Talk:Tea/Archive 1

Divisions of tea by processing technique, please clarify non sequitur
''The four main types of tea are distinguished by their processing. Camellia sinensis is an evergreen shrub whose leaves, if not quickly dried after picking, soon begin to wilt and oxidize. This process resembles the malting of barley, in that starch is converted into sugars; the leaves turn progressively darker, as chlorophyll breaks down and tannins are released. The next step in processing is to stop the oxidation process at a predetermined stage by removing the water from the leaves via heating.'' ''The term fermentation was used (probably by wine fanciers) to describe this process, and has stuck, even though no true fermentation happens (i.e. the process is not driven by microbes and produces no ethanol). Without careful moisture and temperature control, fungi will grow on tea. The fungi will cause fermentation which will contaminate the tea with toxic and carcinogenic substances. In fact, when real fermentation happens, the tea must be discarded.''

What four main types? Does this refer to the more-than-four items below (White, Green, Oolong, etc)? Is Camellia sinensis the only tea plant, and where is the botanical link? Will fix if needed, but wanted to ask first. SM 22:50, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I had read before that the distinctive flavor of darjeeling tea is the result of a special variety of tea grown in the region, the result of a cross between conventional China tea and a different tea plant indigenous to the (I think) foothills of the Himalayas. Whether this different tea plant (it has large leaves and a larger growth habit) is a different Camellia species or just a very distinctive botanical variety of C. sinensis, I do not recall. It's something that would be nice to pin down. It would also be nice to have the botanical name (if there is one) and genealogy of darjeeling tea, as well as the botanical name (there has to be one!) of the C. sinensis variety used for pu-erh. Eg. Camellia sinensis var bonayensis (I made that up).Krnntp 18:18, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Did a little googling, and found, "After picking, there are four stages in the processing of tea: withering, rolling, fermenting and drying". Perhaps this level of clarity could be achieved, both in these paragraphs and subsequent discussion of White, Green, Oolong, etc. SM 23:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I think this is a little vague; generally rephrasing. The tea article is really getting out of hand, its becoming a little impossible to fix, end moan. Actually there is some deviation in tea processing depending on what type; I had a good reference for this but I've lost it. Rolling is not common to all tea types, nor is fermentation or how it stopped etc. --Iateasquirrel 16:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. By way of triage, I have changed the "four main types" and "five main groups" references into something unquantified. If there are a canonical "four main types" and "five main groups" which actually mean something in the tea-literate world, please restore so it is clear which five and four are implied. -SM 06:51, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Tea bags vs. loose leaf
I believe there is a huge difference between bag and loose leaf teas--a difference that turns a commonplace drink into a complex, wine-like delicacy. But the article doesn't explain the most critical reason--dried tea loses it's flavor on exposure to air very quickly. Tea bags generally contain broken up tea leaves, making them go stale faster (for the same reason it's better to buy whole bean coffee). Furthermore, breaking up the leaves extracts flavorful oils. True, some tea bags contain whole leaves, but not most. Also, good loose-leaf teas tend to be vacuum packed.

World market statistics
The only significant exporters of black tea are India and Sri Lanka (Ceylon).


 * Kenya exports more tea than Sri Lanka. Other countries are propably also signifficant.

''China is the only significant exporter of green tea, as nearly the entire Japanese production is consumed domestically. ''


 * What about Vietnam?

As of the late 1990s, the annual tea production of India was just short of one billion kilograms, of which 203 million kg were exported in 1997.

Statistics section should be replaced by some table from some reputable trade organization. I'l try to look for some. Wikimol

Statistics (production)
work in progress

-732,350t CTC, 88,904t orthodox, 4,911other -
 * India (2002) 873874t
 * Darjeeling (2002) 11068t
 * Assam (2002) 449357t
 * Total South India (2002) 210801t

, up do Nov.
 * Sri Lanka (2003) 310kt


 * Indonesia (2000) 157371t

  
 * China
 * (2000) 683324t
 * (2002) 740kt
 * Kenya (2000) 236286t

todo Tanzani, Zimbabwe, Malawi, Turkey, Georgia, Japan,

year total 2991827t (2000)

Statistics (export)


"In Sri Lanka, tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but with the interesting difference that the milk is always warmed." English tea is often made with warmed milk. I'm not sure the above comment should be in the article, but I am loathed to remove it.


 * I've never come across tea made with warm milk in England.  Are your family weird? Markalexander100 06:56, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Weird sure, overly weird probably not; I've been served Tea with warm milk by other families. Warming the milk is supposed to cause less 'shock' to the milk, when hot tea is added to it.


 * In that case, changed to tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but the milk is always warmed. Leaves the English style nicely ambiguous. Markalexander100 05:33, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

I like your change, it's very well phrased. cheers.

Origin of the word

 * It is tempting to correlate these names with the route that was used to deliver tea to these cultures, but this correspondence does not follow. For example, most British trade went through Canton, which uses cha.

This is hard to debate unless linguists of each language would trace the etymology of the word in their own language. It is obviously not true that the word ties to how tea was traded. However, it should be tied to how each culture received its first exposure to tea (via seaports or the Silk Road). For example, the Portugese learned about tea from Japanese, Japanese learned about tea via the northern Chinese (Japan is closer to the north). So the Portugeses call it Cha regardless of whether the trade was eventually dealt at and shipped from Amoy.

The word Cha is almost universal in Chinese, both northern and southern Chinese use Cha. The Amoy pronunciation of Te is almost an exception, however, Te had a more significant influence to the world's languages because Amoy was among the earliest Chinese seaports to the Europeans. When some cultures learned about Te first at Amoy, the word would just stick even after they found out almost everyone else called that thing Cha. As the article points out, some languages that used to call Te are now switching back to Cha for at least some varieties of tea. Canton and Amoy are very close geographically, European merchants who traded in Canton might be using interpreters who used the Amoy translation because Amoy made contact with the Western world with a longer history. It is fair to say, cultures that didn't need to use the Amoy seaport were more likely to call it Cha. Other cultures that used the sea route in the south China, can call it Cha (Cantonese) or Tea (Amoy). Or in other words, Tea is tightly tied to the sea route, Cha can be either via the sea route or the Silk Road. Kowloonese 16:55, 11 Aug 2004

Caption for picture of tea bush:
Juan Valdez dosen't work here.

Clarifications
"Tea is grown primarily in Mainland China, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Japan, Nepal, Australia, Argentina and Kenya."

I have not seen recent numbers for volume produced by country, but there are a few other countries that might warant mention. Korea; which has some pretty unique teas that they grow, Indonesia; which I beleive produces quite a lot of tea (although dwarfed by their coffee production), Malaysia; Thailand and Vietnam also produce tea (I beleive this is mostly consumed locally.) I was very surprised to find locally produced Pu Erh in Thailand (I have also had some nice Pu Erh from Vietnam.)
 * Perhaps the geographical plan will explain this. Pur-Erh is from Yunan. The border is pretty close to Vietname. Beside stayin in Yunan, Li-tribes also found in Vietname. sltan

"Unblended black teas are also identified by the estate they come from and the flush (first, second or autumn)."

My understanding is that the term "flush" is mostly used for Indian (esp. Darjeeling) tea. I have not seen the term used for teas outside of India. In taiwan, they often classify tea based on the season when the leaf was picked (Summer Bahjong, Winter Oolong, etc), however I have never seen the term flush used to describe taiwanese teas.
 * It is merely definition from different language sltan.

I have not seen the estate (which I beleive to be a very colonial concept) idea used in China. They tend to name their teas based on some geographic feature that is near where the tea is produced. Yellow River, WuYi Mountain, etc.
 * Chinese tea processing are more complicated than black tea. As quality play over quantity sltan.

"The CTC method is used for lower quality leaves that end up in tea bags and are processed by machines."

I recently visited a Tata estate in Kerala, India. They have about 250sq miles of tea and ALL of it is processed using the CTC method.

"Black tea is usually named after the region of origin: Darjeeling, Assam, Ceylon, etc. and further by estates and grades for quality leaf: e.g., "Darjeeling Lingia FTGFOP1"."

The "Finest Tippy Golden Flowering Orange Pekoe First Flush" method of classifying tea appears to be limited to India (I have seen some Sri Lankan teas using this nomenclature, but I think it's a marketing thing rather than a tradition.) I have never seen this method of classifying tea used for Chinese or Taiwanese tea.

"Jasmine tea is spread with jasmine flowers while oxidizing, and occasionally some are left in the tea as a decoration. Many other flowers, including roses and other fragrant blooms, are used as flavouring in tea in China."

I have heard (although I have not witnessed this process). That tea is often placed under hanging jasmine bushes over night. Apparently the "essence" (oil, I beleive) is transferred to the leaf. I have read that they will do this about 3 times for regular jasime teas and as much as 10 times for the superior grades of jasmine tea.
 * Myths. Jasmine tea never fetch a high price in China sltan

"In Sri Lanka, tea is served in the English style, with milk and sugar, but the milk is always warmed."

I found this in various places in India as well. I assumed that this was done in order to make sure that the milk was safe to drink (esp. for foreigners.) Although it might also have to do with not cooling the beverage.

"There are several tea ceremonies which have arisen in different cultures, the most famous of which are the complex, formal and serene Japanese tea ceremony and Yum Cha."
 * Japanese tea ceremony inherit the method from Tang Dynasty. In China. the ceremony has evovle to Kung-Fu-Tea. Yum Char is merely Hong Kong style of living. sltan

It would be great to have a good description of the chinese tea ceremony, which I believe is often called "Gung Fu/Kung Fu"(sp?) ceremony. From what I have witnessed, this is much less formal than Chado and is also more social, however there are definately very clear proceedures that should be followed, and taboos as well...

"Cold tea is very popular in Japan as well. In cafeterias and lunch-type restaurants, the meal is usually served with hot or cold green tea according to the customer's preferences. Most of the ubiquitous vending machines also carry a sometimes excessive selection of cold bottled teas."

I was delighted to find both cold and hot tea avaialble from vending machines all over japan. I have had some really good English style tea with milk and sugar out of a can in Japan... go figure! :)

"Since boiling point drops with altitude, this makes it difficult to brew black tea properly in mountainous areas."

I live over a mile high, I have found that it is quite easy to get boiling (100C) water by using a microwave, although I have not found any black teas where this has significantly improved the flavor of the finished brew.

"Water for green tea, according to most accounts, should be around 80 to 85°C &mdash; the higher the quality of the leaves, the lower the temperature."

When visiting Japan, I discovered that they tend to brew their very delicate (steam dried) teas at about 150F/65C, as someone who has been rather dissapointed with Japanese tea for years, this has completely changed my experience of the little islands leaf. My understanding is that brewing temperature has more to do with the un-infused moisture content of the leaf than it has to do with the quality of the leaf.

"Some teas, especially green teas and delicate Oolongs or Darjeeling teas, are steeped for shorter periods, sometimes less than 30 seconds. Using a tea strainer separates the leaves from the water at the end of the brewing time if a tea bag is not being used."

In China and Taiwan, Oolong is generally prepaired in the Gung Fu style. This calls for a small teapot (often a bit bigger than a fist) to be filled about 1/3 full of leaf. The leaf is usually washed with steaping temperature water for a few seconds. The resulting liquid is discuarded (this is often referred to as waking up the tea). Then the tea will be steaped for a short time (often less than 30 seconds for the first infusion) I have heard it said that the first infusion should be steaped for 4 slow breaths. I beleive this to be poetic rather than practical, but it is a reasonable middle ground for a lot of oolong teas. Many infusions can be brewed using the same leaf. I have heard it said by the Taiwanese that the 13 steaping is supposed to be the most sublime... as an amature, I am hardly ever able to get more than about 7 steapings out of a good quality Oolong.


 * When pouring water around 85 degrees, the temperature will drop a few degrees, depends how high you pour the tea. Premium Oolong or green tea should not steaped more than 15 seconds. Tanin will be release afterwards. Shorter than 15 seconds, the tea substance will dolute too little to give the taste. That's why Chinese call it Kung-Fu Tea. Just don't take the 13 steaping too serious.sltan


 * Yep :) Lot of work. Gong fu is described in article Chinese tea culture. Boiling point is not affected by method of heating the liquid (* well, with temperature of boiling its more compliacted). --Wikimol 15:46, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Roiboos/Mate
It seems like a lot of tea shops in the US are now serving Roiboos and Mate. I have seen Roiboos confusingly referred to as Red Tea... It might be worth linking to information on these products in order to clarify that they are not tea (as cool as they both are :)
 * Red tea is now a disambiguation page, pointing to Rooiboos or Black tea. 03:33, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Beefart says: I know that Californians do weird things but I can assure you that the word is spelled Rooibos, not Roibos or Roiboos or Roiboss. The word is Afrikaans and means "redbush", hence the confusion with red tea. Rooibos is a native shrub of the SW Cape Province and prefers very poor, mountainous soils. It is not closely related to Camellia.

Deleted Tea Companies
This is a very good article, lets not ruin it by adding a long list of tea companies since there are hundreds, and even if only the notable ones were listed there would still be a hundred or more. Instead if someone wants to make a list of tea companies, but a link under the links section and have an article that is just a list of tea companies instead of incorporating it into the main article. --Alex Krupp 15:08, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think a seperate article (e.g. List of tea companies) would be most appropriate for that sort of thing. It could be linked from this tea article. -- Logotu 13:48, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * To clarify my point further I think it is somewhat innapropriate to talk about teas in terms of companies for the purposes of an encyclopedia by tea. Tea is a plant and the company that distributes it has very little to do with tea itself. That would be like an article about water with a list of companies that sell bottled water. A more appropriate list would perhaps be notable tea gardens. In terms of brands, I can think of so many just off the top of my head: SpecialTeas, Upton, Lipton, Snapple, Arizona, Ito-En, HonesT, Harney and Sons, Stash, Republic of Tea, In Pursuit of Tea, etc. and those are only the really well known ones to people in the US only. What makes tea unique is how it is processed and the conditions in which it is grown, again with the analogy to water this would be like an article listing brands of water instead describing what characteristics distinguish different types of drinking water, and then maybe linking to a well known company that sells a bottled water of this type. --Alex Krupp 19:51, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * Your point is proven in that only one of these brands is familiar/available to this New Zealander. The reverse is prbably true, especially as some of our best known brands are owned by general food wholesalers rather than specialist tea companies. dramatic 21:22, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I had removed this from "varieties"

White teas produce a delicate liquor that often retains a slight residual sweetness. Green tea and black tea both have antioxidants, but different kinds. Green tea has a majority from catechins, particularly epigallocatechin gallate, whereas black tea has a greater variety of flavonoids. Oolong tea falls in between. It is not clear that the quantity or type of antioxidants present have any effect whatsoever on health. White tea, the very young tea leaves, is often considered another type, although on occasion people group it in with green due to the lower amount of processing.

--Wikimol 15:40, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * 1) it would be more appropriate at "Divisions of tea by processing technique" section
 * 2) it should be preceded by discussion of tea chemistry
 * 3) allready many remarks about white tea


 * In case anyone's wondering, I reverted Sam Spade's last edit (a very small change) because the previous version read better and was clearer. Exploding Boy 17:29, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

The following are removed. Scientificly and technically, Pur-Erh should not be consider as subclass of black tea. It is impossible to make Pur-Erh out from black tea. Instead, Pur-Erh should be correctly categorised under Green Tea.

Pu-erh (&#26222;&#27953;&#33590;): A special categories of tea from Yunnan province, China. The tea is usually compressed into shapes such as bricks, discs or spinning tops. There are lessen oxidixation forms, called green (&#38738;&#39292;) and mutual (&#29087;&#39292;) respectively. Mutual pur-erh is sometimes considered a subclass of black tea. Pu-erh is sometimes described as double-fermented: the second "fermentation" is by the action of microbes and moulds. While most teas are consumed within a year of production, pu-erh can be kept for over 50 years. The tea is often steeped for long periods of time or even boiled (Tibetans boil it overnight). Pu-erh is considered a medicinal tea in China.

-- sltan 14 Feb 2005

Industrial Revolution
I removed
 * Popularization of tea in the West (mainly in the British Empire) is linked to the Industrial Revolution. Colonial tea allowed the workers to adjust their internal rythms to factory work. Sugar provided extra energy.

because tt seems to me to be quite original theory. Or is it significant opinion somewhere?

Btw, IMO its not backed in facts. Tea become popular anywhere it come, including as diverse soccieties as Moroccan Touaregs, Mongol tribes, Imperial Russia and more. Vague time proximity to industrial revolution is mere coincidence, sugar wasn't historicaly so cheap. (Thais is not justification why not to represent it, just sidenote.) --Wikimol 21:16, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * The link between tea and Industrial Revolution seems to have been dealt with:
 * This is an interesting view to consider along with the theory that the reason Britain - and later Japan - industrialised so quickly in comparison with other countries is that they both had tea-drinking populations.
 * 
 * It has been argued that the dramatic fall in mortality in England starting in the 1740’s, which has been widely credited as being a necessary pre-condition for the urban and industrial revolutions, and which has hitherto never been explained, may have been one of the effects of the explosion of tea drinking.
 * Reductionist arguments that modern progress arises out of consumer behaviour are attractive but misleading. To argue that tea drinking created favourable conditions for revolutions in industry and colonisation runs up against similar problems as the hypothesis that the Roman Empire fell because of lead used in pottery. After all, Russia has been a tremendous consumer of tea, yet this hasn't helped its industrial efficiency. The highest per capita consumption of tea until recently was in Iraq. Britain has continued to drink large quantities of tea, in good times and bad. The drama of tea is not that of a discovery that changed history, but rather a chapter in the comparative history of globalisation, the entrancing and sinister story of how a mildly comforting beverage affected taste, class, colonisation and consumption.
 * -- Error 01:50, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This History is not very clear???
I read the article, and no history of tea was said. Actually, Tea is already mentioned in Shi Jing (476 BC) and many Chinese historical evens have related to tea. Does tea come from China???


 * No-one knows: . Markalexander100 03:42, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

YangXi seems to be incorrect
Under the Tea Preparation section, the word YangXi is used to connote unglazed clay pots. Is this correct? The most famous type of unglazed clay pot in China, HK, and Taiwan is the Yixing style pot from the Yixing region of China.

From the http://www.teapots.net site:

"At the beginning of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) in China, leaf infusion as we know it now became popular. The earliest examples of teapots come from this period, made from the zisha, or "purple" clay, of the YiXing region of China. Pottery in the YiXing tradition has been strong since the Sung Dynasty (960-1279); wares are valued for their fine texture, thin walls, and naturally beautiful coloration ranging from light buff to deep maroon tones. The transition from drinking bowls to teapots was a smooth one. YiXing teapots were, and still are, used to brew tea as well as act as the drinking vessel -- one sips directly from the spout of a single-serving pot. YiXing teapots gradually season, the unglazed clay absorbing the flavor of brewed tea, making them a favorite choice for tea lovers. The dissemination of YiXing teapots greatly influenced not only the forms of teapots found throughout the world, but also prompted the invention of hard-paste porcelain in the western world. (Modern YiXing teapots can be found at www.YiXing.com, along with information about the manufacture and use of these legendary pieces.)"

Suggest changing "boba milk tea" to "pearl milk tea"
Given that "boba milk tea" is a Taiwanese creation it seems a little strange to refer to it by its Cantonese slang name. I'd suggest changing to be more inline with the Taiwanese, since the relevant section explicitly mentions Taiwan.

"Recently, Boba milk tea from Taiwan has become an extremely popular drink among young people. This Asian fad spread to the USA in 2000, where it is generally called "bubble tea" or "pearl milk tea". (See news )"

Tea Culture: Expand the section on China
I suggest expanding the paragraph in Tea Culture regarding China to encompass its modern day aspects:

"In China, at least as early as the Song Dynasty, tea was an object of connoisseurship, and formal tea-tasting parties were held, comparable to modern wine tastings. As much as in modern wine tastings, the proper vessel was important; the white tea used at that time called for a dark bowl in which the tea leaves and hot water were mixed and whipped up with a whisk. The best of these bowls, glazed in patterns with names like oil spot, hare's fur, and tortoise shell, are highly valued today. The rituals and the traditional dark pottery were adopted in Japan beginning in the 12th century, and gave rise to the Japanese tea ceremony, which took its final form in the 16th century.

"Currently, in modern China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, tea houses can be found just about every neighborhood and business district. Chinese-style tea houses offer dozens of varieties of hot, cold, and iced tea concoctions. They also serve a wide variety of tea-friendly snack food. Most tea houses in Hong Kong and Taiwan are open 24 hours. After the local high schools let out, a Chinese tea house quickly becomes packed with students, and later at night plays host to insomniacs, night owls, and gangsters looking for a place to simply chill out. Formal tea houses also exist. They provide a wide range of Chinese and Japanese tea leaves available, as well as tea making accoutrements and a better class of snack food to enjoy while sipping one's tasty beverage once it has been brewed. Tea shops are also quite common in the Chinese territories. These are vendors who sell tea leaves, tea pots, and other related tea-making items."

Or something like that.

Not the only beverage called tea?
Since we've (I've) added a page for TEA the ale, how about:

"This article is about the caffeinated beverage. For alternative meanings, see tea (disambiguation)." Ojw 19:33, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * But that abbreviates to TEA, which we have a separate article and separate disambiguation for. I don't know if people will look for the ale under Tea. JRM 20:21, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)

pictures: date looks incorrect
Are those pictures really before 1915? They're in color. Something doesn't seem right.


 * Yes, I think the dates are right.  Prokudin-Gorskii was a well-known pioneer of colour photography in the Black Sea area at the time. Mark1 03:12, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * To clarify things, he actually took 3 photos of each scene with red, green, and blue filters. While he was not able to combine these into a single image, this has be done with modern technology. So, true color photography did not exist at the time, but we do have color photographs from that time.  Seems like a paradox, doesn't it ? StuRat 21:05, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Tea quotes
Quotes should preferrably be limited to one or two "defining quotes" (typically one by a person and some about a person, in case of people), to prevent the section from growing disproportionately large. Since I'm pretty sure we won't agree on what the "defining quotes" for tea should be, and since we have Wikiquote for a reason, I've moved them all. JRM 11:54, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC) If we have to go halfway between "none at all" and "everything anybody can think of", what, in your opinion, is the best way to go about it? A vote? A coin toss? A careful cross-section of cultures (maybe a Chinese, Japanese and Western quote, observing the exploits of tea across the world)? Or just keep everything and accept the possibility of quote overkill (the easy, but also slightly cowardly way out)? PS. I'm drinking tea right now. :-) JRM 20:55, 2005 Jan 18 (UTC)
 * I disagree with moving all of them. Surely in an encyclopedia something as culturally important as tea can have some quotes in the article.  I certainly would expect that in a print encyclopedia. -- WormRunner | Talk 17:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Surely. Which ones? The problem is that a "Quotes" section acts like a magnet to contributors. (I never thought I'd call that a bad thing :-) I thought the current section with its 8 quotes was already close to overdoing it. I thought long and hard about what quotes I wanted to keep, and I'm sorry to say that I couldn't make up my mind. They're all good! If you put a gun to my head, I'd probably go with the Japanese proverb, "a man without tea in him is incapable of understanding truth and beauty", but that's just my personal choice.

Perhaps the problem could be resolved by a template which draws from a pool of appropriate quotes at random (with the means to rotate in another, like in bugzilla). Could be used broadly SM 23:13, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Price comparison
Since black tea farmers receive a low price for their produce, this has led to black tea being available as a 'fair trade' item in some countries.

This contradiction can be clearly seen in the price of the tea leaf sold. In year 2001, A premium Tek Gwan Ying tea(&#38081;&#35266;&#38899;) fetching a auction price of HKD 12,000(Euro 1,500) for 100 grams. While premium black tea such as darjeeling, rarely cost less more than 1,300 INR (25 Euro) per 1000 grams.


 * This contradicts conventional wisdom - please cite your sources. Top Darjeelings are thought to have quite high auction prices per kg (such as $390.70 / kg, 2003 record ). Also, if the thesis is generaly about farmers, average prices should be compared, not some dubious records. --Wikimol 21:49, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * You may refer to the chinese version of google - sky-limit tea price some statistic, Taiwan green tea 46,000 NT(USD1,100)/600 grams. Premium tea price normalise in year 2004 RMB 3000(USD 375)/0.5KG. . While rare premium tea such as Tar-Hong-Pao year 2002 auction at RMB 18,000(USD2,300)/20grams) Please take note most auction are result of speculation. The price section help elobrorate possible exploitation , which the benefit doesn't end up in the farmer pocket.
 * Japanese tea farmer income need more research. As popular Sencha sold for USD 80/kg, better grade will sold for USD383.00/kg which available from normal retail shop. -- sltan


 * Thanks for valuable info. Maybe you can write whole section of the article about tea prices? (Be Bold) In my opinion it would be better to have separate section about prices, which is interesting per se. And possibly sepparate section about farmers income. Certianly top auction prices, average tea prices, volume of tea produced and farmers income are somehow related, but as you said, in case of top prices the benefint may end up elsewhere. --Wikimol 11:20, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the idea. IMHO, it is much complicated than just price. Exploitation also mean execessive tax that cause civil rebelion, such as in many dynasty in China, and also the America Boston Tea Party .  -- sltan

Unusual variations

 * I have remove Souchong from the unusual variations. Indeed, it is no unusual variation. The whole section have been place undr Black tea
 * 1) Lapsang souchong (&#27491;&#23665;&#23567;&#31181; or &#28895;&#23567;&#31181;): Originally from Fujian, China, Lapsang souchong is a black tea which is dried over burning pine, thereby developing a strong smoky flavour. -- [[User:sltan|sltan]
 * I have removed the following misinformation about Chong Cha:
 * Literally worm tea, this brew is made from the seeds of tea shrubs instead of the leaves.

Chong Cha is actually made from the droppings of certain caterpillars... hence the name "worm tea". Cited (see Tea history tab) The Food Insects Newsletter, Vol 3 No 2, July 1990, pg. 6, "The Research Institute of Insect Resources in Yunnan Province, China". Here's all the relevent text from the article: "A study that will not sound too appealing to many Westerners is on the presumed health benefits of Chongcha, a special tea made from the feces of Hydrillodes morosa (a noctuid moth larva) and Aglossa dimidiata (a pyralid moth larva). The former eats mainly the leaves of Platycarya stobilacea. the latter the leaves of Malus seiboldii. Chongcha is black in color, freshly fragrant, and has been used for a long time in the mountain areas of Guangxi, Funan and Guixhou by the Zhuan, Tong and Miao nationalities.  It is taken to prevent heatstroke, counteract various poisons, and to aid digestion, as well as being considered helpful in alleviating cases of diarrhea, nosebleed and bleeding hemorroids.  Whatever the extent of its preventive or curative benefits, Chongcha apparently serves as a good 'cooling beverage' having a higher nutritive value than regular tea." ...Since this doesn't have a lot to do with tea in general, I thought it best not to add to the References list on the main page.  Here's another question: if this page is for Camellia teas, does Chong Cha belong on it? Are varieties of Chong Cha produced from caterpillars fed on Camellia sininsis leaves, as well as from the moths' preferred food plants listed above? I have read elsewhere (and can't find the reference now) that one type of pu-er is produced from the droppings of caterpillars who consumed fresh pu-er tea leaves. Could this just be confusion, stemming from similar maturation methods used for Chong Cha and pu-er teas? -- krnntp 00:14, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
 * My original edit on this subject was in response to an anonymous edit apparently taking issue with the level of detail, rather than the content, so mine was a compromise edit, keeping what I thought was the underlying point, without appearing to digress on the moths' eating habits. I have no knowledge of this tea, and certainly no inclination to drink it! The comment on this edit leads me to believe that I might have been following an edit by krnntp.


 * Yes - the anonymous edits were krnntp prior to my biting the bullet and signing up for an account. In removing the "tea seeds" description of chong cha, I was originally too smart for my own good and, wanting to leave open the possibility that some worm tea is produced from C. sinensis or pu-erh C. sinensis -fed larvae, I introduced ambiguous language which unfortunately made it sound as though they were definitely fed C. sinensis and other foods were an afterthought. Then I re-read my edit with fresh eyes, realised it was misleading, and removed it. Krnntp 18:27, 4 November 2005 (UTC)


 * On the strength of the above quote, which I found cited here, I've removed chongcha altogether from from the article (it should get its own, however), and consolidated the vestigial "Variations" into the one above. Please see my other comment for my concerns about problems remaining in this article. -SM 06:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Tea leaf Proceessing
I think the all information related to Black tea section should moved to Black Tea. Respecitve info inside Variety section also been moved to respective tea topics. -- sltan

orgin of tea plant
"It is not known whether the tea plant was indigenous to China, India or both, "

This is quite unprofessional. Any one has a bit of knowledge in tea history knows that wild tea plants were discoverd by botanists in Sichuan, Yunan, Quizhou in China and also in India. IMo, tea trees were indigenous to China, then spread to India.

The part on "history" is poorly written. The writer does know any thing about tea history [Anon]


 * The writer does know any thing about tea history. Oh good.  Mark1 03:49, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Scientificly there is DNA inspection of tea plant from China and India.   The DNA inspection reveal that tea used by India to process black tea are originate from China. Although native tea plants exists in India mountains, it is never put into use. In addition, there is no record from India history about tea, until British colonisation.
 * I suggest we leave the history context as it until we can get the species name use in the DNA research. Sltan17 Feb 2005.


 * Please look at Camellia sinensis. The description of the Assam, China and Cambodia varieties were taken from a website that belonged to a Tea Research Laboratory in Jorhat, Assam (tocklai.org).  The website is presently down.  According to the site, there are significant morphological differences between the Assam and China varieties.  Historically, the British tried to grow the China variety in Assam soon after colonization, but the plants did not survive the climate. Chaipau 18:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just reviewed some recent literature (for a related querry - see bottom of this page) and can confirm that the cited references and, indeed, every source I've seen confirm that wild assam and china teas are different forms (if given taxonomic rank, varieties rather than species) and that they are truly native to their respective regions. I couldn't access the one DNA study I found, but the abstract doesn't suggest a chinese origin for assam tea (which would be a most surprising finding). Doubtless wild tea in China and assam shares a common ancestor, at some point in the geological past, which might or might not have grown in China. Upshot: tea plants are native to India AND China and various countries in-between. Mark Nesbitt 20:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Tea and Teapot
Teapot play an important roles on tea culture. Just a few line of description and link to the teapot wiki will do sltan 17 Feb 2005.

Sugar in Tea
Just a small point, but tea in the UK is normally without sugar, it's the new generation that are taking sugar.

Working on a tea stall gives good knowledge :)

Bijee please stop changing Tea
I am sorry Bijee but "Cha" is not an indo aryan word. Cha is derived from Cantonese. You are fabricating history and I have seen your posts on numerous articles relating to Indian History and Chinese history. India has not history of tea drinking before the arrival of the British. Please do not change articles to represent your nationalist point of view.

Mentioning "cold water" in definition or elsewhere
I've heard of ancient chinese recipe that refers to preparing the white tea with cold water by steeping it for a night in YiXing teapot. Therefore it might be useful to mention the possibility of using cold water in definition or somewhere else. Oleg Vorobyov

"processed leaves" vs. "dried leaves" in definition
I would like to suggest introducing "processed leaves" instead of "dried leaves" into definition of tea, since "dried leaves" might mean that they are just harvested and dried which refer only to white tea. While "processed" might refer to more complex procedure and therefore include drying, fermentation and all other stages (even pressing and aging!) referring to all types of tea including CTC as well as aged Pu Erh Being Cha. Unfortunately I'm not native English speaker therefore "processed" might not be the best term. Oleg Vorobyov

Tea Articles, templates, better organisation, more articles
Templates and Wikiproject

I have set up a WikiProject_Tea to coordinate the creation of good information in detail on tea varieties (i.e. Da Hong Pao) and specifications, maybe with the support of people expanding to the categories (i.e. White tea) to make a coherent view of tea. The basic idea is there is a need for people with tea and with time and with a digital photo camera to take pictures, anyway enough said, have a look at


 * The Wikiproject at WikiProject_Tea
 * Example converted pages at Yunnan tea, Keemun tea, Vietnam tea

--Iateasquirrel 00:02, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Yellow
Yellow tea is not an unusual variety, would everyone agree to moving it up? I am not sure about Lapsang Souchong, it is really a black (red!) tea but it is quite unusual.

Tea Consumption
The aricle says that Ireland is the largest tea consumer per capita - this is not the case - see http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lif_tea_con
 * I don't know enough about Britain and Ireland, but the "Nationmaster" graph is definitly incomplete and/or bogus. It does not have India, Iran, Turkey, Russia or China on it, all very heavy consumers. I suspect it is based on tea importation, not consumption. --Stephan Schulz 08:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Heres another page with some stats from 1998 - per capita is at the bottom http://www.tea.org.au/world/sub2.html - here Ireland is highest.

Question about caffeine
As far as I've understood all tea contains caffeine, and in all the tea types the caffeine does infuse into the water upon brewing. One day I stood in for a friend at a coffee shop, and found customers asking for a tea without caffeine, and I would reccomend a fruit infusion, but be answered "no, that's not tea, don't you have some green tea?" I would answer yes we do, but that holds caffeine. This would cause the customer to ridicule me. Happened three times that day, so if I'm right, then this must be a very common misunderstanding. If I'm wrong, and the caffeine in green tea somehow does not enter the water, then the article should mention it.


 * Green tea has caffeine, on average slighly less than black tea per gramm of black tea, but it is not significant. Of course caffeine is very soluble in water, so if you drink the second and following infusions (as is frequently done with green tea), there is very little caffeine left. --Stephan Schulz 09:52, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Enjoying tea-the "modern" way... tea sticks
One of the more modern forms of tea consumption, an alternative to the tea bag, are Tea Sticks. The first known tea sticks originated in Holland in the mid 1990's, where a company by the name of Venezia Trading produced a tea stick named Ticolino. (cozy or little tea) At the turn of the millennium the Serengeti Tea Co. purchased Venezia Trading and has since "reinvented" the tea stick. Reducing brewing time, increasing taste and aroma, reforming stick presentation and expanding the tea line. The Serengeti Tea Co. now offers 6 different blends of their Ticolino Tea Sticks. Ticolino are dubbed as single serving tea sticks which use an infusing technology to brew the tea leaves inside, releasing the flavor and aroma. The company also claims that the sticks to not drip and can cleanly be removed from the cup and placed in the trash, a claim I can confirm. Ticolino Tea sticks use 1 layer of aluminum 8 micrometers thick, sandwiched between two layers of food safe polypropylene 50 micrometers thick. There is a good amount of elasticity allowing the stick to regain its form even if forcibly crushed. Serengeti Tea Co. declined comment on questions related to manufacturing, citing production secrets. Serengeti Tea Co. produces Ticolino Tea Sticks in the United States at the Culver City, California factory. www.serengetitea.com

Tea Culture--China, bursting at the seams
Though the section now looks messy, I'm not sure if the "Chinese Tea Culture" part is relevant/works in another part of this article. Suggestions on reorganization? -- Sjschen 07:18, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Technical correctness
"Clearly tea (Camellia sinensis) was indigenous in China. China is the motherland of tea", History of tea in China and yet Black tea refers to what is by name Red Tea. Whilst Red tea is very strangely linked to somthing that is not a tea at all. Something is wrong I feel. Just because it is marketed as Red Tea does not mean this is technically correct.

I propose:


 * Black tea -> Red Tea
 * Pu-Erh -> Black Tea (with addition about Hunan teas and cleanup)
 * Green tea -> Chinese Green tea + Japanese Green tea
 * Tea Culture created << main Tea article
 * Blends and additives crated << main Tea article


 * Adoption of WikiProject_Tea
 * Adoption of WikiProject_Tea/Picture_Guidelines and push towards more pictures

I don't know how vote systems work, but just post what you think I guess. --Iateasquirrel 00:48, 6 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with the Green tea bit since the Green tea normally consumed by Chinese and thought of by Chinese when they see the term "Green tea" is not the same stuff as Japanes Green tea (little or no oxidation). The problem I see with this classfication is that most Chinese do not commonly use the term "Green tea". "Tea" by itself alludes to "Green tea" in Chinese much like "meat" alludes to "pork" or "pig meat" to most Chinese. Example: If you go to the Taiwanese Tea Store "Tien Ren" and ask for Green Tea you sometimes get a strange look (most of their tea is green, it's like going to a tea store to ask for tea) followed by them asking you for the type of green tea. This is because most tea drinking chinese usually buy and refer to tea by its type, be it "Tie Kwan Yin", "Xiang Pien", "Pow Chong", "Oolong",... etc. Perhap eliminate "'Chinese Green Tea'" and just throw in the types of chinese green teas? I can't say much about the Japanese greens since I don't drink much of them (very "fresh hay" like) but I wouldn't be surprised if Japanese tea drinkers do something similar.


 * As for the Black tea to Red Tea and the Pu-Erh to Black tea business, I don't agree at all. I believe this would only increase confusion (and possibly cause lexicology battles). Noting in the Black Tea section that "Black Tea" in the western world is known as "Red Tea" in chinese is good enough for me. Finally, most tea drinking fanatics know Pu-Erh as...well..."Pu-Erh". Asking for Black Tea in any tea shop be it western or eastern will result in "English Breakfast" type teas, which are great, but not Pu-Erh. That's my five cents on this topic, thanks! :) - Sjschen 21:20, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I guess I agree with the Pu-Erh etc. This lexicology is really difficult here; for the correct term is Red Tea yet the used one amongst the general public at large in the United States and United Kingdom. We have to I guess consider Make_articles_useful_for_readers. After doing some research I now think too that keeping BLack tea as it is would be a correct (but mentioning that the term is incorrect in Chinese tea) but I still think we should strongly consider making Red tea point to Black tea and not some kind of Roobios herb. With more talk it might be a reality in separating the Green tea article. It would also be good if people edited WikiProject_Tea so that it has opinions of more people and is better. --Iateasquirrel 00:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Added a bit to the Pu-erh sub-section. The whole explaination may be a bit confusing, as such, feel free to hack to bits or delete. Also deleted the "Unusual" portion of "Unusual Variations", since I think "Unusual" is too strongly dependant on personal POV. These teas may be variations, but I do not really find them unusual. --Sjschen 05:25, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Some people consider Pu-Erh to be anything but an un-usual variation (see http://www.pu-erh.net). I am moving Lapsang Souchong and Rize Tea to Black Tea because they are made from leaf and their geographical location nor processing method make them too out of the ordinary definitions for Black tea. --Iateasquirrel 16:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I can't say I agree with this move. Yes, Lapsang souchong is a form a black tea and hence it should be placed under the black tea section. But removing it completely from here (the Tea section) for the sake of "technical" accuracy actually reduces the quality of article. If anything, the Lapsang should be mentioned as a sub sub entry of black tea with a statement. Worse comes to worse it should be only placed under the "Blends and Additives" section and not removed in entirety. -- Sjschen 15:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've added it to the Blends and Additives, I guess you could say the smoke is an additive. There is really no mention of tea production in the Mount Wuyi article, which if no-one minds, I'll add a little about the 'Oolong' (they are very different to pelleted Oolong tea, I prefer Light Green Tea as in Master Lam Kam book personally, but that seems not to be a technically correct name) teas made there and ofcourse Lapsang Souchong, does anyone know anything about any Green or White teas grown there (I've heard about a Red Tea from there, but no info in 'English' on the net about it). --Iateasquirrel 20:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Another point I wanted to mention is the problem with finding information in English about some teas (such as Huang Mei Gui Oolong for example) hence if anyone knows Chinese and can help find more information there is a (very small) list on WikiProject_Tea. --Iateasquirrel 20:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Medicinal tea needs to find a home outside Chinese tea and seems to be a neglected article. --Iateasquirrel 01:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Health Benifits of Tea
Ok I see now there is a separate artical about the health benefits of tea, however it is not mentioned at all in this artical. I believe we should put a sentance along the line of "tea also may have several health benifits see "link to health benifits of tea". Since health is a big part of tea I believe we should link to the health artical somewhere in this articals text

New Boston Tea Party ref
I added a new reference to the Boston Tea Party in the United States section, since the lack of availability of various types of teas in the US needed an explanation. The Boston Tea Party is also referred to elsewhere, but I think the redundancy is justified in this case, for those who don't read the entire article, but only certain sections. StuRat 23:24, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that patriotism caused a reduction in the drinking of tea in the early US (remember, about 50% of the population were loyalists). It's much more likely that the reduction in availability caused the difference - Britain controlled much of the tea trade (and most other overseas trade) at the time. --Stephan Schulz 21:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * True, but if only the 50% who were Patriots stopped drinking tea, that would represent a substantial reduction, wouldn't it ? In addition, many Loyalists may have found tea was unavailable or too expensive, as a result of supply disruptions caused by the American Revolution.  StuRat 22:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, the first half of your statement is unsubstantiated, the second one is essentially what I said. I have no problem with the American revolution as a cause of reduced tea consumption. I just have a problem with the statement that patriotism caused this reduction (unless there is a reasonable source for this). Given that the US only was created after the revolution, patriotism seems to be the wrong term anyways (Mel Gibson or no Mel Gibson). --Stephan Schulz 23:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Fine. Here is a source:


 * "The tea boycott had a lasting effect on tea drinking in the colonies. Tea consumption fell from 900,000 pounds in 1769 to 237,000 pounds following the boycott, Leach noted, adding that tea consumption never rebounded, with coffee becoming the more popular beverage thereafter."


 * http://tritown.gmnews.com/News/2002/0110/Front_Page/017.html


 * StuRat 00:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Another source

U.S. per capita food consumption Coffee, tea, cocoa Pounds per capita per year


 * Year	Coffee	Tea	Cocoa
 * 2003	9.5	.81	5.7
 * 2002	9.2	.83	4.9
 * 2001	9.5	.87	5.6
 * 2000	10.3	.84	5.9
 * 1999	9.8	.88	5.6
 * 1998	9.3	.88	5.4
 * 1997	9.1	.77	5.0
 * 1996	8.7	.81	5.2
 * 1995	7.9	.84	4.5
 * 1994	8.1	.87	4.8
 * 1993	9.0	.89	5.3
 * 1992	10.0	.86	5.7
 * 1991	10.3	.79	5.7
 * 1990	10.3	.73	5.4
 * 1989	10.1	.73	4.9
 * 1988	9.8	.74	4.8
 * 1987	10.2	.74	4.8
 * 1986	10.5	.76	4.8
 * 1985	10.5	.75	4.6
 * 1984	10.2	.76	4.3
 * 1983	10.1	.74	4.0
 * 1982	9.9	.74	3.7
 * 1981	10.0	.77	3.6
 * 1980	10.3	.78	3.4

Green bean equivalent for coffee. Dry leaf equivalent for tea. Bean equivalent for cocoa. Calculated from unrounded data.

Source: USDA/Economic Research Service. Last updated Dec. 21, 2004.

Too big
As the article is allready too long, I'd suggest removal of relatively long recently expanded US part to separate article. IMO in the main Tea article several sentences should be enough, from the point of topic tea, US are one of less relevant countries. --Wikimol 16:03, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Less relevant? Maybe we're not connoisseurs but we certainly drink vast quantities of the stuff. But I agree the article is getting a little long. Ellsworth 17:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
 * According to - import of tea for consumption - USA cca 100 megatons, for some perspective - Poland 32mt, Morocco 42mt, Pakistan 120mt, UK 126mt... World production is about 3100mt.
 * I don't want to hurt your feelings or anything :-) Just wanted to say, info about USA now (IMO) occupies inappropriate space, not all this info is highly relevant, space in this article is a limited resource, thus USA part is a candidate for separate article. If there would have been two screens long description of Korean tea ceremony, I would propose separation of Korean tea ceremony. :-) --Wikimol 19:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

A modest proposal, The U.S. Section is important, should stay, and be condensed as follows, SM 07:59, 13 September 2005 (UTC) --
 * United states (Only heading)
 * Hot Tea (one paragraph, no heading)
 * no "afternoon tea" except hotels
 * typical diner-style tea
 * fine tea comeback in the 80's
 * fine teas in better restaurants
 * Iced Tea (one paragraph, no heading)
 * Proper Iced Tea (unsweetened, refillable, but not just Texas, actally most of the west)
 * Fake Iced Tea (powder, soda fountain, cans, horrid flavorings)
 * Horrid Fake Iced Tea inflicted upon Canada and Europe (where proper iced tea is now as a result hard to come by, which makes US section significant, IMHO)
 * Long Island Iced Tea (one very brief paragraph, no heading, with ref to separate article)

The US Section is also very wrong!! Prior to the World Wars Green Tea and Black Tea was 40% and 40% with the additional 20% preffering Oolong tea or so says the US FDA http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/296_tea.html. Due to the War the US couldn't get Green Tea so most US Tea Drinkers switched over to Black Tea. It also makes no sense as Red Tea, except when refering to a tistane of Rooibos, is black tea.

The Iced Tea section is also wrong. The Myth is that Iced Tea was invented at the 1904 St. Louis Worlds Fair when an Oolong Tea Vender dumped his hot tea over ice cubes (It was 103 degrees F durring the fair so hot tea wasn't selling). The history is incorrect becuase there is evidence that tea was consumed cold throughout the US South with historical documents collaberating this as early as 1883 and even though they have removed the refference to the fair the date is still there! Also in the states iced tea can be purchased at almost every resturant in the US (I can not recall anyplace that fails to serve it) including the Northern States. In The Southern States, starting about middway through Missouri, Iced Tea is served very sweet, unless you ask for it unsweet, however in the northern states it is served unsweet unless you ask for sweet tea. Western states from Texas west is typically served unsweet, unless you ask for sweet tea. Finally hot tea is almost always served alongside coffee. This is true in almost every state.

Also in the US the largest supplier of Tea is Argentina where they use machines to harvest it. The FDA article explains why Argentina is the supplier although they don't mention that the strain grown in Argintina does not discolor when iced.

Finally Tea can be cultivated in the US as far north as St. Louis, although it is typically grown as decoration or for personal uses as the US labor costs make it economically unfeasible to commercially grow tea using traditional methods , however there is a Commercial US Tea Plantation that utilizes mechanization. These pages from the USDA have photos of the US Plantation and It's Mechanized Tea Harvester http://www.usda.gov/oc/photo/96cs0393.htm http://www.usda.gov/oc/photo/opc-tea.htm. As I understand it there is also a project to grow tea on the side of volcanoes in Hawaii also.

Also Bigelow has re-opened the US Plantation as of Jan 2006 http://www.bigelowtea.com/act/ and America Classic Tea is once agin for sale to the public, BTW this Tea is what is served at the White House.

-- Well I googled History of Iced Tea and the first result was this http://www.whatscookingamerica.net/History/IcedTeaHistory.htm  "1879 - The oldest sweet tea recipe (ice tea) in print comes from a community cookbook called Housekeeping in Old Virginia, by Marion Cabell Tyree, published in 1879"

and here is a non-sweet tea recipe;

"1884 - This may be the first printed recipe using black tea, which has become so universal today, and could also be the earliest version of pre-sweetened iced tea, the usual way of making it in the South today. Mrs. D. A. (Mary) Lincoln, director of the Boston Cooking School, published Mrs. Lincoln's Boston Cook Book: What to Do and What Not to Do in Cooking in 1884. On page 112, there it is: iced tea, proving that the drink was not just a Southern drink."

Can we change it yet?

Turkey
I rewrote the sentence about tea "replacing" alcohol as the social drink, since beer, wine and raki are all readily available in Türkiye. I assume that it's not all Euro. and Aus. holidaymakers snarfing the stuff up, is it? Ellsworth 17:08, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * This way or the other, the wording isn't fortunate, as it implies "alcohol is the normal social beverage" which is "replaced" by the tea. I'll try to expand the section and describe it in more detail. --Wikimol 18:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Lack of real history
There is virtually nothing on how the British created the modern tea Industry. Nothing about how they set up tea plantations throughout the world and how tea was smuggled from China and how coolies were initially transported from China to India and then coolies taken from India to other tea plantations in places like Kenya, Uganda and Sri Lanka creating racial tensions with the indigenous populations e.g. the expulsian of Asians from Uganda and the terrorist activities of the Tamil Tigers. How did thet get to be a featured article!? Jooler


 * In that case, why don't you write something about it? -- Sjschen 02:18, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Tea strainer?
The link to tea strainer is very dubious (at this time, it's a redirection to a redirection to Filter (chemistry)). I, however, do not know what a tea strainer is, never having seen one, so may I request someone who knows to look at it? --Dolda2000 19:46, 5 October 2005 (UTC)


 * You're in luck, my Dad has one, and I have a digital camera. The next time I visit I will take a pic and then make an article to match. Thanks for identifying the need ! StuRat 20:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

"The proper term for these beverages is tisane"
Surely it isn't Wikipedia's place to offer opinions on highly dubious issues of 'proper' English usage? The word 'tea' has been used for herbal infusions as well as true tea for as long as it has been in the English language - both OED citations are the same year. It is vastly more commonly used than 'tisane'; in fact I've never met anyone who uses the word 'tisane' who wasn't French. 'Tea' is the normal, correct English word for any beverage made by infusing a plant. The fact that it is mildly ambiguous is unfortunate but doesn't make it any less correct.

I don't really see any need to introduce the word 'tisane' into this article at all - save it for the herbal tea article. I'd suggest the para could just read like this:


 * The expression "herbal tea" or simply "tea" is also used, by extension, for any fruit or herb infusion, even if it does not contain Camellia sinensis (such as "rosehip tea" or "chamomile tea"). This article is concerned with the "true" teas; that is, those made of Camellia sinensis. Harry R


 * Agreed. We might also make the first sentence more elegant, as in: "Tea is a caffeine-containing beverage made by steeping the dried leaves or buds of the tea shrub Camellia sinensis in hot water for a few minutes." - the "infusion" part is ugly, and this we we also mention that the plant is also called "tea shrub".--Stephan Schulz 14:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * sounds good to me. I'll edit it now, I think. Harry R 18:53, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I've changed it. Thee edits aren't exactly as discussed, so you might want to check it.Harry R 19:07, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I see it's been changed again. . If you're going to argue for what words mean on the basis of their etymology, 'tisane' means 'barley water', and so presumably should only be used to refer to drinks made from barley. I don't really see why it's necessary to even touch on the issue of 'tisane' vs. 'herbal tea' on this page, which isn't about herbal tea anyway, but whatever. Harry R 21:10, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

There is no argument, and no need for one, the contrast with tea proper had to be made, and alternatives offered by way of disambiguation, which I characterized only as, "more precise", not "more correct". Actually, I hadn't encountered the word tisane before this article, so my protection of it is somewhat born of gratitude. Infusion, however, is quite common, both in consumer product liturature, and particularly in herbalist circles. -SM 23:37, 10 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Why does any more contrast need to be made than the contrast I made in my edit? As far as I can see, you've just sacrificed clarity and brevity to make a point which isn't even particularly relevant to the subject of the article. Any discussion about different terms for herbal tea would be better had at the 'herbal tea' article - all we need here is an indication that herbal teas are not the subject.Harry R 09:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)


 * For once I agree with the fact that in this case Herbal Tea as in the case of Red Tea Vs. Black Tea has to be maintained, though noting that it is incorrect and other names are sometimes used to avoid confusion. Such things as Rose Tea might be confused with Huang Mei Gui Tea or Cinnamon Tea might be thought of as a herbal tea; so otherwise its best to stick to Tea as in Tea, Ch'a etc. --Iateasquirrel 16:58, 13 October 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I'll concede I'm outnumbered. I think the paragraph is starting to show the evidence of too much compromise editing, though; here's an attempt to rewrite it from scratch for simplicity and clarity -


 * "The word 'tea' is also used more loosely to refer to any drink prepared in the same way; for example, an infusion of camomile flowers is known as 'camomile tea'. Because these drinks do not contain any part of the tea plant, they are usually referred to as 'herbal teas', 'herbal infusions' or 'tisanes' to distinguish them from true tea. This article is only concerned with true teas - those prepared from Camellia sinensis". Harry R 10:23, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I appreciate the collaborative discussion, however I have two objections. First, I did rewrite the paragraph for clarity- it is not a "compromise edit".  Second, I like it much better that your proposal (I have read the two several times now).  Why is it so important to denuance the current one?  It is informative, clear- I would say even elegant, IMHO- and has nothing obviously superfluous in it. Actual is softer and less judgemental than true, also only used once to establish the contrast. It flows, reread the two (I've just tweaked the current one very slightly for flow, infusions of fruit or herbs),


 * "[current] The expression herbal tea is often used to refer to infusions of fruit or herbs containing no actual tea (such as rosehip tea or chamomile tea). A more precise (though less common) term for this is tisane, or herbal infusion (both bearing an implied contrast with tea). This article is concerned exclusively with preparations and uses of the tea plant, Camellia sinensis, the Minnan word for which is the etymological origin of our word tea."


 * "[proposed] 'The word 'tea' is also used more loosely to refer to any drink prepared in the same way; for example, an infusion of camomile flowers is known as 'camomile tea'. Because these drinks do not contain any part of the tea plant, they are usually referred to as 'herbal teas', 'herbal infusions' or 'tisanes' to distinguish them from true tea. This article is only concerned with true teas - those prepared from Camellia sinensis'."


 * Reasons I prefer my version, in no particular order. 'Tisane' is not more precise than 'herbal tea'; it's exactly synonymous. Having three parentheses in the course of two short sentences strikes me as a poor piece of prose styling. The etymological origin of the word is not really relevant to the issue; the first paragraph has already made it clear that the drink is named after the plant, and the etymology is dealt with effectively in the body of the article. 'True' is a standard way of distinguishing between popular usage and strict usage, and I don't think it implies any particular judgement about which is better. The article is not really concerned with 'preparations and uses of the tea plant' - it doesn't, for example, make any reference to the use of tea oil in cooking, or the use of tea for dying. Rather, it's about tea, the drink.Harry R 13:27, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * One can count on Nohat to dumb something down, and call it style. Are his harsh judgements born of a grudge? That said, I like his edit better than Harry R's, and find nothing to which to object save his edit comment and summary action. Horay for the little guy, the regular Joe!


 * P.S. Harry, you'd convinced me to drop the third pair of parentheses (though not the text). Herbal Tea, in contrastive use, is oxymoronic, so I thought it less precise.


 * -SM 21:49, 14 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I can assure you that I drew no connection between my edits here and the discussion on the MoS talk page. Given that, characterizing my edits as "dumbing down" and insinuating my edits were motivated by a grudge seem to be inflammatory in intention rather than informative and in need of correction. Regardless, I'm pleased that you found nothing in my edits that warranted your objection. Nohat 09:37, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * My remarks were not inflammatory, they were accusatory, on two levels. I sincerely think you have dumbed-down the paragraphs, consistent with your earlier remarks, without any sense of the awkwardness that you introduced. If you say that you drew no connection between this and the earlier discussion, I'll accept that, but am at a loss for an explanation for, that was a really crappily-written intro. this is better, tossed into a measured, considered discussion. -SM 02:59, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Please explain reversions
Smaines: you have repeatedly reverted to this sentence:


 * This article is concerned exclusively with preparations and uses of the tea plant, Camellia sinensis, the Minnan word for which is the etymological origin of the English word tea.

This sentence contains 2 separate ideas: first, that this article is about the tea plant Camellia sinensis; second, that the word tea comes form Minnan. I can't see how they're related at all except that they both concern tea. Please explain how these two ideas are so closely related that they should be in the same sentence. Nohat 07:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Moriori has just edited the article so that is says:


 * This article is concerned exclusively with preparations and uses of the tea plant Camellia sinensis which is the Minnan etymological origin of the English word tea.


 * This is incorrect. The Minnan word for "tea" is something like "te", not "camellia sinensis". The construction favored by Smaines was misleading because it led readers to think that the Minnan word for tea is "camellia sinensis", even though that's not what it actually said because of the "for which". This construction is convoluted, not particularly idiomatic, and in this case has been shown empirically to be misleading. Nohat 08:03, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, I thought I did a pretty good job in making it clear that the Minnan word for tea is camellia sinensis . Pity it wasn't accurate tho. I was trying to disamb a very amb passage, and failed to see the two separate ideas in the passage which Nohat has explained. Seems to me Smaines is pressing for his particular usage of English which is not as clear as it could be. Incidentally, I reverted a Smaines edit back to the Nohat edit which superceded my mistake. No Harm done. Moriori 08:23, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

I tried to respond to this earlier, but you were both hacking on this page, I guess, resulting in an edit conflict. I don't have time to teach grammar, or reply to nohat's convoluted readings. My words are my children, please stop butchering them. -SM 08:55, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The fact that Moriori even has to read it again is evidence enough that the construction is poor and misleading. You should just accept that it's a bad sentence that needs to be changed. Wikipedia is not an outlet for your complex syntactic acrobatics. If the writing on Wikipedia misleads readers, then it is the writing that needs changing, not the readers. Stop reverting the clarifications. It says very clearly in bold at the bottom of every edit page "If you don't want your writing to be edited and redistributed by others, do not submit it." Nohat 08:59, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

hungarian pronounciation of tea
tea is spelt tea, and pronounced tae-oh in hungarian. I don't know IPO. That's just from memory, I was in budapest about 3 years ago.

American Preparation
In this section:

''American restaurants are not familiar with proper tea preparation. Instead of pouring boiling water over tea leaves or a tea bag, waiters usually bring the customer a tea bag and a cup (or small pot) of hot water in which to dunk it. If the customer is lucky, the water has just been boiled, but often it has been sitting for a while and there is no way to know''.

"there is no way to know?" I generally stick my finger in the water. :-)

Yeah, that's what a lot of people do. "There is no way to know" is an kind of an exaggeration.

Tea Shop?
Could someone please tell me what the proper name for the tea version of a coffee shop is?

Too many external links
I think we are collecting too many external links in this article. Can anyone suggest a reasonable criteria for inclusion or exclusion? Nandesuka 18:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes - sit down, have a nice cup of tea and ruminate for a bit. Suddenly, a lightbulb will illuminate and the answer will be staring you in the face. Slurp. --84.64.95.182 15:02, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Can there really be too many external links? That's what makes the web so great is so many resources. Tea is also a very broad topic.

I agree...... It appears my links are considered SPAM by a user(s). I have no intentions of spamming WIKI. Although my site is a commercial site, it contains information. It was also picked up and cited by google answers so it must have some relevance. http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=566527 I placed this link in the "External Links" section and it has been removed twice. What makes this different than any of the other commercial sites that have links posted. I am really interested in contributing my knowledge to this section but don't want to get involved in a tit-for-tat game with other users that see this as spam. Any Insight as to why this is considered spam if listed in external Links. My thoughts would be to do away with external links if this is spam.

Thank you for your cooperation - - Anyones response is truly appreciated because I am new to this amazing project.


 * Wikipedia has a policy on external links - read External links.
 * Specificaly reasons why link to your site should not be included are


 * 1) In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose.
 * 2) Links that are added to promote a site, by the site operator or its affiliates.  See External link spamming.
 * 3) Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services.
 * Generally beeing a s shop, your site would have to include either unique highly relevant information, or some brillant detailed treatment. Neither is the case, in fact in many places even current Wikipedia article is more precise and accurate than your page.
 * As for Google answers - its a service where researchers (anyone) answer questions based on google search. Beeing cited in Google answer indicates you were high enough in some Google search, not much more. --Wikimol 11:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Milk in tea
I removed this "Milk was added as the working class had access only to earthenware cups before the British discovery of the manufacturing technique for porcelain; the hot tea poured directly into the cup could cause cracking." as it repeats (but less accurately as removing the element of doubt implied by 'said') something from the Additives text further down: "In the United Kingdom, adding the milk first is historically considered a lower-class method of preparing tea; the upper classes always add the milk last. The origin of this distinction is said to be that the rougher earthenware mugs of the working class would break if boiling-hot tea was added directly to them, whereas the fine glazed china cups of the upper class would not. It is now considered by most to be a personal preference.".

The new element is the reference to the introduction (rather than discovery) of porcelain manufacture to Britain, but I would suggest not adding this unless there is a scholarly reference for it. There is much mythology regarding the addition of milk to tea in Britain, and in a quick scan of the food history literature I have not uncovered a study of the topic based on primary sources. Roy Moxham's suggestion in Tea: Addiction, Exploitation and Empire that addition of milk relates to the adoption of the more astringent black tea in the 18th century seems convincing to me. As tea consumption did not become a mass pursuit until the 19th century (annual consumption in Britain in 1810: 12,000 tons; 1890: 89,000 tons), it looks as if addition of milk predates its large-scale consumption by the 'working class'. Mark Nesbitt 08:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

help
Perennial Tea Ceremony can someone help clean it up, I also would like to see the catagory tea ceremony worked on there are so many kinds of them I guess they should be arranged by tea/teaceremony/country/ any ideas here is another ceremony i put up Wu-Wo Tea Ceremony, both are from Taiwan. Also I want to make later some kind of entry for modern tea customs,,, any ideas........

--Sherdwen 06:07, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

US tea culture revisions
Since there is now an article on US tea culture, shouldn't the info in Tea which is duplicate be truncated?

LuiKhuntek 03:57, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

A few things;

1. The US tea preperations have been globalized. Nearly all countries have adopted to some extent iced tea, tea bags, sweet tea, and instant tea. 2. Tea, both hot and iced, in the US is served at most gas stations, all fast food joints, and most fine diners. 3. There is no specialized Tea ceremony in the US, except for tea parties held by the wealthy and in fancy hotels, and even then the only thing special is that tea is served. 4. Before the changes to the US section made yesterday the info in both articles was factually incorrect.

The only really noteworthy thing is that the US is capable of producing its own tea but as of 2006 only has one 127 acre plantation in SC and roughly 80 acres spread among 40 small "home growers" in Hawaii.

The other really noteworthy thing is the price of Tea in the US. Iced tea blends can be purchased in generic boxes of 100 teabags for $0.99 USD (A penny a bag) and generic presweetened instant tea can be purchased in jars that produce 36 quarts (34 liters) for $1.50 USD (That's $0.04 per liter). Fine tea by contrast costs about $3.00 per box of 20-25 bags in the US.

all i would like to know now is what is the average consumption of tea per person per day in Great Britt. like at this point in time not in the 19th century

Iranian drinking method
From the article: "Iranians traditionally drink tea by pouring it into the saucer and putting a lump of sugar in the mouth before drinking the tea. This is seen nowhere else in the world." Curiously, this is the way older Finnish people drink (or at least used to drink: I haven't seen this method in years, but it was common amongst older people when I was young) _coffee_. Anyone have any idea how two totally separate cultures have picked up a similar method of beverage drinking? And why tea for one, and coffee for the other? --GNiko 11:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested merge of Tea section to Tea Culture
Discuss and vote on this at the Tea Culture talk page

Requested moves in general
Requested merges are moves in fact, as "merged articles" are not more than bad stubs.

I agree now the article is a bit unballanced now and Tea culture section is too long, relative to rest of article.

I'm against the move of history section.
 * the section History of tea is in average too brief
 * especially its subsection Tea spreads to the world misses many important points and is shorter than it should be in "the ideal Tea article"
 * History of tea in China and Japan allready have specific articles and content of Tea is more or less succesfull attempt at summarization
 * creating of Tea culture would create three levels of details/summarization of the same topic (Tea, Tea history, Tea hisotry in specific countries). we should not start maintaining three different levels of the same text when we don't have decent text on any level of details...

IMO current size of the article is not that critical - few kb are used on reference, table and image markup etc. which contributes to bytecount but not to wordcount, important for readability.

What I would suggest
 * 1) Leave History where it is now and delete History of tea. Try improve summarization of China and Japan
 * 2) Write decent summarization of tea culture
 * 3) Than, move the Tea culture to separate article and put the summary in Tea

I don't think anythink should be moved until #2 is availiable & the coloured merge boxes don't improve the impression of readers --Wikimol 22:27, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The history of tea is more complete than this article. If you were to merge the history of tea with this article, it would add more pages. People go to the article to read about tea in general and not receive an indepth analysis on the history of tea.

Coca tea
Coca tea is made from leaves of Coca (Erythroxylum coca). Tea is made of leaves of Camellia sinensis. This article is about tea, not about every social drink drunk at the planet made by infusion, which would include not only Coca team, but also all herbal teas, Rooibos, Yerba mate, etc. --Wikimol 10:03, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Origins of tea plant
PLease cite the references for the tea plant being native to the himalayan foothills region. from what i can read, the tea plant is native to all of southeast asia/china. The international camellia botanical society states that the plant itself is actually native to china/japan. All tea plants are camellia sinensis with two varieties (sinensis itself and assamica). The bodhidharma legend for tea is not an indian legend. it is actually a legend added on the bodhidharma myth (no one knows his origins - central asia or india) when chan buddhism came to japan in the 10th century ad.Mano1 18:25, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * There was something I can remember reading about someone using a scientific method that seemed to determine that tea originated in either Yunnan or Sichuan. Can't remember where, I'll have a look, if its of any use. --Iateasquirrel 22:12, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The definitive answer is from Mandsfeld's World Database of Agricultural and Horticultural Crops, a database compiled by geneticists and botanists at Gatersleben, which I have found very reliable for plants with which I'm more familiar: "Wild distribution: Wild in SW China (sinensis group) and SE and S Asia from Assam, Myanmar to Vietnam and S China (assamica group).".


 * For confirmation I looked to PROSEA, Plant Resources of South-East Asia. Vol 16. Stimulants (2000). It says "The natural habitat of C. sinensis is the lower montane forest on mainland Asia from south-western China (Sichuan) to north-eastern India (Assam)."

Looking at the map, it would be fair to describe that as Himalayan foothills. As to where the sinensis group was domesticated, I have searched and not found any good genetic or archaeological evidence. Modst people say "southern China" and for the moment that's probably a safe bet (on historical grounds). Assamica is of course a 19th century domestication in NE India. Mark Nesbitt 15:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should go with the above cited sources: from south-west China for sinensis to north-wast India, Myanmar, Vietnam and south-China for assamica. I doubt that most people think of Vietnam or Sichuan when they hear "Himalayan foothills", so it's better to go with the precise descriptions. AxelBoldt 17:44, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, fine! Mark Nesbitt 20:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Dried leaves, boiled?
Is there space for a reference to Douglas Adams' Hitchhikers' guide to the universe? 62.6.139.11 08:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Why you want dried leaves, bioled? Still computing..." No, this should not get a reference. Hitchhiker's fan though I am, I think it is too remotely related to deserve a mention. We're already over the reccommended size...

Tea and the Fair Trade movement
This deserves a mention - presumably around the economics of the tea trade or the production system. Midgley 09:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It is important issue with so-and-so many people turning up ant the Edinburgh G8 March (including myself) last year, it is well worth adding -- Davidpk212 22:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Edits by 64.213.98.17 at 15:10, 16 March 2006
A lot of these seem dubious, and include the removal of the referenced production figures - can someone with knowledge of the points changed check it over, please? Unfortunately, it can't be reverted easily because of subsequent good edits. - MPF 11:23, 17 March 2006 (UTC) I have been working with some mentors on chinsese traditional arts and i am not the experienced in putting things into wikistyle, if anyone wants to help it would be appreciated..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wu-Wo_Tea_Ceremony http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incense_Lore i am also sherdwen, icetea icetea8.... and use other name this can be confirmed at http://teaarts.blogspot.com/ thanks --icetea 18:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

builder's tea
(note from a Brit - actually, "builder's tea" is just any strong, milky and sweet tea: normally a lot more than 2 spoons of sugar) I removed the above from the article, as the talk page is for comments on articles. If the poster (or someone else) wants to incorporate this into the article appropriately, feel free. yEvb0 19:16, 20 April 2006 (UTC)