Talk:Tarso Marques

Phoenix Finance
For completeness the exclusion from the 2002 Australian GP should be included in the results table - see [Phoenix Finance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tartanperil (talk • contribs) 09:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No, see my comment at Talk:Gastón Mazzacane. Bretonbanquet (talk) 03:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality?
"But even though he was replaced with 3 races to go Fernando Alonso was still unable to beat his impressive results while always having the latest updates through the season." I remember this season quite vividly, as well as the impression that Alonso was already showing that he was going to be a very successful driver. I did, however, not have a lasting impression of Marques's performance. So I went ahead and looked into the results. While it is true that Marques finished 9th on two occasions, by far the team's best results of the season, it is also true that:
 * Marques was consistently outqualified by his inexperienced team-mate, most often lapping at least a second slower, except for two occasions, in one of which Alonso could not even set a single timed lap due to technical issues;
 * Marques never finished a race ahead of Alonso when they both reached the end of the race;
 * Marques didn't, in fact, ever finish ahead of anyone else:
 * Finishing last in every single race he took part in during the 2001 season, he was lapped by Alonso in both races they both completed;
 * He was running a solid last in Brazil and Canada, where he scored his best results. In fact, in both races, he was running two laps behind the second-to-last driver who finished the race.
 * In 5 of the 6 races he finished, he was at least a lap down on the second-to-last driver to finish the race. Only in Spain did he manage to finish with another driver less than a lap ahead of him, although his team-mate did lap him in that same race.
 * He was 2 laps down on the next driver on 2 occasions (the races where he finished 9th) and even 4 laps behind in the Belgian GP
 * The same does not hold true for Alonso, who finished ahead of at least one driver in 4 of his 8 races where he saw the chequered flag, only being lapped by the second-to-last driver on 2 occasions, where he was no more than 1 lap down, respectively.

So while it is true that the Brazilian did score the team's best results of the season, his performances were in fact less than impressive, if not dismal. Yes, he was ditched because of financial considerations, but that had nothing to do with him being an outstanding driver who had to leave for a more wealthy driver, while his team-mate was spared solely for financial reasons. Marques was in fact the weakest link in the team, performance-wise and financially, so it was quite natural for the team to replace him as soon as the opportunity arose.

The wording of the article offers a completely different version of the story, insinuating that he was really the better driver, being disadvantaged and eventually ditched only for financial reasons. As I have tried to dissect, there is not a single trace of evidence for this version in the qualifying and race results of the season.

This distortion may reflect a certain anti-Alonso sentiment, consciously or not. My intention is not to blame anyone for disliking a driver, but I wanted to point out that some of the information in this article is not quite correct, and that this may be due to a lack of neutrality. I am, however, not an experienced Wiki editor, so I am rather reluctant to just go ahead and rewrite a part of the article without at least hearing some feedback. 2A00:FE00:4103:1:0:0:0:400 (talk) 08:33, 19 September 2014 (UTC)


 * You may not be aware that Marques and Alonso did not have the same equipment. Quotes from Stoddart explain that within the team, Marques was considered to be doing a good job given the specification of his car. "Tarso did not actually bring any budget to the team. We get on fantastically with Tarso, he is a friend as well as a damn good driver, and he did the job that I asked him to do. Many times when we had problems in those early days, Tarso's car was the one that had the problems because the best equipment was always on Fernando's car. As a result throughout the year I said to Tarso many times that if the right driver came along with a good budget then I would change him, and he knew that from day one. Initially we just said we would do three races, and it shows how well we got along that he did fourteen!"


 * At the first race, Marques was sent out in a car that had never been run before, having been put together in the pitlane. His car had steel brakes, Alonso's had the same modern brake material that all the other teams used. Alonso got all the updates whereas Marques generally got nothing because he brought no money to the team and Minardi couldn't afford two of everything. Plus, of course, the Minardi was by a long measure the worst car on the grid and it was rare that either driver got through a race without pretty serious issues. In Belgium, yes Marques was 4 laps down, but he had a 4 minute pitstop with suspension problems. Alonso was clearly the better driver of the two and the wording should not try to detract from that, but at the same time, it's important not to suggest that Marques was useless. When Yoong was brought in, his money allowed him the same equipment as Alonso, and Yoong was even slower than Marques. Studying results is great, but there's always more than meets the eye. But I'll have a look at the wording tomorrow when I have more time and see if we can make it a bit more neutral. Bretonbanquet (talk) 03:07, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I've reworded one part of that section and removed a dubious piece about him nearly signing for Ferrari – I've never heard about that and can't find anything about it. Let me know if you want to change anything else. Bretonbanquet (talk) 12:22, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi, thank you for your help!
 * I definitely did not mean to ridicule Marques. My wording was not perfect when I said that his "performances" were bad. As you said, it is close to impossible to judge how well he drove, as we don't know exactly what kind of pace his car would have had in Alonso's hands. So, yeah, it was ill-advised to use this word there. But saying his results were bad would not have been adequate, either, as he scored the teams best - though ultimately meaningless - results. Maybe I should have just said that his pace was far from outstanding and consistently slower than Alonso's, whatever the reasons.
 * In short: My point was that, regardless of the material they had, Marques's (is that even the right way to write it?) appearances simply did not allow to draw the conclusion at which the wording very strongly hinted. I tried to provide an analysis that showed why the initial reasoning was unsound. That was the conclusion I was trying to put forward. I didn't want the article to praise Alonso, I wanted it to take a more "agnostic" stance. I'm very happy with your rewording, as it stays faithful to the observable facts and steers clear of any kind of bias. So again, thank you very much!


 * P.S.:
 * Being a long-standing fan of F1 and an avid participant in those notoriously useless arguments about driver comparison, I am very well aware of the impossibility of evaluating a driver's skill by analysing nothing but the qualifying or race results. That's something I only resort to when I am confronted with an analysis that is even less sound methodologically, as was the case here.
 * 84.172.24.135 (talk) 18:31, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * That's cool, you were absolutely right to bring it up. It's true that a detailed comparison between Marques and Alonso is difficult but that Alonso was clearly the faster. Even Marques admitted that, and he has said that Alonso was the best driver he'd ever seen. You could argue that Marques did well to get as close as he sometimes did, but this is an encyclopedia and we should be keeping it simple. I like your idea of the "agnostic" stance! That's a very good way of putting it. Feel free to raise issues with any F1 articles; we will always try to stay as neutral as possible. Cheers! Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:25, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

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