Talk:Tau Kappa Epsilon/Archive 1

Official Colours
Somebody keeps changing the official colours to "cherry red" and "battleship grey". The official colours in the Black Book (Article XII, SEC. 3) clearly say that they are "the shade of red known as crimson cherry red, and the shade of gray known as pure silver". --Lolmaster 21:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC) I'm positive that the colours are not cherry red and battleship grey, they're just "cherry red" and "grey." That's what the brand new teke guide says this year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.82.88.37 (talk) 03:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well according to my Teke guide(well I'll check to be sure) I learned it as "battleship grey" and "Cherry Red" I think thats it our own black book. I don't know see why or how it would be different. I'll repost once I check my guide. --MaxwellTeke 02:35, 25 April 2007
 * Lolmaster already included a link to the Black Book, and it clearly states "the shade of cherry known as crimson lake, and the shade of gray known as pure silver". I'm sure if you want to go pull out a Golden Book it would probably back that up also. Hunter00047
 * I suppose we learned it differently or something. I don't have access to our chapter's black book but its no big deal really. The TKE guide states only red and gray, either way its fine.--MaxwellTeke
 * I learned it is Crimson/Cherry Red, and Pearl Gray... so I changed it :D FireElemental  —Preceding comment was added at 06:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well since people keep wanting to put Cherry Red and Grey up. Shall we put a stop to this?   Shall we put "Cherry Red" and "Grey" in the box? Or the shades of "Crimson Lake and Pure Silver" as stated in the black book? DiamondTKE (talk) 01:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well since the person who first put it as those colors seemed to have left wikipedia. I suppose I will change it the colors instead of the shades. As long as no one objects by after Christmas I will do so.DiamondTKE (talk) 13:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

clean up
Can anyone shed a little light on the cleanup tag and why it was placed here? I haven't written anything major on the article, but I'd still like to know why someone tagged it....KC9CQJ 03:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * In general, Wikipedia articles are "a quick overview of ...", not "large numbers of factoids about and source documents of ...". Get to the point and make sure the point is something that even people who will never join the fraternity might want to know.  Wikipedia articles aren't supposed to be copies of information found on the TKE website.  Here are a few of the problems I've seen :


 * Expecting people to wade through full texts like the Creed or Declaration of Principles instead of doing the work of summarizing them.
 * Listing nonnotable people, like the sweethearts, who aren't prominent in the fraternity or elsewhere.
 * However, you could mention TKE chooses sweethearts annually in some Traditions section, without going into the uninteresting details.
 * Listing nonnotable people who just happen to hold high positions in the fraternity.
 * See, for instance, how the IBM article lists key people, not every well-titled person.
 * In the sidebar, not helping people to get their bearings and listing small details that are uninteresting to nonTKEs.
 * Again, notice the IBM article: it helps people to get their bearings quickly if they've not heard of IBM and it cuts out uninteresting factoids.


 * 131.230.133.185 03:32, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Our current membership as of April 2006 is 241,000. We generally grow at about 3000 members a year.

Ron Jeremy
That link regarding TKE's organizational structure proves nothing. This is about the organization as a whole and as such should only recognize members that are representative of the entire fraternity. According to the link "The final level of organization is the focal point of all levels of the organization--our chapters and colonies--the chapter unit." That's true for every fraternity. However without the very top of the organization, the fraternity would cease to exist. Ron Jeremy was haphazardly initiated as a member without even going through a formal pledge process, so what does that say about the San Diego State chapter? Respect should be given to the wishes of their Int'l HQ and not to people who think it's "cool" that a porn star is a so called "Famous TKE".
 * I cannot accept your argument. TKE could arguably exist without its top if those in the bottom, who are the fraternity, wanted it to continue.  It's far more true that without the very bottom, it would cease to exist.  But that's something that could be argued for weeks, since both parts contribute to the fraternity.


 * With regard to whose wishes to respect, your actions speak louder than your words. One of TKE's principles is that we don't disdain members of other fraternities, yet it is visible from your edit history that you not only use the NPOV policy as a bludgeon to force other fraternities to retain bad parts of their history (including one which was was worded to equate Confederacy membership and KKK membership, which is definitely a POV), but that you don't seem to prefer the same occur here.  It is plainly NPOV to keep the fact that he was inducted, and a disclaimer that shows that he doesn't represent the values of TKE well at all with bits that show that he was badly inducted.  I don't see how else to avoid TKE appearing to have bad character except to not hide Ron Jeremy.  Otherwise, the edit history of the article makes it appear that a cover-up happened. &mdash; 12.207.151.144 2 July 2005 17:44 (UTC)


 * It's clear to me that you're taking this argument personally by going through my edit history...My edit history? What has my edits regarding other articles have to do with the matter at hand? I seriously suggest that you refine your argument. As far as the KKK edit with SAE, it was a revert. It was not POV. There has been controversy with early KKK membership in all fraternities such as Beta Theta Pi, Kappa Sigma and Phi Delta Theta but SAE stands out because of its true Southern origins. This was known for a while. That's what the previous author tried to establish. It was my hope that by reverting it someone would refine that part of their history, which someone did. Bludgeoning other fraternities to retain the bad parts f their history is completely ridiculous charge. To only accept the good parts of history is not NPOV and THAT is a cover up. Worse it is revisionist history. As far as TKE is concerned, I fail to see some kind of "cover-up". Likewise I DO NOT accept your first counter-argument but I respect it. However I have no respect for you digging into an edit history that's completely unrelated to an article.
 * It's a good practice to read through someone's contribution history to get a feel for them before responding in a lengthy debate, the only thing personal is the interpretations of the history. TKE 02:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

If International HQ hasn't recognized "Frater" Jeremy as a member, then he shouldn't be added back to the article. I bet anyone if I called Frater Chris Walsh at International (who I do happen to cross paths with on a frequent basis), he would probably say that we don't recognize that initiation as valid. That and I have never seen Ron Jeremy mentioned on any HQ related documents either. Unless someone can back up Ron Jeremy's initiation to the Bond, his name needs to stay out. KC9CQJ 00:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

And Once Again, Ron Jeremy's name appears here. Next time I talk to OGC, I'll get a clarification. In fact, I'll just e-mail them a link here and see what they say....KC9CQJ 05:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's my understanding that Ron Jeremy isn't recognized for several reasons; primarily chain of commmand. Theoretically a chapter submits nominees for Honorary before initiation; however, since it's usually fathers and close supporters, there's lax there.  Had Ron been submitted he wouldn't have been approved.  No, he's not recognized by HQ.  Unless HQ objects to his inclusion here then it's open to interpretation of the editors, and personally I think the Two Rons make a nice contrast.  My two cents. TKE 02:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Ron Jeremy is not recognized as a TKE. San Diego State sent in the application for an honorary membership and it was rejected by the CEO, for the reason that he does not uphold the ideals of Tau Kappa Epsilon. However, San Diego State went ahead and initiated him into the chapter without permission. Therefor, Ron Jeremy was initiated into TKE and has been through the ritual, nevertheless, he is not recognized as a member because he was not approved for honorary membership. As a side note though if you ever meet Ron and tell him you are a TKE he will acknowledge that with splendid candor and actually talk to you about it. He loves TKE which is kind of funny because he is treated as the red headed step child of the fraternity.
 * Thankya much for the clarification. T  e  k e  04:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

From what I've heard and read, Ron Jeremy was not accepted by Int'l HQ, but he was initiated anyways. That being said, he is familiar with the rites and rituals of the fraternity, among other fraternity-related things. He knows how to identify himself as a Teke to others. This makes him a Teke, all-but-officially. I think he should be included in the article, and if someone else wants to put an asterisk next to his name with an explanation, then by all means go ahead and do it.LoyolaDude 05:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If the Internationals do not recognize a person as a TKE. I feel he should not be included. He was rejected for the Honorary TKE because of his current occupation. He does not represent what Internationals feels is a TKE. Even though the chapter initiated him anyway against the wishes of the HQ, he does not deserve the honor of being a TKE alumni. MaxwellTeke 3:10, 2 February 2007

What ever happened for "not for wealth, rank, or honor"?? Should a member be denied membership because of their occupation? HQ cannot deny membership to an undergraduate member that a chapter extends a bid to, if they do not agree with his occupation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.43.85.138 (talk) 17:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Jeremy had the wealth rank and honor...it's the personal worth and character that I'm afraid he wouldn't live up to. And how about the mission "to aid men in their mental, moral, and social development for life." His occupation definitely is not morally or socially acceptable, and if TKE allowed someone like that to be a role model for members, then the fraternity wouldn't be aiding men by instilling those values as stated in the mission. BlueGold73 (talk) 19:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Tau Kappa Epsilon is a private organization they can accept or deny anyone they choose as long as it is not because their race or age.(Gender does not apply here). Occupation is not protected by law and thus can be used to deny membership and/or recognizing a member initiated by a chapter because they have final say over membership. The San Diego chapter had Ron Jeremy apply for honorary status but Internationals declined it because of his profession. So the chapter went ahead and initiated him anyway. Internationals decided not to allow him to be a member and kept its standing after SD did it on their own. It did not (as stated before) uphold the values of TKE. Plus even if he was recognized, a 'porn star' is hardly a notable profession much less being a notable member. So he loses in both aspects. We elect our Grand Officers and that is how it was decided. DiamondTKE (talk) 07:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Not many people know this, but Elvis faced one of the exact same controversies when he was initiated. It was down right scandalous to have an entertainer that shook his hips like that on stage and it was several years before his membership was recognized. During that time, however, Elvis' support of TKE did not wane. I am of the opinion that one day Ron Jeremy will be recognized as the ritualized and proud member that he is. (This story comes to you by way of Buckwheat, which isn't exactly NPOV or verifiable.) That being said, there is probably enough support among chapters right now to pass a resolution resolving the matter at the next conclave.162.84.133.215 (talk) 11:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Other Notable Members
Several people have mentioned to me that actor Paul Rubens is in TKE. I don't see him listed here though, so does anyone know if that's a valid claim?
 * He is not. He atteneded Boston University for one year in 1970, and there was not a chapter there at the time that I am aware of. T   K   E  05:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I noticed there was never much discussion about this one so I decided to do a google search and see what, if anything, may have sparked the original question. I ran across some discussion about the same thing on one of the Greek forums, and the conclusion was that some chapter in Oklahoma initiated him as an honorary prior to his arrests.  Does anyone have any solid facts as to whether this claim was true of false? BlueGold73 (talk) 04:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Why did someone remove Paul Wight from the list of notable members in athletics? That's where he's listed in the Teke guide.
 * Dunno why someone would remove it, he's got the crest on his arm. I restored the edit.  Feel free to be bold sometimes in editing.  T   K   E  05:28, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Paul Wights Tattoo is on his left calf by the way
 * I hope upon hopes that I never see his left calf :D T  e  k e  04:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Roy Jones Jr. was initiated in August. http://www.tke.org/news/
 * Please sign after you make a message so its easier to tell who typed. Yes we are aware of that, in fact he was already added to the list before you put his name there(Thus having him on the list twice) His name is there, no worries DiamondTKE (talk) 22:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I have seen on at least one TKE list that Willie Nelson is a TKE; his wikipedia page doesn't list that, nor even that he ever went to college. Is he or isn't he? &mdash;ScouterSig 16:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.jointke.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=37&Itemid=45. He is listed under Entertainment. As shown with other honorary members, Elvis Presley, a person does not necessarily have to go to college to be in the fraternity. He was initiated as an honorary member, not an undergraduate.(This is the alumni website of Xi-Nu, where he was initiated. It has him listed as honorary. So yes, he is considered a TKE. DiamondTKE (talk) 02:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I am unfamiliar with honorary memberships, as my own fraternity does not have them. &mdash;ScouterSig 18:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. Our fraternity does this when a man represents what we deem have sterling character and uphold our values. While a chapter can give an honorary status to whoever they choose, it is internationals that have the final say on whether they are recognized. Here is the applications. It gives information on what it is and such if you were interested in learning about it. http://www.tke.org/member_resources/finance/honorary_application.pdf DiamondTKE (talk) 02:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ScouterSig - Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there have been several rare instances in which Sigma Chi has granted honorary membership, including to president Grover Cleveland. I believe you are correct though in that this practice is no longer commonplace in the fraternity, while TKE still does grant such memberships to select individuals who exemplify the core values and spirit of the fraternity. BlueGold73 (talk) 04:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Correct; Sigma Chi used to bestow honorary membership, but no longer does. It has recently approved a "non-student initiation program," which I believe to be different than 'honorary membership;' though if you asked me how it was in more than just name, I'm afraid I wouldn't know. :) &mdash;ScouterSig 04:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Some changes
I noticed that there were some changes to this page that caught my eye, and this is one I had to correct. It doesn't seem like they knew a few things, or it's not how nationals explains it, and it made me itch to fix them. Here why I changed them:

The hegamon oversees education for the whole fraternity. Although his primary concern is new members, he must make sure that active memebers still have a working knowledge of ritual, fraternity facts, etc.

Social Chair and Sgt at Arms are separate, but some chapters may put them together. Sgt at Arms is the head of security during meetings, parties, and has other duties during meeting.

The Chaplain oversees academics by watching grades, and promotes actives to study and helps them to develop study habits by requiring those with a lower then average G.P.A to do study tables and other remedial activities.

Hope this clears up some confusion. I'm gonna try to clean up, and maybe make some changes when I get more time and things settle in for the school year. --Mh143 06:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I replaced "Security" with "Risk Management," which is more enveloping of the office. Teke ( talk ) 04:51, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear sirs,

I am Member of the german Fraternities Corps Vitruvia Munich and Corps Montania Clausthal, both are Corps of the Weinheimer Senioren Convent(WSC)/Germany! As you probably know the WSC and T-K-E have a standing and working relationship since a few years. Why, if I may ask, is this no longer mentioned on the T-K-E Wikipedia page? There even where a few Teke's at our annual meeting in Weinheim(Germany) this year. It is written on the page that T-K-E has chapters in Germany. I do not think this can be true, due to the fact that "greek life", as it is known in the U.S.A and Canada, is not known in Germany. What I do know, is that Mr. Murphy, who is a Teke, is also a member of the German Fraternity "Corps Franconia zu Darmstadt (WSC)" and holds close contact with his afore mentioned Corps. Through Mr. Murphy's hard work and dedication this relationship was formed. Please be so kind to mention our standing relationship on this informativ page!

with best regards and corpsstudent Greetings

Kurtis Faisst Z!Z!

Corps Vitruvia zu Muenchen (WSC) Corps Montania zu Clausthal (WSC)

Dear sirs, dear FCB Faisst,

in addition to aforementioned changes I'd like to see the wikipedia pages about the German Student Corps and the Weinheimer Senioren-Convent linked to. Imho this would be a necessary source of information for any reader.

with kind regards and corpsstudent greetings

Andreas Jonszinski Z! x Corps Teutonia Dresden (WSC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.30.213.187 (talk) 12:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Coat of Arms
Some how our coat of arms got deleted. Fixed it! Mh143 01:02, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * So, the official Tau Kappa Epsilon coat of arms does not contain gold to my knowledge, regardless of other images on the internet. Instead, it only contains cherry and gray colors, as seen on the official TKE website. Now, the picture there is low resolution, so I would recommend using the one here. Someone with the correct permissions, please change this (because I can't). Thanks! Clpower95 06:07, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Motto
TKE = The Knowledge Eternal Redspotz (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * you'll need to provide a source if you want that included in the article. BlueGold73 (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Hell Week
Delta Chi claims that it was the first fraternity to abolish "Hell week", when it did so in 1929; however, I recently ran across a couple different passages in The Golden Book of Tau Kappa Epsilon (published in 1949, edited by Leland F. Leland, Theta '21) that would indicate that TKE may have been the first.

On page 93 there's a section titled "The Pioneering Fraternity" where it talks about the things where TKE has been the innovator among fraternities, and it mentions "perfecting a definite program of pledge training as a substitute for "Hellweek" and the paddle." On page 94 it states "We were the first to rule out the paddle." On page 74 it discusses efforts to eliminate hazing during 1927 and 1928 that concluded with "in the place of "Hell week" we put into operation an initiation period consisting of lessons portraying the finest attributes of brotherhood."

This all would seem to suggest that TKE may have abolished hell week before Delta Chi, and it's all recorded in the most comprehensive source of TKE history ever written, and by someone who was active in the fraternity during the time period. I'm curious to hear what anyone's thoughts are on the subject. Should we make the claim that TKE was first? BlueGold73 (talk) 05:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The best way to authenticate the claim would be to find a source outside of the fraternity's manual, if possible.Samwisep86 (talk) 08:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought that might be the answer, but then on the Delta Chi page they're just referencing a line on their current website, which is even less of a source. If we can't authenticate it based on our own source then they shouldn't be able to either. There are outside sources that have mentioned their claim, but they're current sources that just reference seeing it on their website, on wikipedia, etc. Can anyone really claim something like this unless they can find a third party source from the 20s or 30s to back it up? BlueGold73 (talk) 15:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Hazing incidents
The following content (along with other unrelated content not at issue here), sourced to a news story, was removed from the article, with an accompanying edit summary stating that "Highlighting . . . a single hazing incident is misplaced in this section and gives undue weight to these specific examples". On November 2, 2011 the Rho-Kappa chapter of Longwood University was accused of hazing their candidates. The investigation of the house in question led police to seize "a torch and branding iron, along with a wooden paddle."(1) This investigation led to the arrest of 15 students and two non students.

(1) Jenks, Andy. "17 arrested in Longwood University fraternity hazing case". NBC12. Retrieved February 7, 2012.

In addition to the Longwood incident, a Google News search shows that TKE has been connected with several other publicized hazing incidents over the last few years, including a 2010 Radford University incident that led to the death of a pledge and misdemeanor convictions for six members; a 2011 incident at the University of Charleston that led to the chapter's suspension; and a 2009 incident at the University of Buffalo that led to the chapter's suspension..

It appears to me that there is enough here to justify a section of the article on hazing incidents. I invite other editors' views. --Arxiloxos (talk) 01:22, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed, there needs to be a section about it. Even though they formally abolished "hell week" years ago, it still goes on informally. Is the fraternity known for being far-right conservative? The Oregon State University chapter is. --67.171.164.195 (talk) 22:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Agreed as well. Only thought I'm pondering upon is whether or not this could be its own separate page in relation to TKE (much like the Chapter/Colony page)? Would it be worthwhile pooling a page with hazing incidents for all social fraternities as well? CanadianTKE (talk) 07:05, 29 August 2018 (UTC)CanadianTKE (talk • contribs)