Talk:Tea/Archive 3

Portugal
Portugal has a small production of some 30 tons per year of green and black tea. There is no reference to that in the article, furthermore the reference that portuguese didn't bring tea to europe is folowed by the reference that a portuguese princess introduced tea in the UK. Sotavento (talk) 05:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Removed Jan Huyghen van Linschoten
I removed this text from the article for discussion here:

"The next recorded reference to tea in India dates to 1598, when a Dutch traveler, Jan Huyghen van Linschoten, noted in a book that 'the Indians ate the leaves as a vegetable with garlic and oil and boiled the leaves to make a brew.'"

The blogs in question do indeed claim that van Linschoten says this, and I've seen the claim repeated throughout the internet. There's just one problem: I can't find the alleged statements anywhere in van Linschoten's work. Does anyone have a more reliable source for this claim? Nandesuka (talk) 14:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

please link to Robert Fortune- intrduced tea to India
Tea was smuggled into India in 1848 by the British botanist under the employ of the East India Company- Sir Robert Fortune (Scottish) Botanical Collector for the Royal Horticulture Society. In 1847-He disguised himself as a Manchurian court official- and travelled all the Yangtze under threat of decapitation for tea smuggling. He took tea plants from Drum Mountain Monastery- famed throughout China for its' fine tea.  http://www.plantexplorers.com/explorers/biographies/fortune/robert-fortune.htm 

also made into a documentary on Discovery Channel. ThanksStarstylers (talk) 11:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Was this because the Assam Tea wasn't as good? I read about this too and I wondered why it was necessary to introduce Chinese tea to India, bearing in mind that tea had already been discovered in Assam around 1823. It seems that in those early days, there was alot of uncertainty surrounding whether or not Assam tea would be a viable alternative to Chinese tea, or if indeed it was even tea at all. Assam tea has got bigger leaves and is easier to mass produce, but it is not such a delicacy. I also read that Chinese tea is still better for the high altitudes at Darjeeling. At some point in time around that period, samples of both Assam Tea and Chinese tea were experimentally cultivated at the Botanic Gardens in Calcutta. Is there any mention of the discovery of Assam tea in the main article? Here's a web link on the subject. David Tombe (talk) 13:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There is also a similar story, a few hundred years earlier, about a Dutchman who smuggled Chinese tea out of a secret Chinese tea garden along with a couple of Chinese men who knew how to cultivate it. That is how the Dutch got tea plantations in Java. That story may even be in the Encyclopaedia Britannica. I'm pretty sure that's where I read it. I often wondered why the British couldn't have got Chinese tea seeds from the Dutch East Indies. David Tombe (talk) 11:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

antioxidants
i would like to see the following on your page: a comparison between the antioxidant levels of white, black, and green teas of a few popular brands. also the caffiene levels of each, and i would like twig tea included in this list as well, also the variations of the teas: hojicha (roasted green tea), oolong tea, etc. i drink tea for health so that is my interest. thanks for your consideration! 24.119.89.87 (talk) 06:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Recommendations for Article
I've been reviewing the article, and I believe its too unwieldy. I feel that the article would be greatly enhanced if large sections would be pared down/eliminated from the main article and linked into separate articles. Its just too much specific information for the general article, and ruins its flow and readability. What needs to be worked on especially are the
 * Origin and History subsections
 * Preparation and types of tea sections
 * Packaging section

If there are no objections, I will start trimming the article to a more appropriate length. Zidel333 (talk) 06:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A very good idea. 21:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest starting with removing the original research and poor writing in this article, before. (In fact, I already did, in the opening paras.) The article shouldn't be split until this article uses more economical language, less peacock language, and less original research.
 * The problems with this sentence are straightforward:
 * "In ancient times, a rather gruesome legend dating back to the Tang Dynasty was widely spread."
 * This is essay language and original research. The whole sentence could be removed without harming the section "Tea and the Tang Dynasty".
 * The problems with this para are more complicated:
 * "The next step in processing is to stop the oxidation process at a predetermined stage by heating, which deactivates the enzymes responsible . With black tea this is done simultaneously with drying. Without careful moisture and temperature control during its manufacture and thereafter, fungi will grow on tea. This form of fungus causes real fermentation that will contaminate the tea with toxic and sometimes carcinogenic substances and off-flavors, rendering the tea unfit for consumption ."
 * Apart from the strikethroughs, the information about fungi as a whole seems suspect. I've never experienced a problem with tea growing fungi, nor have I ever heard of anyone else with this problem. I'm sure it happens, the question is, why elaborate at such length if it isn't a very common, widespread problem? Why mention black tea, but not green tea?
 * These kinds of problems are symptomatic of the entire article. There's too much information contributed by editors who have a limited perspective or knowledge, many of whom fall into the trap of believing that more elaborate, verbose language "sounds more educated".
 * I'd be happy to do a heavy copy edit (before potentially breaking the article up) but I'd like to be sure there's a strong community concensus about what improvements are uppermost. Piano non troppo (talk) 11:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation?
Tea can also mean an evening meal in most parts of Britain. Suggest disambiguation. 213.121.151.174 (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The two kinds of classification
This article might need to make it more clear that there are two ways of classifying tea types. One method is with reference to the seed, whereas the other method is with reference to the processing method. People often get these issues confused. All tea is either of the Chinese kind, the Cambodian kind, or the Assam kind. But the different flavours of tea are not based on this division. The different flavours are based on the processing methods and lead to black tea (Indian tea/fully fermented), Oolong Tea (Chinese Tea/semi-fermented), and Green Tea (Japanese Tea/unfermented). It is theoretically possible to have Oolong Tea made from either Chinese tea leaves or Assam tea leaves and only an expert would be able to distinguish between the taste. Darjeeling tea comes from India but it mainly uses Chinese tea seeds, even since the discovery of Assam tea. Cambodian tea is never cultivated. David Tombe (talk) 12:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Negative effects on human health
One of non-English Wikipedia articles on tea states that aluminium and fluorine in tea may cause cancer. It also says that coffeine in tea dries the skin and makes it look older if consumed often. Could anyone competent refer to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.131.137.50 (talk) 17:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't Iran be added to the map of tea producing countries?
Seeing as it produces more tea than many other countries on that map, according to the figures on the article. Xullius (talk) 02:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

the chemical name for tea
i am curious to learn the chemical formular for tea, the chemical name too, water is aqua H2O the chemical; name is Di-Hydrogen oxide therefore whats the name of tea in the chemical name for tea, without milk, with milk, and one with one sugar three things all seperate..

anyone able to help? Tgwoman (talk) 18:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe a cup of black coffee is said to contain 15,000 different chemical compounds, & I'm sure tea is not far behind. Johnbod (talk) 12:57, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Loss of loose tea leaves - now just powder
It used to, and may still, be said that the quality of tea used in teabags was inferior to that of loose tea. Teabag tea was powdery, loose tea was real tea-leaves. But as someonme switching to lose tea from bags, I have noticed that loose tea is now the same powdery stuff as you get in teabags. You could not tell any fortunes with this powdery tea. I expect it is because the demand for bags is far greater than that of loose: hence only the bag stuff is made, and now sold loose as well. For example: Sainsburys China loose tea - leaf! Twinnings Assam loose tea - powder! Tesco own brand - powder! Any external sources about this decline in the quality of tea? In my recent experience, the difference in quality of bag and loose is like the difference between a tin whistle and an orchestra in terms of taste. 78.151.153.184 (talk) 22:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Did Alaska gain independence from the United states? Tea producing countries map
Alaska is a portion of the USA, since the USA is a tea producing country the whole USA should be on the map, or the map should be retitled. --Opcnup (talk) 00:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, sure - and Hawaii, where it might actually be possible to produce tea. Johnbod (talk) 18:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

United Kingdom
'Especially in Yorkshire'...unsubtantiated claim. Citation needed tag has been correctly added but I suggest that if there is no evidence pronto then this claim be promptly removed. As a Brit, I can say that when I have lived in Suffolk, Somerset and Berkshire tea is as popular as when I have visited London, Yorkshire and Devon, I know of no one place where its popularity is significant within the U.K. which does, as the article rightly claims, see tea as a kind of national drink.

Also, a question - is it a UK drink or an England drink? Don't know how big it is in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, is it seen as English or British?

a_boardley (talk) 18:10, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It was traditionally just as big in all parts of the UK and Ireland (including the south), I'd say. Nowadays it is tending to be overtaken by coffee, probably spreading out from London. Johnbod (talk) 18:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

A few suggestions
I've just gone through and begun to copy-edit the article, and I've noticed a few things I can't fix myself at the moment. I think the article could be improved by the addition/alteration of the following. I'll add to this as I continue editing. Merpin (talk) 07:36, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In the processing section, a description of all those processes! What's bruising, for example? How is yellow tea allowed to yellow?
 * At least one example of each sort of tea - green, yellow, black, etc.
 * Under creation myths--explain tea's historical significance as a status symbol.
 * This isn't really necessary, but I'd love a picture of a Brown Betty teapot somewhere. Come to think of it, there ought to be a Brown Betty (teapot) article. Hmm. Maybe tomorrow.

tooeiviun 8 8 vwyc uy8f 7guv urey rv  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.91.104 (talk) 16:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Milk order and Social Class
''In Britain and some Commonwealth countries, the order in which the milk and the tea enter the cup is often considered an indicator of social class. Persons of working class background are supposedly more likely to add the milk first and pour the tea in afterwards, whereas persons of middle and upper class backgrounds are more likely to pour the tea in first and then add milk. Many in Britain believe the former to be a continuing practice from a time when porcelain (the only ceramic which could withstand boiling water) was only within the purchasing range of the rich - the less wealthy had access only to poor quality earthenware, which would crack unless milk was added first in order to lower the temperature of the tea as it was poured in.''

This has been removed as unverifiable but it's common knowledge where I come from (Australia). Can we try to find references or phrase it in a way that is reliably verifiable? Douglas Adams alludes to the well-know fact here. George Orwell also mentions the debate without making it about class Nick (talk) 17:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But it is the wrong way round - most earthenware can manifestly withstand near-boiling water without the slightest problem, but thin early Western porcelain, or pretend-porcelain, before they got the manufacturing techniques right by about 1800, might crack. The influence of middle-class nannies (MIF - milk in first) has also been brought into the debate, but one would like to see some pre-20th century sources on the matter. Whether it is common knowledge or a common myth I'm not too sure. Johnbod (talk) 17:22, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, only the first bit is common-knowledge. You're right that the explanation above is incorrect. The most common reason given is that working- and lower-middle-class housewives knew that the tea would stain less if the milk was put in first. But the rich can afford to replace stained china (or at least have their servants wash up) so the upper- and upper-middle-classes were free to put the tea in first. Can't figure why they'd always choose to, except for Orwell's reasoning that it's easier to measure the milk that way. Nick (talk) 21:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * A couple of points. Firstly, whilst the order may be been considered an indicator at some point in the past, the same isn't true today.  Nobody really takes such nonsense seriously any more.  Secondly, I've heard various different explanations as to how this came about - many of them contradictory.  Unless someone can dig up some actual proof, this is all just speculation.  Whilst it can be fun to argue about these things, don't make the mistake of thinking that you're "right".  Just accept it as one of those strange little foibles of British cultural history.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.114.192 (talk) 23:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

In literature
Is it worth mentioning Orwell's "A nice cup of tea"?

Addison the poet laurate also wrote on tea.

Don't know quite how to incorporate this. SimonTrew (talk) 21:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)