Talk:Taoist sexual practices

Methodology for "Retrograde Ejaculation"
Quote: ''The second method involved the man applying pressure on an area between the scrotum and the anus, and cause a retrograde ejaculation into the bladder. Needham called this method "coitus thesauratus".''

From what I know, the ejaculation should not go into the bladder. Instead, by applying the pressure the right place, it should lead out into the whole body. If it goes to the bladder, it will get lost, just as if you had ejaculated. I read this in a book saying, that you could take a look at your urine to check if it went to the bladder.


 * Response: Actually you are right, the ejaculation was supposed to go up into the brain, according to the ancient Chinese, but the semen either has to come out or go into the bladder, as far as I know, it can't go anywhere else. The explanation in the article is referring to modern physiology, and not what the ancient Chinese believed.Zeus1234 20:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

tagging
Added Cleanup tag after reading the article, which includes the following:

''One of the best kept secrets of Taoist Magic is the attainment of whole body orgasm. The technique is very simple. At the moment of orgasm, one channels the orgasmic feeling from the genitals into the middle tan tien (ie. Chest) and from there one spreads the feeling throughout the body/mind.''

Unsourced claims about the alleged "secrets" of "Taoist Magic" have no place in an encyclopedia. No useful explanation is given as to how one might perform said technique, but it's nevertheless purported to be "very simple", followed by a specious description of "orgasmic feeling" and the supposed ability to channel it. This is unverifiable original research, and doesn't belong in this article or any other. If you're knowledgeable on the subject and have access to some reliable sources, please edit this article to meet Wikipedia's standards of quality.

attribution
Greetings. I've removed the "philosophical" attribution, because such practises are actually a bit more phenomenal, originating in the alchemical school. --Fire Star 06:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

clean-up tag
I've rewritten a sginificant part of the article using scholarly sources (The Wile book I added to the bibliography), and will revamp the exercise section sometime in the future. I also removed the cleanup tag. Zeus1234 22:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

title
Which is correct, Daoist or Taoist? The title of the article is "Taoist...", but the text has "Daoist" throughout. Speciate 00:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)speciate

As the person who wrote the article, I will explain this discrepancy. There is a debate over what the correct spelling that is summarized in this article Daoism-Taoism Romanization issue. I personally prefer the usage Daoism, as it is in pinyin and better represents the pronunciation of the word. In all the articles about Daoism I have contributed to, (with the exception of Taoism for obvious reasons), I have retained this usage. If someone wishes to change everything to Taoism, they are welcome to do so, but I prefer the usage of Daoism.Zeus1234 04:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Modern vs. Ancient Practices
Recently 68.107.91.165 made significant edits to much of the article that I had originally written. While some of the edits were useful (and others were not), they do not describe the same 'qi' or 'jing' that are listed in the article. My sources (all pre-1500) clearly indicate that qi is what is lost through ejaculation, and not jing as the edits by 68.107.91.165 would have us believe. Of course it is entirely possible that modern day practices use this description of jing. Because there seems to be a difference between the old and modern practices, please footnote. That way if there are contradictions, they can be backed up at least, and not ruthlessly deleted. Many of the edits by 68.107.91.165 contained a great deal things like 'it is debated.' These need footnotes!!! Also some of 68.107.91.165 edits were chatty in style and read life a self-help manual. This does not conform with Wikipedia's article guidelines.

I have now referenced most of my sources. All of the first sections of the article are about practices before 1500!! Please when someone wants to add something based on modern day practices, please do so in the 'Modern Practices section.' Obviously the practices have changed since the 1500s, and it is important to differentiate between them.Zeus1234 19:45, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Footnoting and Sources
Because some of the 'new age' aspects of this topic are contrversial (just look at the controvery section, which needs footnotes!), please include footnotes and references when adding something under the auspices of 'new age' sexual practices. If this is not done, there is nothing to back you up, and your addition could very well be deleted.Zeus1234 19:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Controversy
We don't need to delete this edit about Reich. This edit, as well as many other edit in this article(!) need sources, but, as a student of Reich this is a valid statement. Please wait for a source. I'll find one, but not right now. If you delete this particular edit, delete the rest of the unsourced material as well.--al95521 06:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

All the parts of the article I have written have sources. Try and find a source for the Reich edits you have made. Zeus1234 13:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph is basically misleading. "Daoist Sexual Practices" are not "bedroom arts" (Simplified Chinese: 房中术, Traditional Chinese: 房中術). In fact there is no such thing, really, as "Daoist Sexual Practices" unless you consider abstinence a sexual practice. Bedroom arts are emphatically NOT what Daoists practice in China. If you go to a temple or a monastery you will not see people having sex or debating orgasms or any of this other stuff you mention. The term "Daoist sexual practices" is a marketing invention by people like Mantak Chia to give legitimacy to their practices and techniques. There's nothing wrong with that, but it would be a mistake to let people think that Daoist Sexual Practices, which implies the practices of Chinese Daoists is the same thing as Bedroom arts. They certainly draw on a related body of literate and ways of thinking about the body, but they are NOT the same thing, by any means! (James Miller, Queen's University, Canada) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.208.220.171 (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Taoist belief in sexual promiscuity
I'm unsure of the current practices of sexual promiscuity in the overall Taoist religion. I was wondering if someone would be able to fill in a section regarding this matter. My thoughts towards the belief of Taoism is still in personal debate. Thanksly Aeryck89 14:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Are you talking about Taoism as it is currently practiced? Or how it was in the past?Zeus1234 16:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In both times, if possible. As the perception and the practice of it in modern times, as with the past fashion. Like with perception pre-marital sex in the religion, how it is seen as ethical or not and whether it is detrimental to the overall concept to maintaining a wholesome state of belief as with pertaining to the virtues of Taoism. More into this, how it is seen in modern times as with, if there was any activity of this sort in those associated with this religion in the past and what effect would take place if this was infringed. Thanks man, Aeryck89 17:42, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I am lacking some sources at the moment, but i will attend to the task.


 * There has been scientific research which supports these claims. Control experiments on creatures ranging from Nematodes to Mid-sized Mammals have produced results that link non-ejaculation to longevity. Every Biological System prioritises re-production over all else; even survival. (Eg; salmon, Spiders, Shrews as good examples). The manufacture of Motile Gametes requires disproportionate resources when compared to other cells. (Source; Mantak Chia, Douglas Abrams; "the multi orgasmic man")


 * Amongst many others, I can Vouch for the authenticity of the practices. An orgasm is a regular spasm-contraction which can occure in any part of the body. However I would not pretend to state that such practices are without potential difficulties and dangers. Karmira 22:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Mantak Chia cannot write WP:RS for us. He is a New Age guru, who merely asserts to be a Taoist. His works do not pass WP:MEDRS. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:37, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

White Tigress
I don't know anything about this subject, but I notice that in one book cited at the end of the article (Hsi Lai, The Sexual Teachings of the White Tigress: Secrets of the Female Taoist Masters), much of the text is devoted to the theory that to obtain qi, the woman engages primarily in fellatio. Should something on this be added to the article? Famspear 22:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal
There's a dubious Sexual practices in Orthodox Taoism article that could either be deleted or merged here. Keahapana (talk) 23:42, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems like a good idea to merge. --Simon D M (talk) 15:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It should be deleted. There are no footnotes to support anything being said, and it is very badly written. Zeus1234 (talk) 05:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Reached their peak?

 * The sexual arts arguably reached their peak between the end of the Han dynasty and the end of the Tang dynasty.

You mean, like... "climaxed"? rowley (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone has now changed the article text to "reached their climax" :DDD 2001:558:6040:D:184B:D6F2:35B6:D9C1 (talk) 18:31, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Confucian puritanism - citation needed, PubMed check required
"After 1000 CE, Confucian puritanism became stronger and stronger, so that by the advent of the Qing dynasty, sex was a taboo topic in public life."

Could someone with access to PubMed check, if this article supports the claim: Zhang, K; Li, D; Li, H; Beck, EJ. Changing sexual attitudes and behaviour in China: Implications for the spread of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. AIDS Care. 1999;11:581–589

88.114.122.209 (talk) 21:31, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Zhang, Li and others (1999). Changing sexual attitudes and behaviour in China: implications for the spread of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10755033

Abstract
This paper discusses the changing attitudes towards sex and sexual behavior in China and its implications for the potential future spread of HIV. Two important philosophies have influenced the evolution of imperial Chinese attitudes toward sex and sexual behavior. Confucianism stressed conformity of sexual behavior within the boundaries set by society, while Taoism encouraged multiple sexual partners and prolonged sexual intercourse to promote better health and pleasure. In addition, homosexuality and commercial sex was tolerated, but masturbation was denounced. This tolerant attitude came to an end in the 17th century when the government exerted effort against all forms of extra-marital sexuality including homosexuality and masturbation. However, with the introduction of the One Child Family and Open Door policies by the end of the 20th century, attitudes toward sex and sexuality changed again. The Chinese have widely accepted premarital sex and are more tolerant toward extramarital sex. Homosexuality has begun to be considered as a legitimate lifestyle choice and attitudes towards masturbation have become more tolerant. Attitudes towards sex and sexual behavior have become recognized as an individual's responsibility as long as no offence occurs against society or other individuals, resulting to an increasing diversity of sexual behavior. Consequently, HIV infections are also rapidly increasing with heterosexual transmission becoming the most important route of transmission. This critical situation needs to be addressed immediately in order to control the AIDS epidemic in China as well as the rest of the Asian region.

PMID: 10755033 DOI: 10.1080/09540129947730

2A02:C7D:1AAD:BB00:D4CA:74E0:2123:EB5F (talk) 14:38, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Important topic; article still needs help, needs more citations and sources
This has the potential to be a top-class article, and I feel the topic is simply too important to be left as a "B-class" item. How can we bump up the quality? Featuring (rightly so!) in the Wikiprojects on Taoism, China and Sexuality, it really warrants a good going-over by a copy editor, for a start. I've tried to lay out some of the things that could be improved:

- Writing style: the article reads as though written by a non-native speaker with very good English. The language is nice and clear as a result, but not entirely elegant throughout. If I can work out how, I will try to add a "needs copy-editing" cleanup tag.

- Treatment of Chinese terms, mainly 'qi' and 'jing': at present they're inconsistently used - sometimes in scarequotes, sometimes without. It would be best to italicize them throughout (as suggested here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(text_formatting)#Foreign_terms), but whatever style is adopted should be adhered to consistently.

- Sources: I feel the article is still overwhelmingly cited from this chap Wile, and it could do with considerably more references overall. There must be plenty of other decent material out there on this subject - anyone care to add a few more citations? All the better if they're from Chinese language sources.

Longboat Girl (talk) 16:08, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

There are "New Age" texts available but could not access Chinese sources or books
I was the one that originally wrote this article about four years ago (I am a native English speaker). At least back then (things may have changed in the four years since), the vast majority of the scholarship on this topic was 'new age'. New age texts don't have any place in this article, and so that makes source finding increasingly difficult. While is definitely the best source, as his book is basically translated primary texts. Van Gulik is also a good potential source, but I had trouble obtaining his book when I wrote the article. Unfortunately, I did not consult Chinese sources because it would be too much work for me to do a literature review on the subject. There is a small chance that I can make some changes to the article, but that solely depends on my access to the books.

Zeus1234 (talk) 18:42, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

There's almost no historical evidence
Sorry to butt in here, but there's basically almost no historical evidence that most of the practices you describe in this article were actually practiced by Daoists in China. What this article is basically about is "bedchamber arts" which draw on Daoist concepts and theories but which has nothing to do with Daoist attitudes towards sex and sexuality. Most of these practices were invented in the Ming and Qing and now are perpetuated today under the title of "Daoist Sexual Yoga" or the like, but this neologism misunderstand the basic attitude of actual Daoists in Chinese history.

(James Miller, Queen's University, Canada) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.208.220.171 (talk) 16:26, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Ritual matter 房中
Much neglected use of the Chinese term 房中 is the ancestral worship in the early Han, unrelated to the "bedchamber" sphere (M.Kern, The Stele Inscriptions of Ch'in Shih-huang, 2000:178). Just a reminder :)--Shanghainese.ua (talk) 15:16, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Fiction flag
I'm really tempted to set the WP:INUNIVERSE flags on this article, the source #8, about the danger of the Million Dollar point (tm?) which the article validly points out isn't necessarily healthy, points to an article ranting about Chi blockages, re-circulating semen and a good deal of promotion for the authors new audio books. Southsailor (talk) 08:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Ricci, K. and others (2011). Sex Secrets of the Kama Sutra and other Eastern Pleasures
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxlYm9va3NmcmVlNzc3fGd4OjQxNTBhODliZDgzMjY2ZjU

ISBN-10: 9781405362160

ISBN-13: 978-1405362160

The world of The Tao
The ancient Taoists have a lot to teach modern lovers about sex. Whereas we might see orgasm as the grand pinnacle of sexual pleasure, the Taoists believed exactly the opposite. Men were advised to refrain from ejaculation so that they could enjoy not just greater and longer-lasting pleasure with their partner, but good health, too.

History
Taoism is an ancient Chinese philosophy that advocates living in harmony with nature. The most famous taoist erotic text is The Classic of Su Nu, dates back to the 1st century. It takes the form of a Q & A session between the Yellow emperor and Su Nu (his female advisor on all things erotic).

Holding back
Su Nu cautioned the emperor against ejaculating: “When Ching (semen) is emitted the whole body feels weary.” She claimed that exercising self-control and “calming the passion” would allow more love to grow between lovers. this advice does not mean that men may never ejaculate, but that they should make their ejaculations infrequent to preserve their yang.

Understandably, many modern men would not want to forgo the pleasure and release of ejaculation, of course. Fortunately, there is another way to take advantage of taoist teachings: to do specific sex exercises (see p144), and use the passion-extending techniques to gain greater control during sex, so that men can enjoy the bliss of a long lovemaking session (or several) and then ejaculate when the moment’s right for both partners.

2A02:C7D:1AAD:BB00:D4CA:74E0:2123:EB5F (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

"Destroying family values"
It should be clear that Wikipedia does not endorse their rants about sex with premenarche girls. It is just an occasion to sneer at ancient folly. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2022 (UTC)