Talk:Team Fortress 2/Archive 1

New trailer and HL2 Episode 2
Gamespot.com has released a new demo for HL2: Black Box (Episode 2) that features a TF2 demo on it: It definately seems like animation from Pixar's The Incredibles, by the way. Rage italic 14:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Art Style
Let's at least make a note that it is SIMILAR to pixar art style, namely the style shown in the Incredibles.

(they even have a moo sound (as in all the Worms games) in their trailer - it doesn't get more obvious than that!)
 * Team Fortress 2's character and overall game setup bears an uncanny resemblance to the atmosphere of the Worms games series - especially that of Worms 2-4. I wouldn't be surprised if the people working on TF2 once worked for Team17 or, at the least, are very fond of the Worms games.


 * As far as Pixar is concerned, reading through the various interviews today you can find Robin Walker directly saying it's Pixar like, and in another instance say Toy Story. Various previews also mention it.  It's used as a way to describe what it ended up looking like, but Walker has always stated that more the old spy movies and James Bond as the inspiration that got them to that point, not looking at animated films.  So in the end mentioning it is not very useful information and has nothing to do with how they got that look.Olivier Beaton 05:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed you can just tell by the music in the trailer + the art direction - looks very much like a 60/70s spy flick. If you were to compare it with anything I think there was a game called Evil Genius which went for a similar art direction and that is meant to be a spoof on James Bond style spy films of the 60s and 70s as well. --Rambutaan 23:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're in the beta (and when the game is released), there's a section in the commentary (Yes really commentary! The feature was introduced in Half Life 2:Episode 1 and will be in all 3 Orange Box games) states they're following the art style of a certain 40's technical illustrator. The music and primary weapons have a heavy 60's influence and designed to look home-made or modified because they clearly function differently to real life weapons (there are some obvious exceptions such as the Spy's balisong and pistol, the scout's baseball bat etc.) while the secondary weapons are based on the concept of a musical instrument. The models and textures are stylized for game reading purposes: easily recognisable sillouetes, lighter colours to draw the eye to the torso and head where the players aim. The whole model is shaded to reflect the illustrative art style NOT THE PIXAR STYLE. The difference is pixar go with very realistic world lighting and very flat, cartoon like colours and characters. In TF2, the world has a very flat colour scheme (to stop it from distracting players) while the player models are shaded to have a very strong difference between light and shadow. They are also rim lit to "highlight" the characters against the background which makes them easier to spot in game as well as imitating the illustrative style. Where TF2 and Pixar are similar in their approach is they use very stylized, rounded models and cartoon like animations. With regards to the "moo sound", cows have a very long history of being in games. There are cows in Valve's Day of Defeat: Source, which also takes a stylized approach to the character models (hey, there's even a bazooka in it!) I think the link to the Worms series is at best tenuous. With regards to 60's themed spy games, I'd compare it to Monolith's No One Lives Forever series since it is also an FPS. If people are interested, I can rip the commentary for transcription. --78.146.144.11 23:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Small revision
Did a couple small wording changes to eliminate some POV in the article --Chris Law Also, I closed a italicized bracket that was spilling over into text.
 * OK, but you don't need to tell everyone. ;-) Anyone interested can already see what's going on through the History tab or their watchlist. --Tom Edwards 21:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Double standard
How come this article has got ALOT less mentions of its long development time than the Duke Nukem Forever article ? Why the double standard ?
 * Because nobody has written it. You can add something if you like, so long as it's meaningful and objective. --Tom Edwards 18:19, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It did until they actually came out of the media blackout. Once Duke does the same and makes any indication as to be ready for launch, then we'll talk.  Also this TF2 looks very much like a completely different game then brotherhood, so in essence yes, that game is vapourware, this is just a new game under the same tf2 flag.  But the real title wins in a fight.  Olivier Beaton 05:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Information Leaks
Half life2 source code was never released. It was leaked at one point, but never released.
 * It is a part of the Source SDK. It's used to create all mods. --Tom Edwards 09:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The Source SDK does not contain the full engine source, which was leaked but never released. --AJanuary 18:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It does contain the HL2 source code however. --Tom Edwards 09:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Requires Clean Up
Seeing as Valve has avnnounced that TF:2 is coming out with Half Life 2: Episode 2, this article requires a major overhaul. References to it currently in vaporware status need to be removed and the like. the cheat 03:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * They should categorically NOT be removed. The History heading should be preserved and the current contents of the article merged into as is appropriate, however. --Tom Edwards 09:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've updated the introduction, but theres a load of other tense changes and updates required thoughout the rest. EAi 20:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed the "Media: Unknown physical media and Steam" in the 'box' to "Media: Steam, DVD and Blu-ray", assuming it comes on the same disk as HL2:Episode2 for all platforms, it cannot be released on CD, so it is a safe assumption that these are the correct types of media. EAi 20:42, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm disappointed
To quote the discussion edit page: This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. Olivier Beaton 19:34, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Pixar
Valve have a guy from Pixar working on TF2 - thus the cool character models. However, that fact is useless without a verifiable, public source. Anyone seen one? --Tom Edwards 09:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've not seen this written anywhere. I've heard it said to be pixar-esque, nothing more. EAi 19:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I added the pixar reference because the gamespot article said it, it's not my idea. The article was also cited, so I think we're OK LilDice 21:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh woops you meant you were looking for a source that says valve has a guy from pixar doing modeling, haven't seen that yet, but I expect we will soon enough. LilDice 21:12, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Haven't seen anything about Pixar working with Valve. The article only said it will have a Pixar-esque look to it. But like LilDice said, we should get some more info soon. I hear next week (Ok, now this week since it's Sunday) Valve will release some. --Gamer007 23:17, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Yup, more info this week. "New videos from Episode Two, Portal, and Team Fortress 2 will be released next week." - From the Steam News posted on July 14. --Gamer007 23:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I know they have a guy poached from Weta Digital working on it. Didn't know about a former Pixar employee. - Hahnch e n 00:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Cel Shading
I originally mentioned the blurb about cel-shading and TF2 maybe using it. Really that was my fault, since I didn't read that anywhere it would be considered original research. I'm thinking about just taking that sentence out until we know one way or another....thoughts? LilDice 17:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Is it actually cel shaded? Someone put TF2 in the Cel-shaded wiki. I don't think it's cel-shaded, but that's just me. --Gamer007 02:55, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't think so, I changed the wording to say it's using a new lighting technique developed in-house at valve which was from the IGN article that is cited I believe. I'm sure there will be some press about the graphics once we get closer to release time, so I would probably remove TF2 from the cel-shaded animation page until we know for sure and can cite a source. LilDice 16:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It appears TF2 was originally meant to appear cel shaded. If you watch the 2nd TF2 trailer you'll notice that the muzzle flash from the Heavy's minigun (Sasha) and the Pyro's flames appear cel shaded. In the current beta, this is no longer the case. Also the shaders that give the models their distinctive lighting are conspicuously missing from the 2nd trailer. Either Valve had a change in art direction or the cell shaded look was a placeholder of sorts. --78.146.144.11 23:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Trailer!
Now there is a trailer! http://www.openxbox360.com/modules.php?name=Download&F=videos/tf2_teaser.avi&M=47fef7770904f95e26c7413674cd3786&G=Team%20Fortress%202 --Forcen 17:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * VALVe does like taking forever to put it on their media section of Steam. =/ What's the point of it if you can get it out in the open anyway? --Gamer007 20:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It has better resolution. ;)

Leipzig Games Convention 2006
There is a video on TF2 from GC. Is it allowed to be posted here?
 * here is the link to the vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuhj9WsDzk LilDice 12:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Can't someone do a short description of what we've seen about each character (like in the TFC article)? We've seen some new impressive stuff there, so I think it deserves it.

The sequel of...
Okay, it seems many editors are divided on whether Team Fortress 2 is the sequel to the Team Fortress mod for Quake or Team Fortress Classic by Valve.

Should they BOTH get a mention in the first sentence? I think the engine change deserves a mention. Pixelface 23:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you read the history section, TFC was only a quick port in lieu of TF2. There isn't an informed argument for it being a sequel to TFC, it's just borne out of people not realising TF existed pre-Valve. --Tom Edwards 10:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a pretty easy argument to settle, given TF2 was made, military theme and all, on Quake 2 as a sequel to Quake 1 TF. It only moved to 'a new engine' when the company the tf guys set up was bought by valve.  Hence tf2 became a valve game.  Tom is right, TFC was just a quick port of quake1tf to get their feet wet in goldsource. Olivier Beaton 05:17, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * TFC is different from (Q)TF. It improved many elements (ex., netcode, graphics, maps) and introduced new gameplay elements (both in the original TFC and in TFC 1.5). Considering all models, maps and most of the code are different, I'd say it is definitely more than a "quick port". The current version of TF2 does not have a "military theme"; it's a very different game from the one originally announced by Valve. The game currently known as TF2 is far closer to TFC. RMN 18:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * If you look at the recently released whitepaper (http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2007/NPAR07_IllustrativeRenderingInTeamFortress2.pdf) Valve clearly see it as a sequal to TFC. --AJanuary 21:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Release Date
Regarding the latest edit (01:01, 8 February 2007 Gamer007) [] (in the info box under release) I can't say as though the source is reliable. According to the article cited they are relying on Electronic Arts (EA) for their info. EA doesn't distribute or have anything to do with TF2. Why are they speaking on someone else's behalf?

I could be entirely off base and that's why I did not revert the edit. I will be watching this space for any information that can be gleaned from the masses that watch this page and more than likely know more than I do. --JohnCub 02:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Olivier's changes
I just rolled in all the gameinformer preview/interview/history data, and the new ign interview data as well. I've added tons of citations for stuff already there, some of it got unyieldly so I broke out classes and maps into headers (they now show up in the table of contents). I cleaned up all the dates for references since it wasn't up to the standard and different styles were used everywhere. Look at the history before me to see what I did, please consider how much data/time you are obliterating on reverts to before this edit: Olivier Beaton 22:56, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I just updated with the ign hands-on pages 1 and 2 information with cites. I can't be bothered to do the map descriptions (Well is described on page 3!) right now though...    New info mainly in gameplay, engineer, demoman, medic, sniper and a tiny bit about soldierOlivier Beaton 23:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Speculation presented as fact
On April 11, 2007, it was announced that the PC and Xbox 360 versions would support crossplatform online play[12].

Kotaku did not conduct the interview (IGN did), and even kotaku didn't say that there would definitely be cross-platform play "Xbox 360 owners may very well be invited, as Xbox 360 to PC play is already working. Will Microsoft make it possible when Half-Life 2 Orange Box ships? I dunno. Apparently, nor does Valve." This is what is cited as supporting the statement, this site then links to the following two things...

" The Xbox 360 version's network code is apparently so far along that PC and Xbox 360s were actually playing together online during a LAN session. Whether or not this function will be supported when the Orange and Black Boxes release around September remains to be seen, but Valve is ready either way." -IGN article http://pc.ign.com/articles/779/779677p1.html

The other article that it links to is a translation, the translation says, "It would be technically feasible to let owners of a PC, XBOX 360 and PS3 play against each other. Whether this feature makes it into the final game is still uncertain and depends on Sony and Microsoft." -translation of the German site http://www.halflife2.net/forums/showpost.php?p=2209757&postcount=16 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iliketofrolic666 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

Concept Art
I found a site with what appears to be an image of the soldier and alien described from the source leak. Can anyone confirm that this is authentic, and should this be added to the article? Hewinsj 03:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Conc jumping?
The article says that conc jumps were removed, but the source it cites doesn't say that conc jumping was removed, and in a trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMgTUWfP10k&NR=1) shows plenty of conc jumping at the end. Should that line be removed? 70.240.252.98 23:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The trailer has rocket jumping, there are multiple interviews where they state no conc jumping. Medic class isn't even equipped with a conc. Lil' Dice (yeah, I said it!) - talk 00:29, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Soldiers can definately rocket jump, and they cannot make other people rocket jump, just themselves. IgWannA 15:45, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As a minor note, the conc jumping article was deleted from Wikipedia. I tried to save it in the afd process but as an unregistered user, my arguments were simply not addressed and it was deleted because I pointed out it couldn't really be merged. --78.146.144.11 01:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Classes Section
I noticed that Pkaulf made an edit on May 17th citing "game guide material, doesn't belong on the article" that removed the whole classes section and all individual class information. The article now to me seems to tell me almost nothing about the game, it doesn't even tell me what the classes are, or how say, the spy works. How fluffy is this supposed to be? Seems like a huge change to the article without discussion. I also noticed another edit by Uber that cited "deleted unreferenced material" and yet what he removed was a paragraph full of cited stuff then he shot down Tom Edwards for reverting. The quality of this article is going downhill fast. Olivier Beaton 17:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Take a look again. I deleted content that was speculative and referenced to a Steam forum post that was no longer working. The stuff deleted by Pkaulf was listy material that gave very little insight into the game, which made the article look horrible. If anything, this article is going uphill. ~ UBeR 18:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Take another look: http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/791/791200p1.html. RESTORE IT. JAF1970 03:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Restore the Class Section
IGN has a detailed preview of each class now. There's nothing speculative - not even the stun by the Scout with the bat. JAF1970 03:43, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I never said class stuff was speculative, I said the stuff I deleted was. At any rate, the information at IGN is mostly basic what the classes do, which I guess would be fine, as long as you don't make into sprawling lists like the last class section (and as long as it isn't made to be a game guide. See WP:NOT). ~ UBeR 04:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, you'd better wipe the class sections for other games (ie Mass Effect). I'm very close to just writing a new class section for here. JAF1970 13:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There's a reason that article looks horrible and this one doesn't. ~ UBeR 18:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Classes should at least List the 9 classes for now, until a better one is built. ~ Anonymous

Keep Team Fortress 2 classes article
Everyone who wants the Team Fortress 2 classes article better help it out. They want to eviscerate it as well. JAF1970 00:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, who deleted the Classes article? All of that information was cited and informative. 2stepMW 18:56, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Sequel to TFC / TFQW
A quote from the article:

Originally planned as a free mod for Quake II, development on Team Fortress 2 switched to the GoldSrc/Half-Life engine in 1998 after the development team (Team Fortress Software, consisting of Robin Walker and John Cook) were first contracted and finally outright employed by Valve Corporation, (formally Valve Software). At the point of Team Fortress Software's acquisition production moved up a notch and the game was promoted to a standalone, retail product; to tide fans over (since, as well as time issues, much of the Team Fortress player base had purchased Half-Life solely in anticipation of the free release of Team Fortress 2), work began on a simple port of the game which was released in 1999 as the free Team Fortress Classic (TFC).

TF2 began development before TFC, with the latter made to act as a port of the original until they could finish the former.

However, it's obvious now that the misconception is a popular one. Perhaps the article should mention both TFQW and TFC? --Tom Edwards 07:47, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That refers to the "TF2" game originally announced by Valve, which was completely abandoned. The game now being released as TF2 is completely different, does not share the military theme, does not include the commander mode or the realistic gameplay; it is much closer to TFC. RMN 18:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * QWTF didn't have any of those things either. --Tom Edwards 23:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Spam Links
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Spam_blacklist#totaltf2.com is one example, but I am expecting other spam links to start showing up as every k3wL website will "deserve" to be linked. I am hoping that it will be discussed here when needed, unlike the above who will not answer talk pages or give a summary justification. It is up for ban as the link will indicate. Pharmboy 01:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I actually think it's pretty interesting that the only "legitimate" external link that you think is necessary is a website that hasn't been updated with the new TF2 content. It still has links to videos from probably 6 years ago that no longer work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vilepickle (talk • contribs).

Please sign your comments. The old TF2 site is kept for reasons given in the summary, which is what the summary is for. There is going to be at least 100 "fan websites" from clans and such. It is pretty difficult to say that some new sites can be listed and some can't. The key to being an external link is to be considered a reliable source, ie: wp:rs material, just like any source. This is more or less the same criteria for any article on wikipedia. Your brand new site might be swell some day, but it is the only edit you have ever made, and I have visited your site last week. You are about the only person who has even added any messages in the forum. Wikipedia is NOT the place to advertise and grow your website, per wp:spam. If you take the time to read the policies here, we wouldn't be discussing this here. Pharmboy 21:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Influences of 20th century commercial illustrations
I've added the influences of 20th century commercial illustrations to the graphics article. The reference is a video that can be found in a variety of places. However, I cannot as of yet find an official (i.e. Valve) host and am unsure what to link to as the reference. The title of the video is "Illustrative Rendering in Team Fortress 2" --AJanuary 09:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This seems to have been fixed. --AJanuary 21:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedial Correctness
I would just like to complain about the box shot... not really. Looks good. BURNyA 19:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)