Talk:Team Fortress 2/Archive 2

Differences between versions of Team Fortress
I suggest adding a new section on the differences between TF2 and TFC. There are some bits strewn around the article about TF2 using "metal" and not "bags", and TF2 having no armour, etc. I think it might be helpful to make a short section listing the main differences between TF2 and TFC, if only useful for old TFC players. On the other hand, everyone who played TFC will most definately play this game unless they are brain dead, so they will already find all these differences out ;) Suggestions? IgWannA 00:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Classes
Added bulleted class information as it was badly needing expanding. I think it's best not going into too much detail because then it becomes a game guide and not a description of the game's features. Perhaps we should delete the other discussion on classes further below as it's pretty much sorted now, and should all be kept under the same heading (this one). IgWannA 15:43, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone deleted all the detailed class information I laboured over last night, just because it doesn't cite references. Well I have the beta, which is pretty much the final version, and all that I wrote can be verified. Citations, if you so desperately require them, will come in the next few days as the reviews start coming in. This is no reason to delete all that original text, it is all factual.

There are a few previews around the net if someone would be so kind as to stick references in to shut this guy up. He has no business deleting text when all that is needed is a citation warning or something on the discussion page. IgWannA 22:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Class citations added IgWannA 23:05, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this true about the scout's shotgun being replaced with a nailgun? IgWannA 01:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a discussion board IgWannA but no, there are no nailguns in TF2. The closest thing would be the medic's syringe gun. Last night I did a rather large update to the classes section which basically corrects some factual accuracies and standardized the format to (appearance)(accent)(loadout). Bizarely, half of the enteries were reverted back to the old version. I will be changing it back. If you have a good reason, please discuss it on this page before starting a revert war. Hmmm. Looks like I misread. Strike that.--84.12.64.112 11:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The first previews showed the Scout with a SMG (which ended up becoming the sniper's secondary), and later he had a nailgun before the final "scattergun" weapon. Also the Spy originally carried TFC's tranquilizer instead of the revolver.169.226.75.228 20:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I remember reading this and I feel it's simply not necessary to have such a detailed list of all the characters, at least not in this article. It even includes pictures of all classes, which is kind of... bloated. Jetro 16:24, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Box art for the wrong page.
This game is TF2 and sure it comes with orange box, it doesn't mean the central focus should be the orange box. I say return it to the group mugshot as it best describes the game. Not TF2 with two other games with it which you can buy in a bundle with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cowfish13 (talk • contribs) 02:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Maybe the orange box can go somewhere else in the article. I think the main shot should be TF2-centric. Bill Lava 03:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Orange box art can still be useful somewhere, but the main picture should be a group shot of the classes. Rekija 02:49, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I recently uploaded a group picture of TF2, but it was deleted to make way for the box art. this is rediculous, as it is up to date with meet the engineer (the latest example of a group photo) and i respected all copyright information, quoting my source.

Would i be able to re-upload any time soon, please? Stuffed Lizard 13:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC) Stuffed Fox

In depth with the classes
I was wondering whether we could go more indepth about the classess, I remember that one of the gameing sites (I think it was Ign) hade an in-depth look into them, antoher good adition would be comparing the old class pictures with the new, as done on the TFC page between the old TF models And the TFC ones. heres the link: http://pc.ign.com/articles/791/791434p1.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djtjj (talk • contribs) 02:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone (not sure who, Bitchzombies I think) posted a bit of very nice, if quite unencyclopedic, info earlier. I you want to read it, I stuck it on my user page for Ess'es and Gee's. BURNyA 23:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * yes it was me. I knew it was pretty rough and probably an amateur job but I didn't know where to get input on it. So i posted it in hope of someone making it "decent" over time.--Bitchzombies 02:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * while I'm on this topic, how come the classes for Team fortress classic is considered encyclopedic? I understand the POV and tone are good but why is it still there if we aren't supposed to be using "Game Guide" material?--Bitchzombies 02:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Who said they were? --Golbez 03:35, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Final release changes
I removed the parenthetical sentences at the end of the Scout and Demoman descriptions as they were unverifiable. Specific citations from reliable sources need to be provided to confirm these changes. Nufy8 03:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Beta Release
Is the time of the beta release at all necessary, seems a bit much info to me Herman238 15:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

imo it is significant since it is an open beta, you buy the orange box today, you get TFC2 today. From the perspective of the random consumer it has been released as of the beta. (In fact, I think there is a case for putting september 17th in the top-right information box thingy - there really isn't anything very beta about TFC2 today) Eldaec 10:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Unit Pictures
Can we get pictures of TF2's units without the moronic names? I'm sure someone must be very happy to showcase these names to their friends but do we really need to display them on Wikipedia?Scott 110 05:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * i have uploaded some previously, but they were removed. you can see them on BURNyA's page. I'll bring them back pending approval. Don't think the pics will last that long though. whoever uploaded them didn't provide the proper rational.--Bitchzombies 19:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The class selection screen would be a perfect place to get pictures if they're really needed. The current ones are stinking of ePeen and yours are kinda blurry Bitchzombies. --132.170.125.87 20:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I got shots of the class selection screen, though I'm not too wiki-worthy. If the need-be, I can crop them out. I'm gonna shrink'em down by 50%(I don't have antialiasing on, I think). Is there some sort of maximum pixel size that I need to look out for? --72.220.104.155 23:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to get the SDK working with TF2's files, but it's bieng a complete bitch atm. i'll let you guys know if i get any further, but yeh in the mean time your best bet might be the classes selection screen. AND DON'T FORGET THE FREAKIN' COPYRITGH THIS TIME! seriously... PNG if possible, plz. If i can't get it working, i'll help you out in getting those menu pics lookin' nice :3 Stuffed Lizard 09:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)Stuffed Fox

Spy Section
Someone needs to completely redo the spy sections, because it's all wrong. For example, the spy doesn't turn near invisible, he turns COMPLETELY invisible. You just appear slightly visible to your team. 68.40.62.32 21:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed this too after I wrote the class section. He still has the predator effect for a couple of seconds after cloaking however, and when he's shot. Anyway I'll fix it. IgWannA 22:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The Predator crackles with lightning when cloaking/uncloaking and features heavy distortion, even when motionless. In TF2 there's a very subtle matt tranclucent effect in the team's colour. I'd rather not have people compare that to the kalidoscope like Predator. Its not like he invented cloaking --78.146.144.11 23:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

also, you can disguise as a friendly class if you press the UP ARROW key on the disguise menu , it will change the color of the team your disguising as. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.44.1.200 (talk) 11:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Its bound to the minus key by default on the PC. No idea what the 360 binding is. --89.243.97.76 09:34, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just wondering, i've also noticed that, does anyone have any idea for making it useful? 91.92.178.164 11:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think its meant to aid infiltration: less suspicious than walking in undisguised or coming from a suspicious angle disguised as an enemy (ie out of the friendly spawn area). I don't think any elaboration on that in the article is necessary though, I'm just speculating. -- Sabre 11:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, i didn't mean to put it in the article - it's just that i've always found it curious and was wondering if someone more experienced than me could share some way of making it useful. 91.92.178.164 16:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I have: no one will expect that enemy medic that ran behind them to instantly kill them. It can also be used as a distraction tool —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.12.186.40 (talk) 01:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I am almost sure that enemies can't see you disguise when cloaked, since I've done that a lot and no-one shot me. So why does it say in article that even when cloaked they will be visible when disguising? Pedroshin 20:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Game Guide
This is really starting to look like a game guide rather than an encyclopedia entry. I don't think your average encyclopedia user would care who has what hit points or even know what "hit points" are. BURNyA 16:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I dissagree, I came here for that very info. It helps demonstrate in a reasonable objective way the exact differences. ~User:Mylakovich —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.24.9.213 (talk) 18:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Sniper
Is he truly Australian? I thought, with his hat, he was more a Wild-West type character, from rural Western America. Toby Douglass 20:10, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's most definitely an Aussie, mate. The hat is a classic Akubra, he looks fairly Austrailian, but most tellingly of all are his mannerisms, and his accent. Everything has an Australian bend to it, and he'll say such lines as "God save the queen" (sounding like Gawd with the accent). You'd never find Clint Eastwood saying that.


 * None of this is worthy of being mentioned in the article, but the fact that he's an Aussie is. -Skorpus McGee 12:33, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Skorpus - I've not played yet, so I didn't know this stuff. Toby Douglass 08:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we can settle for its an American trying to sound Australian, considering no one in Australian would say god save the queen unless they were over 60. also the acubra is a military Slouch Hat as opposed to a common "cattlemen" style hat. --Hypo Mix 11:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * actually since robin walker/john cook and Team Fortress Software were all australian, I think they'd likely have gotten an authentic voice actor, of course you obviously knwo better than us. so let's settle for your version of reality! :) 142.106.63.213 17:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the original TF team were all Australian, right? So they *should* have gotten a genuine Aussie voice. I don't know much (anything) about Australian history, but the dates seen in-game are all about 40 years old (1965, 68, etc), which could explain him saying god save the queen because he would be over 60 today. Not like I'm trying to read too much into this :) 169.226.75.228 20:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Hence the qualifier "i think". i still think the accent sounds forced... not that this is terribly important--Hypo Mix 05:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC).


 * The accent's terrible - it's not even remotely Australian. It sounds like an American trying to fake an English accent.121.223.20.238 00:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks mate, still no worries eh? --Hypo Mix 11:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The Sniper is 100% Australian. Listening to the Taunt Files, the Sniper taunt (Sniper_Taunts3) has him saying "I'm a Dinken Aussie, Not a Bloody Cartoon.".--Aaron Twist 13:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Class videos?
Shouldn't there be a mention of the class videos? According to Gabe Newell, there will be one for each of the nine classes, making it a pretty significant part of the presentation. HertzaHaeon 15:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Engineer's Melee weapon.
The Engineer's melee weapon is NOT a spanner. It is either a pipe wrench or a monkey wrench. Since "The term "monkey wrench" is also used colloquially (and inaccurately) to refer to the pipe wrench."; I have changed that part to say "Pipe wrench". Someone changed it from "Monkey wrench" to "spanner" before. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nophysicalbody (talk • contribs) 04:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, the engineer's weapon in TF2 is a proper monkey wrench, not a pipe wrench. In fact, it looks almost exactly like the image of a monkey wrench from that article.  Take a look at the shape of the head and the placement of the adjusting mechanism.  The original Team Fortress engineer's melee weapon was referred to as a "spanner" - probably because the developers were from Australia.  The term "spanner" is used instead of "wrench" in some countries outside of the US.  That's where the confusion comes from on that issue.--76.88.38.191 03:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Scout's accent
The section about the Scout said he has a Brooklyn accent. I edited this to say that he has a slight Boston accent. I think his character is meant to be portrayed as a guy from the Boston area, as it's suggested he's into baseball (his hat, and his taunt that says "Let's play ball", as well as his use of the term "wicked"... and an overall slight Mass. accent. Agreed? 75.36.139.14 19:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed.138.163.0.41 21:42, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Either way, original research, and dare I say, horribly superfluous. No one cares what his accent is. --Golbez 00:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think trying to determine exactly where his accent comes from would fall under original research so I left it simply as "eastern american" --89.243.104.151 17:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I care about the accent. I enjoy the characterizations given to the classes and I like to know what they're supposed to be and where they're supposed to be from.  Toby Douglass 14:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * considering all classes are based on stereotypes I think its important to define the characters accents and mannerisms. (as a non-american i would have said his accent was a general NYC) --Hypo Mix 10:15, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Class: Pyro - Updated with Minor Revisions
The section regarding the Pyro has been updated with very minor updates including: Increased damage from the flamethrower by the recent Steam update now makes the weapon the second most powerful close-range weapon in the game [Spy's knife being second]. With the damage being increased by the flamethrower, obviously that speeds the time it takes to kill an opponent, which in the original paragraph's state, it seemed to indicate that the weapon was a "progressively slow damaging" weapon, which is no longer the case.--LectR 19:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"To extinguish the flames (..) receive healing from a medic or engineer's dispenser" - really? As i can see in game - receiving health from medic/dispenser won't extinguish flames. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.57.53.241 (talk) 19:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it does. Check again. 91.92.178.164 09:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It does put out the flames, it just takes about a second to work. Want to try it out in-game? I'll be the pyro, you can be the victim-- uh, I mean "willing test participant" 169.226.75.228 20:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

TF2 Utilizes a Specific Game Engine
I wish I found the website that I had seen this on, and I'm thinking it was SteamPowered.com, but had anyone else heard that TF2 utilizes what Valve is calling the "Orange Box Engine," that is platforming all the new Orange Box games because the Source engine, alone, wasn't capable of doing the physics of Portal. I don't want to edit the article yet because I may be completely delusional, but I'm fairly certain that they aren't calling it the Source engine for games of the Orange Box. Anyone else have any idea?--64.9.40.33 13:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

TF2 does use the Source engine(hence "powered by Source" in the startup videos). However, it is a majorly upgraded version of the engine, to facilitate new effects and capabilities. This isn't the first time this has happened, they did this before with Episode I, and Day of Defeat: Source, primarily to facilitate HDR. It's still the Source engine, its just upgraded. They may well internally refer to it colloquially as the "Orange Box engine" as currently only the Orange box games use this version of the engine, which facilitates new particle effects and physics capabilities. Officially though, it's still the Source engine. Think of it this (generalised) way:
 * Source v1: Half-Life 2, Counter-Strike: Source, Half-Life 2: Deathmatch, Half-Life: Source.
 * Source v2: Half-Life 2: Episode I, Day of Defeat: Source, Half-Life 2: The Lost Coast.
 * Source v3: Half-Life 2: Episode II, Team Fortress 2, Portal.

-- Sabre 13:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If you look in the console, it says "Source engine 11" along with the current build. All the binaries are in the "source 2007" gcfs. So yeah, Source has evolved quite a bit over time. They should call it the Orange engine or Portal engine or something. 69.182.201.57 04:31, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Engineer and speeding up building times
I know that the Engineer wrench speeds up building time if you bang on the structure with your wrench as it's building; it's easily verifiable. The question is, how do you cite something that's easily observable in-game? 129.123.248.132 01:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think you can cite something in the game, as it sorta falls under original research. Find a cite that mentions it; surely there are FAQs out there with the information. 69.182.201.57 04:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I found the following statement one of this article's external links (IGN). "The building of each device can be sped up by hammering the construct repeatedly with your wrench."  It's in the Engineer section at http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/791/791200p1.html Modul8r 17:26, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good find! I've added it to the article. Mfko 16:03, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Reception section
Rather than have a table of random ratings, it would be far better to have a section of prose describing the reviews given. The reviews are likely to draw attention to areas of the game that are particularly liked by the reviewer, as well as displaying some specific criticisms, and these things are generally worth mentioning in the encylopedic treatment of the game. Ratings should still be included, but should all be integrated into the prose rather than as a table. -- Sabre 10:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Release date is wrong
Release date is wrong. It was released on October 10th in North America. Should probably just copy the release dates from The Orange Box article. --Voidvector 21:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Gameplay correction
"As in the game's predecessor, Team Fortress Classic, Team Fortress 2 players can choose to play as one of nine classes"

Should read: "As in the game's predecessors, Team Fortress and Team Fortress Classic, Team Fortress 2 players can choose to play as one of nine classes" --Mcmanuss 13:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC) Also PS3 supports 16 players —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.146.205 (talk) 09:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

If you want to nit-pick, the previous games had ten classes including the civilian, which doesn't exist in TF2 (which could hopefully be included in future releases or custom mods) 169.226.75.228 20:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Date for the game
Hey, according to a calender in 2fort, the game is taking place in July 1968. Should this not be in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don V (talk • contribs) 19:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

can we be sure it's not just an old calender? What's kinda wierd is that the art style is like old american 1960's cartoon adverts, so that's porbably around the right date :P If it turns out to be the actual date (why not try emailing valve or posting on the steam forums? they're very good at replying) then i think it definatly deserves a place in the final design section.Stuffed Lizard 09:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Stuffed Fox

It's a little sad you actually mentioned that —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.94.6.29 (talk) 01:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Erm. It's a game with a gun that shoots healing, teleportation, and many other things--the game doesn't try for realism or a specific date. 216.61.238.76 03:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I looked at some of the game textures, and the "blueprints" for the engineer's buildings are all dated 1965. In that case, July '68 seems reasonable, but definitely not worth putting in the article unless it can be verified. 169.226.75.228 20:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Cross Platform.
Does anyone know if you are limited to only playing people who share a platform with you? Should it be mentioned in the article whether or not we can. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hewinsj (talk • contribs) 13:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not cross platform, so no mention of it should be made. Considering how cross platform play isn't widespread, its a case of mention it if it does, but make no mention of the fact if it doesn't. -- Sabre 16:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's cool, just something I was curious about and hadn't been able to find out about one way or the other. Thanks. Hewinsj 02:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Snipers Melee Weapon
The information for the Snipers melee weapon has jumped back and forth between machete and kukri. I think the reason might be that most players call the weapon a machete in-game, but the weapon clearly looks more like a kukri. What should the final verdict be? EdenMaster 13:19, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's known as a machete in the console and by most players. Plus, a kukri is a type of machete. Machete is therefore the best term. -- Sabre 14:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to say I prefer Kukri. It fits in much more with the Australian origin of the class.  Toby Douglass 15:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How does Nepalese Gurkha knife equate to Australian? Besides, the one in-game does not look anything as exotic as the kukri images. In any case, machetes come in all shapes and sizes: this is a machete and so is this. Calling it anything more specfic than a machete counts as original research. If a reliable source can be provided saying its a kukri, then all well and good. But until such time as a source is produced it should remain as a machete. -- Sabre 15:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sabre already said it - look at the console when someone is killed with that weapon. It clearly says "machete" 91.92.178.164 09:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

S@bre
I may be wrong, but I think the approach you're taking is strangling the article; it forestalls its structural development. Right now, the article is quite constrained by being centered on a class listing. That's not an appropriate structure to cover all the aspects of the game. So, for example, as a step out of this, I added a section on buildings, to cover that aspect of the game and to provide a place for information about buildings - quite a lot of which isn't really related to engineers at all. You however, have said "why have a section on something which is about engineers?" and deleted it. This is not useful - such new sections are not *it*, they are a single step in a larger series of steps. Deleting them when they appear retards development of the article. Toby Douglass 21:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I'm with S@bre, that Buildings section was horribly badly written, clunky and unnecessary. It had three paragraphs about why a Sentry Gun would or wouldn't fire on a Spy, for crying out loud, when it would be sufficient to say (so sufficient in fact, that it's mind-numbingly obvious) that a Sentry Gun will fire on anyone appearing to be on the opposite team. Buildings do not need their own section anymore than ammo boxes and medipacks need their own section. The Great Unwashed 03:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Whether or not that section is badly written, IYHO, isn't addressing the point I've made; that the article isn't well structured.


 * The article isn't terribly well structured no, and I agree, but the Buildings section you added made the problem worse, not better. Trivial information verging on a game guide, casual un-encyclopaedic wording, and three bleedin' paragraphs about this "logic error". Not necessary in any way. The Great Unwashed 08:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, I have to say: I could be wrong, but I think you have not understood the problem with SGs and Spys. There is a logical error in SG behaviour and your statement (SGs fire on anyone from the other team) fails to address that error and so is incorrect.  Toby Douglass 08:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, I have not misunderstood it: There is in fact no problem whatsoever. If you read my wording above you will see I said "will fire on anyone APPEARING TO BE on the opposite team". There is no logic error there. The sentry gun reads a player in the same way a player reads another player. It is fooled by diguises of enemies, but not that of friends, because they APPEAR differently. And bam, there we go, two sentences and I've removed all those three paragraphs. Seriously, I'm not having a go at you here, and I commend your enthusiasm, and I love Engineering too (my best class) but that sort of thing is *totally* unnecessary for this article in any way whatsoever. The Great Unwashed 08:33, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I was just thinking about what you'd written, and where you'd written "will fire on anyone APPEARING TO BE on the opposite team", the question came to mind; so why does the SG not fire on disguised friendly spies? you've given your answer here, and you've said: "[The SG] is fooled by diguises of enemies, but not that of friends, because they APPEAR differently".  That means that if an friendly spy is disguised as an enemy soldier, the SG knows that is a friendly player, but if an enemy spy is diguised an enemy soldier, the SG knows that is a hostile player - and that is the logic error I wrote about.  If other people want to read that material, they'll need to go back in the history, since that material has been removed from the article.


 * Finally, why is this material unsuitable? is it about the game, and is about a problem in the game.  I assert it has a rightful a place in this article as any other information.  Toby Douglass 13:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How is this a logic error? The logic is simple. The Sentry Gun reads enemies as players do. Bam. Seriously, I understand the situation as you describe but a) I do not see this as a logic error and b) As S@bre has rightly pointed out, that level of detail is unnecessary and uncyclopaedic. The Great Unwashed 16:46, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I also agree with S@abre's edits; if anything I think the article needs much more pruning. However, so soon after the release of a game, it's better to allow a little leeway and prune later so as to avoid biting the newcomers that edit the article in the initial enthusiasm that follows a new release. CIreland 03:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Something struck me yesterday. If new material is unsourced but correct, the direction of effort should be to find citations, not to remove the material.  Toby Douglass 08:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've no problem with the sourcing, it's generally pretty good. Rather, I believe there's simply too much (albeit well sourced) fancruft and gameguide-esque material, particularly in the class descriptions. CIreland 09:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm curious about that - why is it wrong to have such information in the article? it's all information about the game - in this case, information about gameplay.


 * What I had in mind, with my comment, was the stuff I'd written about Sentry Guns and so on. It's all correct, I know because I play the game and I see it happening, but of course it's unsourced - it's not cited.  I am building up material for an article on my home page, of course, but that's recursive.  As an aside, I wrote the CS Report, so I'm fairly authoritative about such things. Toby Douglass 10:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm still struggling to see a reason for the "logic error" part. It's probably good that it's at the end of the article so people can switch off and not read it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.97.8 (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The edits come down to one single thing: that level of detail in unencyclopedic. Extensive information on gameplay is not needed, only an overview - the important sections are those on development, reception, criticism, etc. From that perspective the class sections themselves are arguably too drawn out and therefore should be "pruned" as other editors have suggested. Certainly adding a whole new section on buildings - which is sufficiently covered in the engineer section - is not needed. As far as encyclopedic treatment goes, all that is needed is the information that the engineer can build upgradable sentry guns that shoot things, dispensers that replenish health and supplies and teleporters that teleport. Anything further, such as elaborating on specific gameplay mechanics on how the sentry works out how to shoot spies, is completely unnecessary. Even if that wasn't the case, the way the section was written was not appropriate for an encyclopedia, although it would be perfectly fine for a game guide or a non-encyclopedic article on the game. If you want somewhere for that avenue of writing, you would probably be much better off at the TF2 Wiki rather than Wikipedia.

And by the way, I have a talk page where these kinds of messages are supposed to go. -- Sabre 14:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Buildings Section
Can we stop re-adding this almost irrelivant issue about Logic and SG's ? As S@bre says above a whole new section on Buildings is borderline at best but adding the logic as well makes it even more tempting to prune.

Spy -> Franco-Spanish accent?
Hi there, im spanish and i dont think that the spy talk with our accent, beside that in spain we have about 5 or 6 different accents (from andalusia, catalonia, etc,etc)...

When i hear the spy the first thing that i have in my mind is the french, nothing more.

Someone can explain and expand this a bit more? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.43.125.43 (talk) 11:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I think the accent is more of an upper-class British, maybe Anglo-French, but the use of one or two Spanish or French phrases has pushed consensus towards being Franco-Spanish. Ideally, we need a reference to confirm each accent - currently only the sniper's accent is referenced. -- Sabre 13:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think he's French primarily, not really British or Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.97.8 (talk) 11:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No chance is it British. I'd agree with french, though. Hayaku 14:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's clearly a South African accent. - Tomos ANTIGUA Tomos 23:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not "clearly" anything, the amount of different accents put forward as an answer is example of that. -- Sabre 10:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He says doctor in French, so he is most likely French. Although I don't believe that this is at all important really. -- Afoxtrotn00b —Preceding comment was added at 00:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He sometimes says Prego as thanks. Prego is Italian for I pray, so I'd say he's Franco-Italian. Pedroshin 01:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What about a Franco-Provençal accent? 85.240.232.173 01:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We badly need to reference these accents to stop the debates. A temporary solution would be to email Valve and directly ask them. -- Sabre 12:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In all honesty, common sense would say that the Valve team would choose the simplest and most stereotyped accent instead of being so horribly specific as making the Spy have as franco-anything accent. He's simply French. End of story. Afoxtrotn00b —Preceding comment was added at 21:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

As said, it's not simple or clear: the different opinions put forward show that. In any case, these accents need to be referenced, otherwise they fall under original research, regardless of how simple or insignificant anyone thinks it is. -- Sabre 22:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

True, but there is no denying he says Prego in the game. Although Prego also means Nail in Portuguese I don't think that's what he's meaning to say, so we're left with the Prego from Italian I pray. We can say that the source of the information that we used for the conclusion is the game sound itself, so I think there's no mistaking it. Pedroshin 07:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

images
Using so very many non-free images to illustrate each and every class in the game is unnecessary (as this is not a game guide) and generally against the non-free content criteria. But as the varying classes and their implementation seem to be such an integral part of the game, wouldn't a group shot of all the character classes together be warranted at the heading of the section? —  pd_THOR  undefined | 00:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, this would probably work better. Vtrickzv 05:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

We've already got a group shot as part of the title art in the infobox. In that case, maybe we simply don't need images for the class section. -- Sabre 13:49, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This is awesome: http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7976/epicpicturemy4.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.253.228 (talk) 07:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

vocie actors
does anyone known who the voice actors are for the characters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Northerntoe (talk • contribs) 15:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Pyro = female ?
I don't think this should be added in the article since it's speculation, but i believe most of you (at least those who don't know it yet) will find it interesting. Check this out:

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/purse1bff.jpg http://content.imagesocket.com/images/purse297f.jpg

It actually adds up - his clothes are too baggy to distinguish any body characteristics, his voice is muffled, but still has a high enough pitch to be female. I guess we'll be in for a big surprise with "Meet the Pyro" when that comes out. I so hope i'm right, this'll be hilarious. 91.92.178.164 14:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)