has to be the traditional Māori stories about taniwha - pure and simple. To deal with the approach you seem to want, it would have to be a separate article, but if you want to include the personal experiences of yourself and others you might run up against the Wikimedia policy against original research: No original research - anything you add has to be able to be verified, that is, it must come from a reliable source Reliable sources that others can refer to and verify the information from: Verifiability. There are articles on Wikipedia that deal with what some might call 'pseudo-science' - but if they last it will only be if they are written from an encyclopedic point of view. And why not a separate article for Taniwhasaurus if you think you have the material? Kahuroa 19:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
 * yes the article is quite excellent now, so a good job well done! no i dont want personal experiences, thats a confusing aside and only suitable for discussion pages, unless documented elsewhere. An artists work thats published though, could be valid. I have an unshakeable faith in the connection between Taniwha and Mosasaur, and I have been exposed to some kaumatua with similiar ideas, i just need to find the papers he gave me. He said he had been searching many years for that connection. I understand and comply with the verification and un-originality concepts overall, its just that until someone gets down and does the job properly like you have. There is often a long period of minimal content, and i was suggesting that a greater range of speculative material might be more stimulating in terms of people getting involved. Then that content can move to subset articles if worthy. yes i tracked your image back and i have a wiki commons account but i'm only doing a smuch as i feel these days, i have increased astronomy and photography in my life so wiki drops down a notch. But i will be back for sessions about stuff i can verify and contribute images for. I drove past long-swamp a few weeks back and just didnt stop and take pics, it doesnt seem like Taniwha territory to me, and i wasnt inspired. I do want to capture the essence/s of the thing/s, if i can. Its one way of bringing new material to wiki and the world, and clearly part of the cultural diversity of this corner of the planet, and will be valued increasingly as globalisation creates blandness everywhere.moza 14:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Taniwharau verification available
http://www.fraser-high.school.nz/schoolbadge.htm How the School came by its Badge and Motto, by Mr W. Fraser, Principal 1924 - 1949 moza (talk) 12:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation
There are several ways of pronouncing taniwha (as there are several ways of pronouncing the wh), but only one is given. Nurg (talk) 07:03, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've only ever heard wh pronounced as f in this word. NZ English speakers tend to have a long a at the end as in father. Kahuroa (talk) 21:04, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I presumed (but don't know for sure) they might pronounce it differently in Taranaki/Whanganui or the far north. Do you know? Nurg (talk) 05:42, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You would expect so, especially now that regional pronunciations are cool, but I haven't direct experience. Anyway do we need to mark every possible dialect pronunciation? Kahuroa (talk) 20:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, IMO, we don't need to note every dialect pronunciation, or necessarily any pronunciations, as it is an encyclopedia, not a pronunciation dictionary. I don't mind if no pronunciation is given - I think that would be better than implying there is only one pronunciation. Maybe none of this really matters too much. Nurg (talk) 11:38, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep. If people really do think that giving an IPA transcription implies there is only one way to say something, then you're right, we shouldn't bother with them Kahuroa (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Etymology
For the possible origin of the word 'taniwha' from the Pali word 'tanha', 'evil', and general discussion of taniwha as ego-myth, see "Hekenga o te Taniwha: the Buddhist origin of the Polynesian Races", Niu Paremata, 2011 ISBN 978-0-473-18891-7; Dalberton Library publication no.30 Koroke (talk) 08:42, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Taniwha as ego-myth
Taniwha are first mentioned in a note by Capt. Cook in 1777. As "snakes and lizards, eight feet long and with the diameter of a man's body - that burrow in the ground and are killed by lighting fires at the mouths of these holes". Polack ("New Zealand", vol.2, 1838) briefly mentions them as "subterranean monsters that can cause disasters". The derivation of "taniwha" from the oceanic 'tanifa', shark, is hence problematic and likely to have derived from a later confusion, since legendary taniwha are land-dwelling, or cave-dwellers, sometimes taking the shape of sharks or whales or living in water-holes, lakes or rivers. This, with water being a common metaphor for 'mind', indicates the origin as an ego-myth. George Orwell, in "Inside the whale", 1940, takes a similar stance over the biblical tale of Jonah and the fish. As also does the tale of Ao-kehu the taniwha-slayer, who after climbing into a hollow log was swallowed by it, but cut his way out using two maripi. Confirming the taniwha/ego identity also are the many stories in which the taniwha is not killed, but tamed after subduing to a harmless condition. Early New Zealand books offer variant spellings such as Tanewoa, Tanewa, Tanniwha, and Tamiwha. Early New Zealand books offer variant spellings such as Tanewoa, Tanewa, Tanniwha, and Tamiwha. Edward Tregear, in "The Maori Race" 'recognized the Aryo-Semitic nature of the taniwha by connecting it on the one hand with the Sanskrit 'tan', 'stretched out' and on the other with the Hebrew Leviathan...By the introduction of the great Arabian serpent, the happy family is now complete' (Arabic 'tannin','a great serpent', the same in origin as the Maori 'taniwha', 'a great water monster'). If we posit a Sri Lankan origin of the Maori race, it is immediately apparent that the Pali word 'tanha', or evil, is just this. As a fundamental religious concept, it represents 'longing for experience (via a chain of reincarnations), In other words, Hotupuku, ('craving mental food') the most famous taniwha, which was slain by the wartrior Te Pitaka. A name suggestive of the chief Pali canon, the Tipitaka, or Three Baskets of Buddhist Scriptures, that 'kill tanha'. Which has been compared by J.E. Carpenter to the three kete of maoritonga. (nga kete matauranga).The Christian notion of the 'resurrection of the dead' is thus parallelled in the cutting open of the taniwha (killing of the ego),at which momentous event for each slayer, the swallowed or erased memory of past lives)or 'Salvation' occurs. Both Tregear and Bokalamulla have remarked on the similarity of the Maori and Sinhalese languages and customs, as appearing to derive from Sanskrit and Pali, particularly in place-names (Greetings from Lanka", Te Ao Hou, no.66, 1969). The sacred legendary Buddhist Mt. Meru has been equated with the Polynesian goddess of Hades Miru. Horatio Robley noted the resemblance of early Hei Tiki amulets to images of the Buddha carved in green jade or emerald. Even the word 'Maori' suggests the Maurya Empire founded by Chandragupta Maurya around 321 BC, which endured till 184 BC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.239.111.116 (talk) 08:15, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

contd.
Both Tregear and Bokalamulla have remarked on the similarity of the Maori and Sinhalese languages and customs, as appearing to derive from Sanskrit and Pali, particularly in place-names (Greetings from Lanka", Te Ao Hou, no.66, 1969). The sacred legendary Buddhist Mt. Meru has been equated with the Polynesian goddess of Hades Miru. Horatio Robley noted the resemblance of early Hei Tiki amulets to images of the Buddha carved in green jade or emerald. Even the word 'Maori' suggests the Maurya Empire founded by Chandragupta Maurya around 321 BC, which endured till 184 BC. Koroke (talk) 09:22, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

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Ludicrous source.
The article cites a Blogspot 'essay' as a source. Which in of itself would fail to pass WP:RS. Even worse, this ridiculous essay claims that "taniwha are not just mythological beings without any basis in reality, but that they are based on real dinosaur sightings", based on pseudoscientific creationist drivel. Clearly none of this belongs in the article. but rather than deleting it, it would probably be worth trying to find some better sources. Māori mythology is a subject deserving of proper scholarly coverage, and I am quite sure that such material can be found to support the article, without it being used as a platform for halfwitted hogwash imported from elsewhere. 86.130.97.5 (talk) 10:47, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Since nobody has responded, I've removed the matrial sourced to this nonsensical essay. 86.130.97.5 (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2018 (UTC)