Talk:Team Fortress 2/Archive 3

Snipers Melee Weapon
The information for the Snipers melee weapon has jumped back and forth between machete and kukri. I think the reason might be that most players call the weapon a machete in-game, but the weapon clearly looks more like a kukri. What should the final verdict be? EdenMaster 13:19, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

It's known as a machete in the console and by most players and reliable sources. The model name is also "machete". Plus, a kukri is a type of machete. Machete is therefore the best term. -- Sabre 14:32, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to say I prefer Kukri. It fits in much more with the Australian origin of the class.  Toby Douglass 15:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * How does Nepalese Gurkha knife equate to Australian? Besides, the one in-game does not look anything as exotic as the kukri images. In any case, machetes come in all shapes and sizes: this is a machete and so is this. Calling it anything more specfic than a machete counts as original research. If a reliable source can be provided saying its a kukri, then all well and good. But until such time as a source is produced it should remain as a machete. -- Sabre 15:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sabre already said it - look at the console when someone is killed with that weapon. It clearly says "machete" 91.92.178.164 09:42, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree I play it all the time and people always refer to it as a machete besides people will never really call it a Kukri == Jigsaw107


 * And we're right back to Kukri, it seems. A note just to throw out into the discussion: the console refers to the weapon as a "club" and not as a "machete".  EdenMaster (talk) 07:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Console says machete last time I checked. Sure it wasn't referring to the scout? -- Sabre (talk) 11:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, it's the Snipers. The console calls the melees:  Scout/bat, Soldier/shovel, Pyro/fireaxe, Demoman/bottle, Heavy/fists, Medic/bonesaw, Engineer/wrench, Spy/knife.  The Snipers weapon is listed as club.  Though it's obviously not one.  I'm just throwing this out there for the sake of conversation.  EdenMaster (talk) 02:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This maybe a little late, but we have recently had the same issue on the TF2 Wiki that caused much debate which can be seen on the Talk:Kukri Machete page. After much research, it was decided to move the page back to Kukri due to Kukri being a distinctly different weapon to a Machete, citations of sources at the bottom of the page. --Brid175 (talk) 15:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that this entire debate is very reminiscent of Counter-Strike calling an artic warfare magnum an artic warfare police, and all the related bickering. In the end it doesn't really matter, and CS renamed all the guns for retail anyways. I imagine valve would do similar if this ever needed an official ruling, its not a machette or a kukri, its "a sniper bladed weapon" --Semi (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to throw this out there, yes the console says 'club' for the snipers melee weapon. It might be called club cause valve might of been too lazy to type kukuri...as well as avoiding spelling mistakes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.226.63.76 (talk) 13:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Its not a kukri,the spine isnt of kukri origin as the spine curves, its not flat backed. I have no "official" source for this but the design is actually modelled on the golok as carried by the australians around the time of the vietnam war. British model MA65.. http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh19/politicalanimalau/machete.jpg the TF2 melee weapon of the sniper http://www.wellingtonsurplus.com.au/images/l/MA0013.jpg - the golok —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.26.76 (talk) 08:27, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Spy -> Franco-Spanish accent?
Hi there, im spanish and i dont think that the spy talk with our accent, beside that in spain we have about 5 or 6 different accents (from andalusia, catalonia, etc,etc)...

When i hear the spy the first thing that i have in my mind is the french, nothing more.

Someone can explain and expand this a bit more? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.43.125.43 (talk) 11:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I think the accent is more of an upper-class British, maybe Anglo-French, but the use of one or two Spanish or French phrases has pushed consensus towards being Franco-Spanish. Ideally, we need a reference to confirm each accent - currently only the sniper's accent is referenced. -- Sabre 13:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think he's French primarily, not really British or Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.97.8 (talk) 11:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No chance is it British. I'd agree with french, though. Hayaku 14:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's clearly a South African accent. - Tomos ANTIGUA Tomos 23:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not "clearly" anything, the amount of different accents put forward as an answer is example of that. -- Sabre 10:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He says doctor in French, so he is most likely French. Although I don't believe that this is at all important really. -- Afoxtrotn00b —Preceding comment was added at 00:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He sometimes says Prego as thanks. Prego is Italian for I pray, so I'd say he's Franco-Italian. Pedroshin 01:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What about a Franco-Provençal accent? 85.240.232.173 01:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * We badly need to reference these accents to stop the debates. A temporary solution would be to email Valve and directly ask them. -- Sabre 12:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

In all honesty, common sense would say that the Valve team would choose the simplest and most stereotyped accent instead of being so horribly specific as making the Spy have as franco-anything accent. He's simply French. End of story. Afoxtrotn00b —Preceding comment was added at 21:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

As said, it's not simple or clear: the different opinions put forward show that. In any case, these accents need to be referenced, otherwise they fall under original research, regardless of how simple or insignificant anyone thinks it is. -- Sabre 22:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

True, but there is no denying he says Prego in the game. Although Prego also means Nail in Portuguese I don't think that's what he's meaning to say, so we're left with the Prego from Italian I pray. We can say that the source of the information that we used for the conclusion is the game sound itself, so I think there's no mistaking it. Pedroshin 07:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it is that, being a spy and having to impersonate many different accents, he has developed a separate accent that is a medley of many different native accents? Juuuuust a thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.14.24 (talk) 23:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The spy ovoiously has and Italian accecnt his says Italian words when you taughnt people it's france Italian===Jigsaw107 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jigsaw107 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The spy is French. His additional mannerisms (Prego and etc) are side effects of constant disgusing. He has an Engineer impression taunt as well. -64.119.142.118 (talk) 15:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, this is getting ridiculous. Instead of saying "the spy is {insert nationality here} because of {insert deduced reasoning here}" find a reliable reference that states concisely what accent Valve intended (not what a fan site thinks) it to be. You can't prove it by these "oh he says this" comments, that is not how Wikipedia works. I will remove any further comments along those lines as it is not actually helping the article develop and this is not a forum for discussion otherwise. Find a reliable reference to back it up, or don't add it. -- Sabre (talk) 16:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

True, we'll hopefully have the needed reference when the 'Meet the Spy' video is out, though I think in the article it either should not refer to his accent at all or, if referred, it should match the most correct possible when there is no credible references. I know this isn't any better than a real citation from Valve's source, but just for curiosity and the discussion's sake you can listen to the spy_thanks01.wav sound here. The sound is inside team fortress 2 content in \tf\sound\vo\ if you want to hear it yourself by the way. I have read some of the rules regarding linking, but haven't found nothing on particular regarding giving links to audio media in discussions, but you seem to know more than me so do tell if this doesn't help or reverse my edits if it's against the rules... Pedroshin (talk) 03:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

There was another edit by an anonymous IP to fiddle with the accent again, so I've removed mention of the Spy's accent until a further time at which we have source. I think this is the most sensible approach. The Great Unwashed (talk) 04:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the accent is a purposely ambiguous, generic "Western European". I don't believe Valve intended him to be any nationality, but instead of mysterious origin...he's a spy, after all. That's my take anyway. Waiting for a source. -- Gяaρнic  12:09, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thats a good solution until we have proof. I see the scout's accent has also been removed as well. -- Sabre (talk) 16:45, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Graphics
The cartoon graphics that the game has were talked about in the commentary. It said that the graphics were at first going to be realistic but nobody could tell anybody apart. Any citation of this?(Ralon silver 23:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC))

Just cite the ingame commentary itself Tomgreeny 03:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The in-game commentary has text versions in one of the GCF files somewhere. Check the TF2 english one. It might help with citing. WhyTwoKay (talk) 14:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Engineer Equipment
The following sentence should probably be clarified. When an engineer dies, any equipment he built remains in the game until it is destroyed or until he changes classes, except when in the sudden death mode. It's hard to tell what exactly the exception is.

1. The equipment remains in the game.

2. The equipment does not remain the game when destroyed.

3. The equipment does not remain in the game when the player changes classes.

Unless the reader already knows the rules of the game, it won't be clear whether the exception refers to case 1, case 2, case 3, or some combination.

134.88.248.143 22:10, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

System requirements - 7206MB + Steam
Came here among other places to find the disk requirements. I'm amazed at how much is required just to run TF2. That's the Orange Box retail with only TF2 selected for install (Steam took an undisclosed amount of space to install). I don't know how to edit wikis and I'm too lazy to figure it out, but someone may want to add that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.163.112 (talk) 04:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not an installation guide. -Jéské ( Blah v^_^v ) 05:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * 7.2 gigs is well worth mentioning. Bloody Sacha (talk) 09:30, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

32-Player PC Servers
I noticed once again that 32-player servers aren't recognized any more; should we put it back in that there's a workaround that allows 32-man servers and is routinely updated to work whenever an update is released? The info on here has been on and off, but it looks like 32-man support is here to stay. RGReasons (talk) 21:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Provide a reliable source for it and make certain to note that it's an unofficial patch, and it's fine. The previous mention got removed because no-one referenced it when it was challenged and so it was removed. -- Sabre (talk) 22:07, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I suppose valve supports it now. They mentioned it in their most recent update info for TF2. Mentioned at the 12th bullet of the update posted on November 10th.


 * Still need something a bit more solid than a vague changelog. What about the site where the patch was distributed? -- Sabre (talk) 22:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll keep searching, but that changelog is from valve (the maker and distributor of the game). The game is patched automatically through their software.  either way, i'll keep looking. RGReasons (talk) 21:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey guys, here's the link to the official update history (just in case) . It looks to be behind a little though. Didn't see an official nod to 32 players, but servers accomodating that many players are almost the norm, it seems.Dp76764 (talk) 21:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Sniper Australian?
I know there's a citation for it, but I don't know whether the Sniper is really meant to be Australian. The source cited is a review and so it's possible the reviewer is making an incorrect guess. He sounds distinctly English to me and he even uses phrases like 'God Save the Queen' and 'Wanker', which I would have thought are stereotypically English.80.7.59.211 20:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The Queen is the head of state of Australia. And all his lines are in keeping with the Aussie stereotype, although one or two are also associated with Britain. His hat is also of an Aussie style. Consensus amongst established sources and reviews says he's Australian. Unless something comes from Valve to the contary, it should remain as Australian. -- Sabre 20:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, that and one of his taunts is "I'm a dinkum Aussie, not some bloody cartoon". Seems pretty self explanatory to me, another dinkum Aussie... The Great Unwashed 02:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Its just a shame about the accent, it irritates me as it doesnt sound Australian. 210.49.48.10 15:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Really? I *am* Australian, and it sounds plenty Aussie to me. A bit over the top to be sure but it's meant to be. Plus with lines like "Ya bloody bogans" and "Ya bloody pissheads" it's pretty hard to think of him as anything but. The Great Unwashed (talk) 01:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * yeah hes over done australian, also someone pointed out a while ago that the game is sort of set in a 1960's-ish type era in which case the god save the queen would be more sensical than todays indifference to the monarchy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hypo Mix (talk • contribs) 13:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

New achievements mentioned by Steam Update
Upcoming 30 or so new achievements for TF2 were mentioned by Steam Update as coming soon. I can't find the exact amount, or when they're expected or I'd update the article. I feel this shows that Valve is still updating/patching/improving the game. I also heard a rumor that they were considering to eventually add new classes, such as: scientist, pirate, security officer, ninja, trapper, or commander; though I don't know the source of the rumor. Meekil (talk) 17:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We don't need details on achievements other than acknowledgement that they exist and their basic operation. As for the class addition rumours, they need 100% reliable and verifiable sources for statements such as that. "I heard a rumour" isn't sufficient evidence for encyclopedic content - we can't have any speculation regarding new classes. -- Sabre (talk) 17:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Official Character Bios
I see that there are plenty of discussions here regarding each class's intended background, nationality, and etc. Just an FYI to anyone who's interested, the Steam catalog gives a short biography on every character who has had a "Meet the Team" video released so far: Although not too helpful just yet for the previous discussions about the Spy, Sniper, Pyro, and whatnot, keep a lookout here in the future for more useful information once more character videos are released. MarphyBlack (talk) 23:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Meet the Demoman
 * Meet the Engineer
 * Meet the Heavy
 * Meet the Soldier


 * They've already used as references where possible. -- Sabre (talk) 10:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Civilian and Pyro Talk
There is a 10th class, civilian, like in classic, although it seems like a place-holder (for now I hope.) I put up a comment on it but it was removed because " developer's rooms are off-limits, as are other cheat/not-known secret areas" - Jéské Couriano. This gave me a bit of confusion, I will take that it is meant to not tell anything you cant get to without game hacking, but that console is too commonly used in Source to not know of it's existence (or is this a Garry's mod delusion of mine?). Also, the Pyro has a purse in her(?) locker. CAF51 (talk) 01:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I agree the civilian should definitely be mentioned. It is hardly a cheat, a secret or even "un-known". All you have to do is type "join_class civilian" in the console and you will spawn as a civilian the next time you die. Go to ANY server with more than 10 people on it, join the civilian class, and somebody is bound to make a comment about it, more often than not joining the class for them selfs for a little fun.


 * For the record the civilian looks like a scout, but has no animations whatsoever (not even breathing..) and just stands there like a statue. This makes for a very spooky sight when he is running and jumping around the level. He also moves a little slower than a heavy and has only 50hp. Apart from moving and jumping, he has no actions whatsoever, not even crouching.


 * Any serious TF2 player will know about the civilian... I don't know what Jéské Couriano was thinking but I am going to recreate it and contest it myself if he tries to take it down. As for being useless, I hardly thinks so. If your team is totally being dominated by questionable or overly-ambitious tactics of the other, ie heavy use of snipers, sentries and sticky bombs to outright deny access, or simply if you feel your team is underperforming, its fairly common that a few of the players will boycott the game in a manner of speaking and jump around as civlilian for the rest of the game. This normally sends a message to the other team that they have had enough, and you will often find members of the other team will also join civilian in sympathy and participate in the silliness and confusion created by eerie looking civilian. Hayaku (talk) 01:58, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No. Do not add the civilian back in. It is not enyclopaedic information. Wikipedia does not exist to catalogue all the development material left behind that is accessible by console commands. Next you'll be trying to tell me that the picmip command is worthwhile putting into this article because people need to know how to make their textures sharper.


 * If you add the civilian back in, I will take it down too. Seriously, read the relevant guidelines. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and Wikipedia is not a game guide. If the Civilian becomes an official class, he can be added in. Until then, it's out of the scope of this article, end of story. The Great Unwashed (talk) 02:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * While I'm at it, this whole thing was started with a link to the TF2 Wikia page. That is EXACTLY where this sort of information belongs, NOT on Wikipedia. The Great Unwashed (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Information on the civilian is completely unneeded at this stage. If it is officially returned into gameplay, then it should be included. But this is not encyclopedic information: it is unverifiable speculation on the return of a class based on something that could be nothing more than a development oversight and it does not have reliable sources (ie not TF2 Wiki or other fansites, rather statements by Valve or media outlets like IGN) to back it up. As said, TF2 Wiki is the place for this dubious information, not an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. -- Sabre (talk) 10:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The fifth point of this effectively closes the argument. Its nothing more than a development oversight and has been removed. -- Sabre (talk) 16:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

A development oversight yes, I agree. But you are completely ignoring the cultural value it has contributed to the game, or maybe you just don't play it enough to realise. "Next you'll be trying to tell me that the picmip command is worthwhile" is totally retarded logic. Nobody cares about things like that. The Civilian on the other hand is totally something you see in public servers on a regular basis and is arguably part of the game as defined by the players experience. Hayaku (talk) 02:01, 24 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe I just don't play it enough to realise? I've only clocked up nearly 65 hours in total and got all 17 achievements. You can't say something is "totally retarded logic" and then back it up by saying "nobody cares about things like that" or that the Civilian adds "to the cultural value of the game". You're backing up your own criticism of my supposedly retarded logic (and it isn't, by the way, by your own definition of enhanced player experiences) with your own vague emotional appeal to faith. "Clearly, you don't understand TF2 on the deep and meaningful level I, Hayaku, do. Ahahaha. Ahahaha." At what point in time did it escape you that this is Wikipedia, NOT the TF2 wiki. It doesn't matter how many times you've seen a Civilian on a server, they are NOT part of the game and with their removal in the latest patch they are even less of a part of the game. When they get officially added back in and Valve brings a VIP mode back, then it's time to add the Civilian to this article. Until then, maybe you should refamiliarise yourself with exactly what Wikipedia is trying to do here. The Great Unwashed (talk) 05:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotta agree with The Great Unwashed; if it's not officially part of the game, it doesn't belong here. I've clocked up similar play time and stats and had honestly never seen a civilian or even heard about it (before reading it here), so obviously it wasn't that ubiquitous. Dp76764 (talk) 06:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but I am not sure where you were going with that whole "retarded logic" statement. I was just trying to say that I took issue with the fact that you compared a semi-secret yet playable class with a minor cult following with a graphical smoothing command and saying each is on equal footing on a cultural level, simply on the basis that both are console-activated. Clearly whether or not Civilian should be included (and it seems now the overwhelming opinion is that it shouldn't, even I now accept this) is not an argument of whether or not it is part of the game or whether or not it requires a console command to activate, but the level to which it has been adopted and recognised by the gaming majority. Again, if I have lost this argument I happily concede defeat. Maybe I was just playing on a couple of quirky servers at the time but at least in my experience the Civilian was very much part of the game.

But still, your blanket argument against the Civilian's inclusion on the basis that it was not part of the game was mostly what fired me on argue to the level that I did. G-man was not officially the name of a certain Half Life character, though as it was his model name it was all people had to go by and the name stuck. Clearly what defines what part of the game is has little to do with the developers intentions and more on how the gaming public react to the game and the culture the create around it.

Now, had things gone the other way, and the Civilians tragic death been met with countless youtube eulogies much in the way goatse was when it was taken down, and he got reinstated by Valve due to popular demand, then he would be in the article. But none of this has anything to do with whether or not he is part of the game by your definitions.

Now can we please stop this flame barrage already? I never intended for this to get personal. I happily admit that the Civilian should not be part of this article now, on grounds that he failed to make enough impact on the general gaming community to warrant his inclusion. If you were to accept that despite not being an official part of the game, he could have been potentially been included in this article if the opposite was true I am happy to let this go 100% Hayaku (talk) 15:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Huh? Flame barrage? Nearly a month later? I'm sorry if you feel like I was personally insulting you, but when you open by calling my arguments "retarded logic" and "nobody cares about that" it's a bit hard not to feel a little bit offended. Regardless, I'm glad you concede that the Civilian should not form part of this article. Obviously our definitions of player culture differ, and that's okay. The fact remains that such information is, and always was un-encyclopaedic, and therefore not inside the scope of Wikipedia, or this article. The Great Unwashed (talk) 04:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if I was not more specific, "nobody cares about things like that" was referring specifically to the picmip command, something I still maintain to this day though if you or anyone else has a particular fondness for it I am happy to modify my views :) When I said your logic was "retarded" I did not mean your logic or argument as a whole, or anything to do with your arguments that Civ had no place in Wikipedia, it was your use of "what next!? ..." which i personally feel is a weak argument tactic especially when the follow up is totally unrelated to the original subject and has little relevance in  of its own right.

"the civilian should be included ... what next, should it get its own avatar in the selection screen and a place on the box art?" I could kind of accept, just. I do not agree it is a logical extension but at least it has some minor relevance. But even TRYING to suggest that including the civ in this article would open up the flood gates to every other console command demanding an entry was a little more than I could swallow.

So there, your logic regarding the civ in this article = ok

you argument in general = ok

Picmip as a function of how many people care about it = nobody

your use of picmip as a justification of why the civ should not get a mention = logically retarded

I hope now you are satisfied I was not trying to offend you, I just found that "what next" thing to be a little bit below the belt.

Hayaku (talk) 09:14, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

TF2 Userboxes!
All the userboxes you would ever need for the Ultimate TF2 Player! - WxHalo (talk) 04:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Dude, I love the idea but you need to check the wording and spelling on a lot of those boxes, the word "user" is missing from a lot of them. Nice though! The Great Unwashed (talk) 06:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah.. not the world's greatest speller. Thanks for pointing those things out. I made these at 2AM in the morning after having 4 rounds of caffinated soda at 9 and beleve I was not going to bed anytime soon so I just decided to make these.. Fixing now.. (EDIT: All fixed and spell checked.) Thanks again.
 * You need to have apostrophes in the correct places (this user's, not this users), ellipses (...) have a space between them and the next word, and commas need to go in some of them (This user's favourite TF2 character is a Soldier, and thinks everybody else is a maggot!). Otherwise, great. MAGGOTS! Oh, and can I make a suggestion? "Spy's sappin' this user's sentreh!" —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 20:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Should be that the medic doesn't care about the Hippocratic oath rather than doesn't know about. Adds a bit more personality. And we need something alcholic with the demoman. But good effort! -- Sabre (talk) 22:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I added possessive apostrophes and lowercase where appropriate for you. Also, "likes to bonk people" might be more appropriate for the Scout. Good job on the boxes, though. EvilCouch (talk) 10:11, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I like, but the Spy hates it when people bleed on his suit! EdenMaster (talk) 16:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Info from Robin Walker re: new maps
from		Robin Walker  to		me date		Dec 21, 2007 4:56 AM subject		RE: Team Fortress 2 mailed-by		valvesoftware.com Hi Stuart. Glad you're enjoying the game. We hope to have a new map out shortly after the new year, followed by one of our new Hunted style maps after that. Robin. -- Previous unsigned comment was added by 123.242.167.42


 * That really needs to be referenced to a reliable (and by association, published) source for the article rather than an email, but the information is good to know. I've accordingly added a tag until a reliable source can be provided to verify it. --  Sabre (talk) 00:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/50709 123.243.167.42 (talk) 14:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That doesn't say anything about the assassination mode, which is the main thing that needs verification. -- Sabre (talk) 14:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Armor
I've now tried twice (on two different computers) to remove all mentions of armor, and both times it has been reverted (usually for a silly reason). I think it's about time that it be agreed that all mentions of armor be removed, since there is no armor in Team Fortress 2. Otherwise it could mislead readers into thinking otherwise. The best alternative is using what is already used for the majority of the article; damage tolerance. I find it totally un-encyclopedic to have such inconsistencies as having one class said to be "lightly armored" while another is "low damage tolerance." It only makes sense to pick one and stay with it, and since there is no armor in TF2, the second is more appropriate. --76.69.70.213 (talk) 21:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Variety is the spice of life. While "lightly armoured" may not be appropriate due to its potential to mislead, simply replacing all phrases with one is bad for article dynamics: repetitive use of phrases affects quality and can also be deemed "unencyclopedic". Plus, just putting "low damage tolerance" over "lightly armoured" has created sentences in bad English. -- Sabre (talk) 23:39, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well at least removing the mention of armor (as has been done) is sufficient to avoid being misleading. Since the purpose is to inform, having false information is always bad. --76.69.70.213 (talk) 00:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know if you'd call mention of the word "armour" misleading exactly. The Heavy wears a kevlar vest, which could be considered armour. Obviously it's not plate armour such as one would find in medieval Britain, but you know. Style is important for this guide over the sheer technical accuracy, and I don't think anybody's going to read this article, think "Wow, I love armour!" and then get disappointed when actual, physical armour makes no appearance in the game... The Great Unwashed (talk) 00:56, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Visual armour is a different story. It has no effect on gameplay and is simply aesthetic. The mentions I spoke of described armour as though it was part of game mechanics, which it is not. --76.69.70.213 (talk) 02:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Valve announces Loadout rewards, new weapons, new game mode, medic changes
add this info stat. perhaps a new section for updates released post-release could be added? it could contain this info, the new pyro/soldier changes, and ctf_well stuff, as well as noting exploit fixes and such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.167.42 (talk • contribs) 11:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Team Fortress 2 Gets Unlockable Weapons, Oh Yeah: And CTF_Well Is Out In A Few Days, Team Fortress 2: Update Revealed. PC Gamer UK got the international scoop on this, so it should definitely be added under a reputable new source. The main meat of the info is here. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 12:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Surf gameplay for TF2
Alright so I was playing Team Fortress 2 yesterday when I found a server that uses the highly popular "surf" style map that was originally in Counter-Strike. I was wondering if this should be put into the article as this is a new addition to the gameplay. Thanks Darkkest (talk) 11:19, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Quick answer? No it shouldn't. A bunch of stuff done by the community in this regard is not automatically notable enough for inclusion. -- Sabre (talk) 11:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Pyro's Flamethrower
It is not the most powerful close range weapon. It could be behind sasha, rocket, grenades, needlegun, probably even the shotgun.

I play a lot of pyro and it is by far not the most powerful weapon. I am scared to attack medics if they are actually smart enough to pull out the needlegun because I will be stuck to them trying to burn them to death so they hit me with the needles which takes about a 1 second burst to kill me.

Offcrcartman (talk) 08:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid that's your opinion, which doesn't count in this article. I believe the statement is not just taken from the amount of damage given by the Pyro holding their flamethrower against another player, it's also combined with the fact that the closer a Pyro gets the more damage the flame does, and the fact that one Pyro dropping in from above can set an entire group of players alight - if there aren't any medics around, they'll all die long after the Pyro has run away. —Vanderdecken∴ ∫ξφ 10:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The medic is only a threat using the needlegun at a range greater than the flamethrower whilst retreating with the pyro chasing them (this is where the balance is really visible). A medic does not last more than half a second with a close-point blank burst from the flamethrower. -- Purerizzo (talk) 15:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

self-undo
Motivations here. MOJSKA  666  (msg) 20:00, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I can't see anything that suggests the site is official. The use of gmail accounts, the presence of Google advertising and the lack of any copyright information at the bottom suggest that this is not an official site run by Valve. It is far more likely to be a fan site. In any case, if it can be proven to be official - which it must to warrant inclusion - it does not need that level of coverage. A sentence stating the site exists and its inclusion in the external links section is all that is encyclopedically necessary. Wikipedia isn't a collection of indiscrimination. -- Sabre (talk) 20:08, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Food for though: reliableexcavationdemolition.com is registered (on 2/6/08 through GoDaddy) with an email of fragimus_max@hypergeek.com with a residence in FL. steampowered.com is registered to Valve Corp with an address in VA.  Seems pretty obvious that it's a fansite. Dp76764 (talk) 20:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Just run a similar check on samspade.org, got the same stuff back in. It also shows that the site was created on 6 February 2008, making the claim it was created in 1996 completely false. Fairly conclusive that it is not an official website. -- Sabre (talk) 20:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Demoman's Bottle
This is for those who insist that the Demoman carries a bottle of cider based on a single line in the game, rather than a bottle of whisky. Note that all the shots below use only default content. The first shot is that of the default RED bottle.

Demoman bottle for RED team

It is marked as XXX and with a date. Based on that alone, we can only tell that it is alcohol. The second shot is that of the BLU bottle skin, which is in the GCF but has not been set up, most likely it has been overlooked by Valve.

Demoman bottle for BLU team

It is clearly visible along the bottom of the bottle "Scotch", with a year at the top of the label. The final image is of the weapon select sprites for both teams.

Demoman bottle sprites

The RED sprite differs from the skin, but visibly states "RED Shed Whisky". The corresponding sprite for the BLU team matches the unused skin in the GCF, reading "Scotch across the bottom. Perhaps the demoman's so intoxicated he can't tell what he's drinking anymore. But when the bottle itself indicates a whisky, it cannot be taken as a cider based on a single line spoken by the character. -- Sabre (talk) 14:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * A line of dialogue and a couple of lines of game art seem about equal in terms of reliability; a script editor versus a graphic artist, either of whom could have gotten it wrong. (Maybe it's a whisky bottle filled with cider!) The source we're actually citing for this just says "Melee weapon: Bottle", and it's not up to us to over-interpret the primary sources. --McGeddon (talk) 15:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In that case, perhaps we had best seek some more neutral wording, that indicates an alcholic drink but not conclusively stating that it is either whisky or cider. -- Sabre (talk) 15:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How abouts just "Armed with a grenade launcher, a remotely detonated sticky bomb launcher and a bottle" ? -- Purerizzo (talk) 15:27, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Simple and to the point, and the fact we've already stated he's drunk implies its alcoholic. Changes made. -- Sabre (talk) 16:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)