Talk:Tarja Turunen/Archive 1

Concerns
A couple things bother me about this article; I'm pretty very new to Wikipedia, so "be bold" aside, I'll cast my concerns out here before any sweeping rewrites...

This doesn't strike me as all that encyclopedic. It reads rather gushily, as if it were Tarja's PR, or a fan bio. There's rather a lot of unnecessary detail as well; e.g., three whole paragraphs about the documentary? Or the title of every single magazine in Europe that has put Tarja on the cover? Wouldn't much of this work better in the main Nightwish article (in the case of detailed band history), or simply be removed entirely? Or is it just me? Fargnax 10:19, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)


 * Since nobody seems to have objected, I've gone ahead and removed the fannish minutiae, and rephrased much of what's left (the original article was just an abridged version of Tarja's official biography, it turns out) (link fixed). The end is a bit sketchy to me, as the article (and Tarja's own bio) stopped at 2003, with guesses at what might happen in '04; I pieced together what I could. Fargnax 05:23, Dec 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think the new and improved article is a great biography of Tarja and is by no doubt, unworthy of Wikipedia. Tarja deserves to be mentioned on this site and i think whoever changed the article to look the way it is now did a GOOD job! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neostinker (talk • contribs) 17:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Who did she marry?
I noticed on the Nightwish main article that it lists her as being wed in 2003. The question is, to whom? Just noting it without any name seems a little sketchy to me but in a way understandable if this person is deliberately steering clear of the backwashed limelight coming from his wife and her band. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.233.87.9 (talk) 00:41, 29 June 2005 (UTC)

The Argentinian businessman Marcelo Cabuli is Tarja´s husband. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.222.193.82 (talk) 03:46, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Wiki links
Was this page unwikified? I can understand not wikifying television, but a lot of the stuff you unwikified might be interesting to someone reading the article. If they don't want to read the other article, they can simply not click the link. This is troubling since I can think of no benefit for removing functionality from this article. Therefore I am going to restore some of the Wiki links. ⟳ ausa کui × 21:21, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Wikifiying doesn't mean adding a bunch of unecessary links. If anything thats the opposite. These blank pages are blank because they are nor important or popular enough to have an article. Here are some pages to consider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Make_only_links_relevant_to_the_context http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(links)


 * I hope you understand why I removed so many links and I hope you get a proper understanding of what Wikifying means. --Arm 23:02, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Do you want me to describe why I unlinked each individual word or what? Heres some:

symphonic power metal = made-up category. symphonic metal and power metal already have an article so this is worthless redundancy.

Timo Turunen = not important enough for an article. What has he done that makes him deserve an article? If he becomes famous then we will make an article for him but now it's not needed. And no, simply. being related to someone famous is not enough for fame.

Tarjas solo songs, not popular songs enough for an article. Unless a song is over seventeen minutes long, caused an entire phone number to be unusable or one of the most famous metal songs of all time, I doubt how those songs are that important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arm (talk • contribs) 23:15, 1 September 2005 (UTC)


 * A lot of individual songs and albums have gotten their own articles. Heck, there is someone making an article for every individual episode of The Simpsons, I believe. Besides, not all the wiki links you removed were red links. ⟳ ausa کui × 00:22, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

And those simpsons songs are popular in their own right, Tarjas are not. Look just because a singer in a popular band makes a solo album doesnt mean that it's popular enough to warrent an article. and those blue links I removed were because of redundancy. Read the link policy and understand it. You may also try looking at other pages for an idea of where to apprioporatly put links.

If you still disagree, don't use Wikipedia. And to be on the safe side, cancel your internet connection and turn off your computer. --Arm 00:38, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

This is outrageous, Tarja is one of the best known female singers in Europe, i think that qualifies her songs to be listed. Users on Myspace will have access to her songs and she has released a single and completed a christmas tour. The soings SHOULD be mentioned. (Neostinker 17:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC))

Erm.... I agree with the above comment. There are articles about people that are FAR less well known than Tarja. For 9 years she was the lead singer of one of if not the most popular metal band in Europe - a band that went multi platinum in many contries and who regularly headlined music festivals. Apparently she's not famous enough Scottcabal 09:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Beto Vazquez
"(...) and Argentinian bassist Beto Vazquez's internationally successful album Infinity."

Beto Vazquez Infinity is a band. Visor 09:42, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
 * fixed (also i made Beto Vázquez Infinity article)--Neo139 02:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Location
"Tarja Soile Susanna Turunen Cabuli (born August 17, 1977, in Kitee, Finland). Turunen began to study music at age six, and moved to the city of Kitee at 18 to study at the Sibelius Academy. " Is she moved from Kitee to Kitee, to study in Academy, which located in Helsinki? Sorry, my English is not good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.84.91.2 (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Discography?
Shouldn't there be a discography of all the Tarja Turunen albums/singles/whatever? There is that Nightwish box thingy at the bottom, but that only deals with Nightwish albums/singles/whatever, not her solo career. On a related note, should that box thingy even be there? Crimson Shadow 02:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure there should be a discography-thing (also there's a little point in a discography yet; she has only released one single as of now). Also, I think that box should stay; people still associate her with Nightwish. Tarja and Nightwish are often mentioned in one breath. And it probably will remain that way, until Nightwish finds a new singer and Tarja releases an album that performs well on the charts. —♦♦ SʘʘTHING  (Я)  05:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tarja acheived the number one single for christmas in 2005 without Nightwish, she has had hits with tracks such as Until Dawn, Tired of Being Alone, One Angels Dream, Romeo Ce Juliet and Sadness in the night, this is not including the work she has done with the academy. I think that her songs should be on her page, just as Nightwish songs are on the Nightwish page. (Neostinker 17:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC))
 * The discography omits Tarja's second single of christmas 2006. She released "Happy New Year", which is a promotional single and wasn't sold anywhere. Should it nevertheless be in the list? Also, the Nightwish section omits the 2001 EP "Over the Hills and Far Away". There was also a 2005 collection "Highest Hopes". --194.251.240.113 23:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Response Letter
We have a link to the "open letter" by nightwish, but not to her response letter. I can't find it to link on her webpage. Anybody? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vaergoth (talk • contribs).
 * It is in Google cache. -- ReyBrujo 20:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Interview
There is an interview at http://www.muzicisifaze.com/alt_articol.php?id=25 which we may be able to use in the future to expand the article. -- ReyBrujo 03:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Henkäys Ikuisuudesta
I've mostly finished the entire page about Tarja's Christmas album, the only thing that is missing is getting the track list order (which is yet to be announced). Other than that, I don't believe there is much more needed on that page, but please go on and take a look :) If you have any comments or suggestions, feel free to contact me Halliwell3 19:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, most of the site for "Henkäys Ikuisuudesta" is now complete, track listing and album length ;) Halliwell3 20:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Links
There seems to be quite a bit of conflict about the links section, with sites getting added and removed daily. I suggest we all decide which ones are relevant and which aren't. Crimson Shadow 11:56, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know why you are deleting all the fansites listed on page except from 2. How come that no one else is allowed to add their websites as long as they are in the right language and actually works.

User:TheSatanicNun 11:23, 4 January 2007
 * Basically because your site has no Alexa rank. However, to be just, I have removed all but the official ones. -- ReyBrujo 12:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Somebody change the picture
That is the worst picture of her and I think its a horrible representation of her. I would change the picture myself but I don't know how to do any of that copyright stuff. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.4.117.101 (talk) 05:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Find a free alternative and upload it, it's not so hard.  —♦♦ SʘʘTHING  (Я)  16:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean Free alternative? Just find a picture online? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.55.185.254 (talk • contribs).
 * No, find a picture where the photographer releases it under a free license that allows to do anything, including selling it, usually Creative Commons Share Alike, Creative Commons Attribution, or GFDL. 99% of the pictures you can find online are not "free" in the meaning we want. -- ReyBrujo 21:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

How would I go about finding one like that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.4.124.63 (talk • contribs).
 * Usually, you should contact a photographer. Try going to www.flickr.com, and search for images of Tarja, then ask the users if they had taken the picture themselves (if they have picked it from a website or a magazine is not "their" image), and ask them to release the image under a free license, CC-BY or CC-BY-SA. -- ReyBrujo 16:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to let people know, Tarja will be assisting the International Book Fair down here (Argentina). I will try get a couple of good pics of her (although she will likely be using casual clothings). -- ReyBrujo 01:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Funky grammar
I know this isn't really *that* important a point to make... but who are these lemons who insist on changing "is the former lead singer" to "was the former"? Perhaps we should change "former" to "founding", "initial" or something similar so that the "was" actually makes sense. :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.209.75.72 (talk • contribs).
 * I think the problem is that "is the former" is taken as "she used to sing, but now does not sing anymore, however she is alive" while "was the former" is taken as "she used to sing in that band, but now she does not because she died". -- ReyBrujo 05:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Lemons? No thanks 87.209.75.72, I fancy an apple. On a more serious note, you can check who "have insisted on changing" by using the history tab. Also I recommend you not to refer to fellow editors anymore using 'fruity' vocabulary. It is not just rude, it's a sign of disrespect.  —♦♦ SʘʘTHING  (Я)  05:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You certainly outrank me on this site... so, point taken, I'll have to defer to your authority for now. Still, don't forget that to say that something "is rude" could be (by some) considered to be POV. WP:POV :D —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.209.75.72 (talk • contribs).
 * Nice try. The POV policy is meant for articles, not for talkpages. —♦♦ SʘʘTHING  (Я)  17:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Voice
Since Tarja is a trained opera singer, would it be a good idea to have a small section on her voice and other related items? Or since she hasn't really been in a real opera of any sort, would that just be a load of unnecessary information? Ender666999 04:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you can reference the section (adding links to interviews or experts talking about her voice) sure. What we cannot say is "Tarja Turunen has a voice matching the best ones in the world" because that is considered a personal opinion and not information. -- ReyBrujo 01:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense. I found an interview where she talks about her vocal range, but where should I put the information? Should it be a separate section or a subsection? Ender666999 03:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)


 * She is trained in lied, not opera; that is probably the single most frequent misconception about her, which she has herself countered repeatedly in interviews (in fact, she has emphasised that she does not think of herself as a classical singer, but simply a singer - who happens to have undergone classical training; she is clearly a crossover singer like Sarah Brightman). According to her blog, her range is F3 to D6. Florian Blaschke (talk) 05:56, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Lied is rather that kind of music Ave Maria, Solvejgs Song. --Pass3456 (talk) 13:19, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation of her name
Is there any way we can get an IPA pronunciation of her name? I don't speak Finnish and would like to know how her name is pronounced in its native Finnish. Perhaps any Finnish speakers on here who know the IPA can help us out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.246.153.217 (talk) 07:04, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Finnish is simply pronounced the way it's spelled, in other words all letters are pronounced as in the IPA. --Espoo (talk) 10:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How wonderful! In Spanish it is also pronounced the way it's spelled! ;-) -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not true. For example, tell me why the word "hablar" is spelled hablar and not just ablar, since the h isn't pronounced.  Also, why do both ge/gi and je/ji exist?  Wouldn't one spelling be sufficient?  Not only that, but b and v make the same sounds (yes, there are two different sounds, one is a plosive like the English b, the other is more of a buzzing sound that usually occurs between vowels but at times in other locations; however, no matter which sound is being made, the assigning of b or v to the word is totally random).  Also, let's not forget the infamous word "Mexico" which should be spelled Mejico but which the Mexican people have resisted.  In other words, Spanish is not totally spelled as it's pronounced.Joeschmoe2003 (talk) 00:49, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There are exceptions, and I doubt all the spelling differences add more than 10% of the total. Also "Tarja" is pronounced "Targa" instead of "Tarja" in Spanish language, even in Finnish. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "Tarja" is pronounced "Targa" makes no sense unless you define what you mean with those spellings. You are in any case clearly using the letters of the Latin alphabet to mean other sounds than those agreed on in the International Phonetic Alphabet, which is essentially based on the "original" use of the alphabet in Latin, which is also essentially the same as their use in writing Finnish. G was pronounced in Latin as in the English word "go" (e.g. Gallia), and that is the sound of the letter in the IPA, and the Finnish name "Tarja" is definitely not pronounced /targa/.


 * You can essentially take almost any Finnish words and indicate their pronunciation by simply writing them between the symbols "//" or "[]" (which signifies you're using the letters in accordance with IPA usage i.e. according to their original usage in Latin) because they are spelled in accordance with Latin and IPA usage. You cannot do that with Spanish although Spanish is written in a very consistent way that usually differs from IPA usage in the same way every time. That means that although Spanish does not use all letters according to their original Latin usage, pronunciation can almost always be determined from spelling. So if you know how a Spanish word is spelled, you can usally know how to pronounce it, but if you know how to pronounce it, there are often several possible ways of spelling it (only some of which may be in use) and some of these use the Latin letters in violation of their original and IPA values. Finnish, in contrast, is both spelled the way it is pronounced and pronounced the way it is spelled, which is not true for Spanish. For more info and for why Mexico should not be spelled Mejico, see Help:IPA and Mexico and Mexican_Spanish. --Espoo (talk) 11:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not discussing that. I am just saying that, in Spanish, most Spanish words are pronounced the way they are written. And you are saying the same, that in Finnish most Finnish words are pronounced the way they are written. Whether there are 1% or 10% of exceptions is little compared with the common cases. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 15:03, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As for "Tarja with j sounding like g in go", she said that was fine enough when we met her. Don't doubt it is pronounced "with j sounding like y in yes", just teasing you :-P (haven't you noticed the ";-)" in my very first reply in this thread?) -- ReyBrujo (talk) 15:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the IPA way, but I've always heard it pronounces "Taria" and i sounding like the ee in knee.Shadows and Lace (talk) 05:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Please learn a bit about pronunciation and IPA before stating such nonsense. It's certainly not spoken "Taria" but simply Tarja, as mentioned several times before. Please stop to interpret the pronunciation based from your local language. Many language, especially Spanish, pronounce letters way different than defined in the IPA. So stating that Tarja is spoken "Taria" would mean you would actually speak it ['tari:a] which is wrong. It is in fact spoken as written [ˈtɑrjɑ]. The article meanwhile also features this. Lodan (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus for move. Non-admin close. JPG-GR (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I suggest to move Tarja Turunen page to Tarja. Please speak up if you support or oppose the move.

My arguments in support: she refers to herself as Tarja. Tarja is her universally recognized stage name (see her logo, which says only Tarja, entry on musicbrainz, which lists her albums under name "Tarja"). All merchandise goes under name Tarja without a last name, and media addresses her as Tarja. Potential counter-arguments: Tarja is common Finnish name, and there are other Finnish persons known under it (see Tarja (disambiguation)). However, those are less known to English-speaking public. --Monk (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I refer myself as Roberto, not my full name ;-) I think it is fine in either way, so no explicit opposition for me. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 23:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose Tarja is indeed a very common name in Finland. And I don't really think that this singer stands out among Tarjas to the English-speaking public. In fact, I'd never heard of her, although I've heard a lot about Tarja Halonen. Tarja should by the way redirect to Tarja (disambiguation). Hús  ö  nd  02:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, her band Nightwish, I have heard of/listened to a lot. ;-) Hús  ö  nd  02:42, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I came here direct from working through some Admin:Backlog pages - I do not agree with this move and note that there is already a redirect that quickly puts the reader from Tarja to Tarja Turunen which should suffice in this case. Alternatively another name such as Tarja (musician) (such as for the artist Prince (musician) should be used. -- VS  talk 12:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - As mentioned above, her first name is not used significantly more than her full name. Aquarius • talk 19:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Mario has its article at Mario instead of Mario (character) or similar because it is the most recognized Mario in the world. A simple search for Tarja at Google reveals that Tarja Turunen gets a similar recognition. I am still neutral about this matter. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 02:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Her official website is http://www.tarjaturunen.com/ tarja.com appears to be owned by a cybersquater. 199.125.109.52 (talk) 17:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose - While I'm a huge fan of Tarja and her music I oppose the suggestion. Not because of recognition of the name "Tarja" outside of the Finnish speaking area or because of any other reason suggested above but that this article was set up about Tarja the person not Tarja the Stage Presence. I do agree that Tarja is her stage name and that she is the most widely known Tarja in the world but I still think this is about the person not the stage act. Look at Kylie Minogue for example. Her stage act is simply called "Kylie" but her article on wikipedia is "Kylie Minogue". -scottcabal (can't be bothered to log in) 86.134.235.239 (talk) 10:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Soprano?
This article claims that Tarja is a soprano, without citing any sources to back it up. I don't consider her a soprano - the majority of her work is in the alto range, and from all the songs I've heard she never rises above mezzo-soprano (Beauty and the Beast). If no one disagrees/adds a source within a reasonable time I'm going to remove the classification. -- Aseld  talk  06:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

ETA: I apologise, I did not look carefully enough. There is a reference. My issue still remains though - since when has the subject itself of a biographical article been a reliable source for factual information? I propose changing it to something like "Turunen considers herself to be a full lyrical soprano.". -- Aseld  talk  06:39, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, although these nomenclatures are fairly standard. Also, remember that subjectivity (as in "I don't consider her a soprano") should lead to a reference that agrees with you, not in an action (although, of course, lack of source is a valid one). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not my opinion that matters. It's the fact that we don't have a valid reference (according to wp:rs) for its inclusion. -- Aseld  talk  08:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I just typed Tarja Turunen and Soprano into google and there are hundred of results from different music websites i know not all of these are going to be valid but if you aren't sure maybe they can help, also its worth noting that she was member of Savonlinna (according to biog) opera choir, im guessing there are some requirements to join this but i dont know for sure. (Neostinker (talk) 12:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC))

commercial interests were bigger than her actual interest in their music
That´s what the open letter says. Marcello denies it, just read his answers, they are linked in this article. He says for example that they (Nightwish) made a decision long ago what portion of the profit everyone is entitled with. So there was no point in fighting about money at all. Therefore the sentence is not valid, it´s just one point of view. --84.169.252.73 (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Pictures
Hmm... I have my doubt in several of the images posted lately. They were uploaded in Flickr accounts by people with suspicious uploads, or that have only uploaded one image. I think the images could be investigated at Commons. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 21:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Voice types
In this article it says that the voice type of tarja is a "Lyric soprano", but the source to reffer to this says she is a light lyric soprano, and every time I try to correct that someone keeps on reverting me, here is the source Tarja Turunen >> Blog Archiv >> Fans Questions! and here is what the source says about her voice type:

"When I started my classical singing lessons at the age of 15, my teacher was teaching me as a soprano. Few years later, in Sibelius Academy my voice found a different register, colours and nuances through different techniques.

I sang a repertoire of a mezzo-soprano for many years and because of that, still today, I have rarely quite low register for a lyrical soprano. Nowadays, I see myself as a light lyrical soprano. Everybody should know that I am not a professional opera singer. I am far away from being that and I have never said I would be alike. I have never specialised myself in Opera. I studied specifically chamber music singing. I have a lot of respect for real Opera singers. Still, my voice is classically trained, but it doesn’t mean that I would be ready to sing a complete opera today. I am still learning every day new things about my instrument and it is very exciting to see the development of it."

Now I ask...can we put what the source says? or there is something Im missing? because if it is, please, tell me, I want to know--201.208.37.93 (talk) 03:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem here is the source itself. Wikipedia has a certain standard for what sources are considered reliable. Blogs are generally not considered reliable sources and further sources must be independent of the subject in question. Please see WP:Sources for more information about wikipedia policy.Plumadesabiduría (talk) 22:51, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If that was the problem to begin with why you reverted me putting lyric soprano, lefting the same source and on top saying because it was "what the source says"? please, dont try to turn back this on me if that's what you are trying, I didnt even put that source, it was there from the beggining, I just read it--201.208.37.93 (talk) 23:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
 * An older version of the article had a different source simply referring to her as a "lyric soprano". I wasn't aware the source had been changed by another editor. It didn't occur to me until later that neither source was really appropriate since they both were self attributed quotes from blogs.Plumadesabiduría (talk) 08:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Tarja you are the best   richard from Latvia  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.110.59.27 (talk) 12:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Her greatest successes ?
I don't know too much about her, I came here to find info. What I was curious to find but left without: the name of the individual songs that were her greatest hits. The article's focus is on on her albums, not the individual songs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Srelu (talk • contribs) 23:58, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Changes in progress
It would be reasonable to first discuss changes on that page. The last changes of DreamNight show a lot of commitment for Tarja. I think that this could just be a bit much childhood intimacy for an encyclopedia. Lets talk about it. I´m the last one to reject any changes. --Pass3456 (talk) 18:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

@Yekaiv: you add beautyful pictures. But screenshots could be a legal problem. I know because there was a lot of file deleting in the Nightwish-pictures section lately. --Pass3456 (talk) 18:23, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

@Thedarkocean: the linked page does not contain this information. Maybe you can find a better one. --Pass3456 (talk) 22:39, 8 January 2011 (UTC)


 * To start with: Please excuse some grammar / spelling mistakes I'm surely about to make, because I'm not a native speaker, thanks.


 * Ok, now my thoughts on the article:


 * is it really necessary to have "drums" and "traverse flute" in the instruments - section of the infobox? I've seen a picture of her playing drums, but she is not really (know as) a drummer, isn't she? It's the same with the traverse flute, I think. ✅


 * the infobox says she is active since 1995, but Nightwish wasn't founded before 1996. ✅


 * Which of her albums (or Nightwish's albums) have been released by Century Media? as I found none on the official century media page, I removed CM from the list ✅


 * I don't really like the list of associated acts - Nightwish is ok, of course, but e.g. she only made one song with the Scorpions. So either there should be all the people from this list in the infobox, or that list should be replaced by a list of her "usual" bandmembers like Mike Terrana etc. although those don't really have solo carreers. ✅


 * "She now collected over 50 platinum and gold awards (solo career and Nightwish era) and sold more than 5.2 million copies worldwide." - is there a source for that? If not, I think it shouldn't be in the article. removed


 * The picture in the section referring to her "early life" is not necessary imo, especially, because it is not from that "era". moved to the "reception" - section ✅


 * The "early life" section is based almost entirely on Turunen's statements from various interviews (afaik). Maybe we can find those interviews (and some more sources).
 * It´s now based on quotes from her teachers an some other information from Once Upon a Nightwish. ✅


 * the picture at the end of the "nightwish era" section is a combined picture, so the description is probably wrong. maybe we should use a different picture. removed


 * "Secondary to the Oceanborn Europe Tour Turunen sang solo in Waltari's rock-themed 1999 ballet Evankeliumi (also known as Evangelicum) in several sold-out performances at the Finnish National Opera." Is there a source for that? ✅


 * "Turunen met her husband and manager, Marcelo Cabuli, during a tour in Buenos Aires in 2000." This sounds as if they had already been married when they met. Maybe we could mention the marriage first (that doesn't come up in the article btw) and then say that they have already met before (according to the official Nightwish biography they married in 2003). ✅


 * "In this letter Turunen was criticized for too often having skipped the rehearsals and to have behaved like a diva." This sentence sounds as if her behaving like a diva was a fact and not the other band members point of view (we actually don't know what happened). So I think we should write something like "she was (blamed / accused) (for / of) behaving like a diva". ✅


 * It's quite the same thing with: "Holopainen explained that he did not search for a similarly trained singer as a successor for Turunen because in her way of singing she is extraordinarily good and therefore not replaceable." I think "because he considers her to be extraordinarily good" is better. ✅


 * "But contrary to many speculations Turunen did not focus entirely on classical music after the separation of Nightwish." '' Who wondered if she might focus on classical music entirely?


 * I have to stop for the moment (real life calls^^) --Firefly05 (talk) 14:42, 25 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, some more ideas:


 * "Since August 2006 she also worked on her next solo album,[...]" the name My Winter Storm should come up there already I think. Talking about something for four sentences without stating the nameis not that much of a good style in my opinion. ✅


 * Does MWS really contain alternative rock elements? For me it's "simply" symphonic metal /-rock. ✅


 * Additionally, I think it should be said that MWS was said to be the first solo-album, because the christmas - album was released during the nightwish - era. (That's why she was nominated for an echo in the "newcomer" - category.) ✅


 * Did MWS achieve gold really on its day of release? here it simply says gold, but nothing about the date of certification. I removed the part about the date of release


 * The biography reads a bit like a list after the part about MWS (Like "in AB she did this, in XY she did that,..."). Especially the part about WLB should be more detailed, e.g. we could say something about its success.
 * absolutely --Pass3456 (talk) 20:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Here she says, she studied church music, not singing and piano. ✅


 * The source for her being specialized in Lied actually says she studied "chamber music singing". ("I have never specialised myself in Opera. I studied specifically chamber music singing.") As far as I know that is (almost) the same - but I think we should still change it.
 * I disagree, chamber music is not a music style. I know for shure that Turunen focused on the Hartmut Höll/Mitsuko Shirai lied centre. I think in that interview Turunen searched for an english phrase for Lied but failed to see that it is a loanword. --Pass3456 (talk) 20:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC) Now there is a Source. ✅
 * Can the "Metal Hammer" Interview that is used as a source for the quote about similarities in opera and metal music be found in the German or American version of MH? This information should be added.
 * The german version of course. --Pass3456 (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * "Turunen explained in an interview that at the time of the recording of Oceanborn she had serious doubts that her studies had not yet advanced enough to master the pieces." Was it really about all the pieces or just about Sleeping Sun?
 * She did not specially mention Sleeping Sun so I she must have ment at least many of those songs.--Pass3456 (talk) 20:04, 2 March 2011 (UTC) ✅
 * "As a remaining advantage of the effort Turunen expanded her vocal range considerably into the lower range which manifested even more on the following albums." Was this all just because of this single song? Doesn't seem likely to me - and there's no source for it.
 * Not just because of a single song. I changed that. Source is of course ist Break Out Magazin. ✅


 * "Until the end of the cooperation Turunen was the trademark of Nightwish,[...]" Maybe we should say "a trademark", because Tarja is/was not seen as the only one I think. ✅


 * The references for the Finnish TV appearances contain dead links, because the news - archive on tarjaturunen.com was deleted when the website was revamped.
 * New sources. ✅ --Pass3456 (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The "Live performances" section doesn't contain any sources. But the information given in this paragraph should rather be given in the biography than in a separate paragraph.
 * It was repeatedly changed by other users that way so it seems wise to me to accept it. No big deal anyway. --Pass3456 (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

@Pass3456: This article and the German one are quite similar, so I think we should check those things "at home" as well.

Okay, that's it. I hope it's helpful. Bye, --Firefly05 (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

made some corrrections
"During several years Turunen studied to become a soul singer like her biggest childhood idols, Whitney Houston and Aretha Franklin, but at the age of eighteen she moved to the city of Kuopio to study at the Sibelius Academy, where she meet some songs from the clasical singer Sarah Brightman, and decidid to focus in this kind of music, influenced, mainly, by the famous song The Phantom of the Opera, by Brightman and Andrew Lloyd Webber."

There was no source. And to my knowledge Turunen did not study to become a soul singer, she just sang almost any kind of style during school. Beginning at the age of 16-17 Turunen was trained as soprano by a private teacher. You can allready hear that on the school project Savonlinnan Taidelukion Romeo ja Julia from 1996. About that time she must have realized that a soprano can not sing soul. I read too that she was impressed by The Phantom of the Opera but at the Sibelius Academy she studied church music. Later on at Karlsruhe she studied Lied which came closer to songs like The Phantom of the Opera. --Pass3456 (talk) 23:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Finally found a source but felt free to shorten it a bit. --Pass3456 (talk) 19:53, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Opera metal
Should definitely be under her genres, she invented it. 72.224.192.101 (talk) 00:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Even if she (more accidentally than consciously) pioneered the style and helped popularising it, the credit for inventing the style belongs neither to her (certainly not her solo career, anyway) nor to Nightwish, but to Therion or ultimately even their inspiration, Celtic Frost. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 16:25, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Improper source for the voice types
Hi, her own websites and not reliable sources for determining her voice type. -- Frous (talk) 22:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * added this --Pass3456 (talk) 20:40, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * see question 7 --Pass3456 (talk) 20:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Vocal Range
This is apparent on her album My Winter Storm, where the lowest note sung is F3 in the song "The Seer", while in another song, she sang up to D6.

Where is the alledged D6 in My Winter Storm? The linked article used as a source doesn't even make mention of it. Sherick (talk) 01:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

After some listening, the highest note on the record is B5. If nothing is presented to back up this D6, it should be removed from the article. Sherick (talk) 22:39, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The blog entry linked to was not the intended one. I corrected it. She does not name the song where she was going to attempt the D6, but she might have meant "Ciarán's Well".
 * Her range is definitely that large. Check this YouTube video where somebody took the trouble to analyse all her studio-recorded songs – a quite Herculean effort! – in order to determine her vocal range. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:13, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * That link does not answer the supposed D6 either, it only mentions that she tried to hit the note at some point. I have found no evidence that the note exists. Whatever her "intent" was, Ciaran's well does not reach nearly that high. That video has no bearing either. If you want, you could use that or the video I myself made as a source, but the information would need to be changed accordingly. Sherick (talk) 21:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * The given source says that she actually hit D6. Since Turunen is a soprano I don't see or hear why that should be a false statement. Unless an expert says so. --Pass3456 (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

"in the song of today, I’ll try the highest, d third" She does not say that she hit the note at all. Once again, there is absolutely nothing to support this, and it does not exist. Even if she did hit the note at some point (with no evidence) it does not appear on the record, which is how the article is framed. She has sang very well documented E6s, but nothing above B5 appears on My Winter Storm. For a third time, it needs to be adjusted accordingly. Sherick (talk) 23:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Your statement is based on which reliable source? --Pass3456 (talk) 12:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The research of myself and other more reliable notewatchers. If you don't feel the quantifiable work of amateurs is reliable enough then that's fine, the point was to make it clear that the note in question does not exist. Sherick (talk) 18:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Please read the hard policy of WP:No original research. Thank you. Binksternet (talk) 19:33, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That's fair, like I said, the point is that the paragraph is framed shoddily. "A large range is apparent" and "she attempted" are somewhat incongruent, especially when no such attempt appears on the album. I do understand how nitpicky this is. Sherick (talk) 07:56, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, simple analyses of music, styles/genres and voices always present a real sourcing problem, especially in popular music. For experts, this is trivial stuff. Nobody bothers with such questions. You just don't publish academic papers performing such analyses, it would be pointless. For musicians, or anyone with basic musical training, it is trivial too, so they don't understand why it is considered OR given that everybody can hear it. For non-musicians or musically untrained people in general, however, it is all but trivial. So that leaves us with journalistic sources, which are often wrong or dodgy, or self-reports, which are also often dubious in quality. In this case, however, I feel it's appropriate to use a self-report. We just don't have anything better, and we happen to know it's approximately correct, or fitting our purpose here. After all, Tarja really knows what she is talking about here. Unlike many pop musicians, she does have the appropriate musical training and she knows the limits of her voice, and identifying and naming notes is a basic skill for her.
 * Note that "range", in classical music, is defined more strictly than in popular music, which is why talented pop singers can boast four, five or more octaves, when it sounds ridiculous from a classical point of view. In classical music, only your "usable range" counts, where you can sound all notes properly out and articulate different vowel shapes, under the conditions of a classical concert, i. e., really loudly so you can overpower the instrumental accompaniment without amplification (the singer's formant trick helps too, but you still need some volume). AFAICT, Mariah Carey's multi-octave voice isn't loud enough to even overpower a piano without the help of a microphone, and she doesn't use the singer's formant, so it's pretty useless from a classical point of view. I suspect it's the same for Yma Sumac. (When you look at Tim Storms and the associated talk page, you'll realise the field of vocal range record-hunting is rife with obvious bunk anyway.)
 * So, when I look at this analysis, I'd say you can forget about those lowest notes (C#3 to E3) for classical music, and even the "sung range" is suspicious. That means Tarja's range barely spans three octaves, which is not at all unusual for a classical singer, or any singer, in fact. But then, in classical music, like in pop music, a huge range isn't all that important. Actually, it's worth squat if your other qualities aren't there.
 * Ultimately, that means you could leave the information out. But our audience isn't competent musicians and musicologists primarily, but the general public, and students of music, who are interested in such things, as experience has taught us. So even if it's ultimately trivia, I feel it's better to have it than to leave it out. YMMV.
 * By the way, I cannot watch your video here, but I can read the description. Since I already know the songs, I suppose this suffices. Kudos! --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:23, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Live In Luna Park
This is not a live album. The Luna Park recording is found on the Act I DVD. "Live In Luna Park" should be removed from the live albums list. Try to find it on Amazon or iTunes - it is not there.

17:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.217.169.246 (talk)

Discography
According to Tarja's label, "My Winter Storm" is her first rock album, "What Lies Beneath" her second rock album and "Colours in the Dark" her third rock album. The fourth rock album will be released this year "The Shadow Self". So, we should organize her discography. Albums like "Henkäys ikuisuudesta" and "Ave Maria – En Plein Air" should be categorized as classical albums.

"With the release of her fourth rock album, the versatile singer is following up on the success of the multi-platinum and gold awarded previous records “My Winter Storm” (2007), “What Lies Beneath” (2010) and her most recent album “Colours In The Dark” (2013) which charted all over the globe including 4 Top 10 entries." Reference: http://tarja-theshadowself.com/

For example:

Rock albums:
 * My Winter Storm (2007)
 * What Lies Beneath (2010)
 * Colours in the Dark (2013)
 * ''The Shadow Self (2016)

Classical albums:
 * Henkäys ikuisuudesta (2006)
 * Ave Maria – En Plein Air (2015)

Live albums:
 * Act I: Live in Rosario (2012)
 * Live in Luna Park (2012)

What do you guys think?

187.111.231.40 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:32, 14 March 2016 (UTC) + 1 --Pass3456 (talk) 19:26, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

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