Talk:Tatarstan Airlines Flight 363

News pages
WhisperToMe (talk) 19:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.tatarstan.aero/ - http://archive.is/TSDb2

Flight number
Tatarstan Airlines call it flight U9 363 rather than simply 363. Should we retain the current title or not? Brandmeistertalk  21:18, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it's a code-share thing. Have a look at this?  Either way, no need to rush into changing the article title for the second/third time today.  The Rambling Man (talk) 21:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * U9 is the airline's IATA code. Some of them have numbers. WhisperToMe (talk) 06:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Media files
Commons:Category:VQ-BBN (aircraft) has several photographs of the aircraft though none of the investigation so far. --Fæ (talk) 02:56, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Can someone please..
Can someone please help me get the citation coding right? It shows up in the normal code instead of what you normally see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Justin86789 (talk • contribs) 03:07, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Your template needed a pair of closing braces (}}) in order to close it; I added it for you. — Whisternefet (t &#183; c) 03:58, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Correct terminology
Just for clarification and future reference, could someone explain me (I am not a native speaker) when to use the words accident, incident and crash and if they significantly change the gist of the article? My understanding is that "incident" does not necessarily imply that something bad or unwanted had happened and is more broad in scope; "accident" is used when we are discussing unwanted and tragic events like this one. "Crash" is a more specific term to indicate the nature of the accident but most aviation disasters end up in a crash so this seems obvious in most cases. -- Itemirus (talk)  14:18, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't know whether you have already seen it or not but the ICAO defines the terms 'incident' and 'accident' as follows. . To put it into a nutshell, an incident is an occurrence where there are neither fatalities nor substantial damage to the aircraft BUT the occurrence affects or might affect the safety of operations. An accident on the other hand is an occurrence where the aircraft received substantial damage or where there are people that were fatally injured as a result of the occurrence. However this page does not define the word 'crash' which leaves room for speculation. But since the definition of 'Accident' does not include a destroyed aircraft, it might well be that a crash is an occurrence, where the aircraft is completely destroyed or scattered into millions of pieces. Still, I think that the word 'Crash' is somewhat informal (not the word per se but in aviation terminology). FonEengIneeR7 (talk) 22:24, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for pointing me to the page. By their definitions I reckon that the aircraft sustains damage or structural failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft is a condition perfectly compatible with the aftermaths of a crash; an event that completely shatters an aircraft to pieces inevitably affects the structural performance, I see no room for speculation. In my opinion the term accident without doubt is applicable in this specific case.-- Itemirus (talk)  23:27, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * To complete my earlier statement, using the word 'crash' implies that the occurrence might also have been caused by a deliberate act whereas using 'accident' does not. FonEengIneeR7 (talk) 14:11, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Relevant information?
Why do you present the sequential owner history of the airplane with all this interesting delivery dates? Does it really matter? Does it add any relevant information to the article? I suggest removing this trivia. It does not make the article better if you throw in every single piece of information about the airplane, the airline and the airport.

Apart from that, I am glad Wikipedia managed again to find out the flight number (not to speak of hastily creating an article while the airplane remains are still smoldering). Are you aware of the fact that the article heading does not contain the slightest hint to indicate the article is about an aircraft accident? Accurate and precise reporting should begin with carefully selecting a descriptive heading.

It will not take long and we will see the unavoidable list of notable passengers appear in the article. There were some aboard this plane!

No. Please refrain from doing that. It makes Wikipedia look like a tabloid rather than an encyclopedia. --195.246.100.57 (talk) 15:13, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Because that is the accepted article naming practice for aviation accidents. Are you a troll? -- Itemirus (talk)  15:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Here is the answer to Itemirus’ highly polite question ("Are you a troll?").
 * No, I am not a Troll. I am a former aircraft accident investigator, who (temporarily) considered improving some related articles by correcting a number of gross factual errors they contain.


 * Let me take the opportunity to give away a big secret I found after having worked for years in this grim field of aviation.
 * It is not the flight number that has an accident, it is the aircraft. Always.
 * That is why we ended up calling these unfortunate events aircraft accidents (rather than flight number accidents).


 * Now, let me ask a few questions.


 * Do you remember those high-profile accidents like Malaysia Airlines flight 684, Avianca flight 011, Flying Tiger flight 4006, or at least United Airlines flight 2885?


 * Do those numbers ring any bell? Do the places, the aircraft types or any other detail come to your mind?


 * Would you search for these naked flight numbers in an encyclopedia?


 * Would you associate any flight number with an accident?


 * After having learned more about these accidents, would you be able to remember these flight numbers two days later?


 * Don’t you find it just a little bit strange that the headers of most aircraft accident articles do not include the slightest hint that the article is about an accident?
 * How about reviewing this accepted article naming practice?


 * Arrivederci Wikipedia good bye. --195.246.100.57 (talk) 11:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you've raised some very pertinent points, anon 195.246. A flight number might have more than one accident. Martinevans123 (talk) 00:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Investigation
We can avoid false statements from misinterpretation of IAC preliminary reports by simply placing quotes with relevant information directly from IAC. We should definitely prefer quotes with translation of IAC reports themselves to claims by various media reporters who interpret reports by IAC from anywhere in the world.

For instance, comparing to the primary source (IAC website, in Russian), we can see that (contrary to the offered interpretation) IAC did not state that the crew attempted to land under NVFR (night visual flight rules).

Next, IAC did not state that the crew deemed the approach unstable. 93.80.254.212 (talk) 16:53, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


 * We just can't quote every announcement. You may be right that we ought to rely on the information published by official investigation bodies, but please refrain from copying and inserting such preliminary, too technical announcements. Instead, sum up the most important points in your own, less technical words. FonEengIneeR7 (talk) 17:33, 22 November 2013 (UTC)




 * What is a nominal approach?
 * What is TOGA detent?
 * What is indicated airspeed?
 * What is KIAS?
 * What is the angle of attack?
 * What is a negative pitch angle?

An average reader, not knowing the phrases above, would not be able to understand a single paragraph from this quotation. Therefore please, as stated above, rewrite your edit leaving out all the non-notable items. FonEengIneeR7 (talk) 17:44, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


 * This article from Flightglobal may be of some use in describing the accident sequence.Nigel Ish (talk) 10:37, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

That's the source I had used.... FonEengIneeR7 (talk) 11:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see. While I agree with the point that the quote is too technical (the intent of this quoting is to avoid numerous doubtful interpretations of IAC reports by media, wikipedians or whoever), it is somewhat a challenge to rephrase the text for non-experts without adding anything the IAC actually did not said, or omitting something relevant from the original IAC report. Hope that links to some related aviation articles will help. 128.72.188.188 (talk) 11:04, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * And yes, we shouldn't quote every announcement, of course. 128.72.188.188 (talk) 11:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * You, or we, could use featured aviation accident articles as a "reference" to see how they have dealt with it. Example: Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907, Hughes Airwest Flight 706... FonEengIneeR7 (talk) 11:21, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference 22
Can someone fix reference 22 so the information is considered credited? Thanks BrandonWu (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Reader feedback: reference 22. is not active. why?
86.81.223.186 posted this comment on 3 December 2013 (view all feedback).

"reference 22. is not active. why?"

Any thoughts?

BrandonWu (talk) 03:18, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, it's a dead link and it doesn't have an entry at archive.org. It will need to be replaced with something appropriate.  The Rambling Man (talk) 14:52, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

start of infinite end
hell get more stuffed with arrival of irek minnikhanov, yes you not misread, minnikhanov, minnikhanov now from fire to fire gone, imagine his position, he just not get why this fire not end, this are show that as some could have this by first look unquestionable question that many asks, if god are been first, who then created god, what are start and where are an end, the answer are one, start of infinite end

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131117175008/http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57612710/russian-airline-crashes-in-kazan-killing-dozens/ to http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57612710/russian-airline-crashes-in-kazan-killing-dozens/

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Report files
I have archived related files: WhisperToMe (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
 * http://mak-iac.org/rassledovaniya/17-noyabrya-boing-737-500-vq-bbn - http://www.webcitation.org/6g811FC7Z
 * http://mak-iac.org/en/rassledovaniya/boing-737-500-vq-bbn-17-11-2013 - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80yDoQT
 * http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/dc4/report_vq-bbn.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80WVPVQ
 * http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/58b/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%2020.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80bKEP6
 * http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/6e0/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5.PDF - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80eavPs
 * http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/6b0/%D0%9E%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82%20%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%BD%D0%B0%20%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5.PDF - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80jb39g
 * http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/8e4/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B8.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80mhb8u
 * http://mak-iac.org/upload/iblock/890/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%20%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B5%D0%B2.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6g80pt3K4

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131122120850/http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/kazan_deployment.cfm to http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/kazan_deployment.cfm
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/tatarstan-airlines-faces-threat-of-grounding-393816/
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://atwonline.com/safety/rosaviatsia-commission-recommends-revoking-tatarstan-aoc
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