Talk:Techniques of Knowledge

Untitled

 * Talk:Techniques of Knowledge/sources

Restoration
On reviewing the edit histories I found that this article had been merged into Teachings of Prem Rawat, and that much of the material had been lost. Following discussions at various related talk pages, it seems to me best to restore the deleted material on these specific techniques and improve upon it. I believe that there are some additional sources and material that we can add, and that we can greatly improve the quality. The "Teachings" article is facing splits and mergers, and this material is already briefly summarized there, so the two articles can proceed on parallel tracks. Even more than the loss of material, this article has a better defined topic than Teachings of Prem Rawat, and it's easier to build on this foundation. The techniquies of Knowledge are only one aspect of Rawata's teachings, but they are not exclusive to him, so it make more sense to treat them separately.  Will Beback   talk    08:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Amending the Lede
“The most notable teacher is Prem Rawat, known as Maharaji to his students,”  This is an unsupported statement and should be removed asap as it clearly fails any test under NPOV.

Beyond that the lede should set the subject firmly within its earliest identifiable historical context, that is within the philosophy of Hans Rawat, followed by identification of its subsequent use by Satpal Maharaj and Prem Rawat.
 * --Nik Wright2 (talk) 08:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I disagree. I'm sure many Americans (at least) don't know that Maharaji is now known as Prem Rawat, and would like to know that there's a connection.  Maharaji caused quite a stir in the USA at the height of his fame.  "Maharaji" was explained to me as "Maharaj" ("great king") with a suffix of "-ji", meaning "dear". Unfree (talk) 19:55, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for new lede
The Knowledge (also Spiritual Knowledge, Divine Knowledge and Self Knowledge) was a term used by Hans Ram Singh Rawat to denote a formulation of four specific  meditation techniques that were imparted in a process of initiation. The term has continued to be used by two of Hans Ram Singh Rawat’s sons, Satpal Maharaj and Prem Pal Singh Rawat.
 * --Nik Wright2 (talk) 08:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Sources supporting new lede
(1) Hadden, Religions of the world, pp.428 "The meditation techniques the Maharaji teaches today are the same he learned from his father, Hansji Maharaj, who, in turn, learned them from his spiritual teacher [Sarupanand] …….

(2) Hans Yog Prakash: Author Hans Ram Singh Rawat. (1936 ?) (copy available at http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/library/hyp/hyp.htm).

''“Without the complete and perfect Knowledge, the heart cannot know any peace. Artificial devotion cannot hold the appearance of love for very long.”

“Whoever is truly impartial can have devotion. Whoever has no illusions can have Knowledge.”

“No one can reach God without devotion to Satguru. He alone can give Knowledge of the Supreme.”

"Only by devotion to Satguru can you receive Knowledge of the Supreme. All scriptures sing the praises of devotion to the Perfect Master".''

(3) Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj Divine Light Mission (C.L.Tandon), B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India – 1970 (copy available at http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/Satgurudev.htm )

''Shri Hans Ji Maharaj was a beacon showing the path of light to lakhs of people in India and was worshipped by them as their Satguru. He was an ideal saint, but more than that he was the perfect karma yogi. The members of the Divine Light Mission are indebted to him for imparting the knowledge of Divine Light and Sabad Brahm. The message of Shri Maharaj Ji has a special significance in the modern context, for without this knowledge of the true self of man there cannot be any possibility of peace on this earth. It is not until man finds his divinity and shines in the glow of the inner light that love will reign and mankind be truly united. Guru Maharaj Ji showed us that the responsibility for a fundamental change in this hate striven world lies with the individual, for unless we kill the hatred and the war within us there shall never be an end of strife without. The knowledge of the Divine Light and Name of God shows man the practical path to the kingdom of heaven where man shall not lift sword against man, neither shall he know war anymore.''

''He gifted me with Knowledge Divine. On the day of Initiation, I was reborn spiritually and learnt the true nature of the 'Self'. How simple is the knowledge. How secret is the knowledge. Light shines in man, but how sad it is that he gropes in darkness without the grace of a Guru.''

''If education means the development of the child, if it means to make all-round improvement in the child, then my humble submission is that the knowledge of the Holy Name and Divine Light, or spiritual knowledge, is the only panacea for all ills. Nations become great and strong by individuals, and individuals become great and strong by the knowledge of the spirit. Shri Maharaj Ji's greatest contribution in this distracted world was the dissemination of that knowledge which disciplines the mind and transforms the individual.''

(4) 'Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti' http://www.manavdharam.org/shjm/1_brief_into.html

''Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj, the teacher of Manav Dharam, travels constantly to inspire and encourage others to experience this inner force which is our true essence. He reveals the same techniques of spiritual insight to all, irrespective of nationality, caste or creed. Manav Dharam encompasses the teachings of all religions and is the source of them all. It is the eternal wisdom flowing from the practical Knowledge of the Soul.''

''Man is essentially spirit, or in other words, consciousness. To know consciousness, to experience it and to realize it is the path of spiritual knowledge. Knowledge has two aspects- material and spiritual. In the material domain it is called 'Apara Vidya' and pertains to all physical and social sciences. In the spiritual domain it is called 'Para Vidya' and pertains to self-realization, the experience of the soul. Science of soul itself implies the science of universal life. The science of the spirit is a sovereign science, a sovereign secret, imperishable, supremely holy, most excellent, directly enjoyable, full of virtues and very easy to practise. It is itself both the means and the end - the immediate and the ultimate. It is all comprehensive and all-inclusive, and knowing it means nothing remains to be known. It is the saturation of the self, the merging of the individual self with the Cosmic Self. It cannot be achieved through senses, mind or intellect. It is experienced by the self through the self by the grace of the realized Master. Knowledge is the means, and Knowledge also is the destination. In Divine Knowledge there must be no duality. It is just one point.''
 * --Nik Wright2 (talk) 08:46, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
Does anyone refer to "Hans Ram Singh Rawat " or "Prem Pal Singh Rawat"? In other ways that proposal seems accurate. (Those sources may serve for other parts of the particle.)   Will Beback    talk    10:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What I meant to do was give a formula that identified the three individuals by their family name - otherwise it's a bit odd for the reader to be given the information that they are father and sons/brothers but then only to have the three individuals identified by a mixture of titular, adoptive names and family name.


 * how about:


 * The Knowledge (also Spiritual Knowledge, Divine Knowledge and Self Knowledge) was a term used by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj (Hans Rawat) to denote a formulation of four specific  meditation techniques that were imparted in a process of initiation. The term has continued to be used by two of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj’s sons, Satpal Maharaj (Satyapal Rawat) and  Prem Rawat (Maharaji,Guru Maharaj Ji). --Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Based on my research, there is a well-defined and described set of meditation practices that are known as the "techniques of Knowledge". Then, there is the much more nebulous "Knowledge", which appears to go beyond the meditation techniques and stretches into the "knowledge of God" and even less defined fields. I suggest that we should keep this article focused on the meditation techniques, with perhaps just a section on broader uses of the term "knowledge". I'm not usre that those other three terms (Spiritual Knowledge, Divine Knowledge and Self Knowledge) were ever used to refer to the mediation techniques themselves. If not, they could be discussed on that other section I proposed.   Will Beback    talk    18:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the strict definition you propose should allow avoidance of references that use any of the epithets. Self Knowledge was used extensively as a synonym for Knowledge and appears in some of the original constitution documents of the DLM and Elan Vital organisations, although I don't think any of those primary sources would clearly define the phrase as applying to the techniques only. The semantic confusion comes from the term Knowledge (plus whatever epithet)applying to both the meditation and the claimed experience that comes from employing the techniques. Focusing strictly on the 'techniques' as the article subject in the way you suggest should allow resolution of what is otherwise an inherent confusion. With the consequent distance placed between the specific Prem Rawat 'teaching',  and the 'techniques' as a general meditation practice, I wonder whether the following link could be used;  although not academically 'verifiable', what is demonstrated in the video is precisely that which other sources describe:  Also while I can see that there may be objections, I don't actually see what is wrong with using Mike Finch as a source. No one argues that he was not an intitiator for Prem Rawat and the description he gives accords with other sources: --Nik Wright2 (talk) 19:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Does that video comes from Lord of the Universe? If so then it's probably a reliable source. Regarding the lead, how about we say:
 * The techniques of Knowledge was a term used by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj (Hans Rawat) to denote a formulation of four specific  meditation techniques that were imparted in a process of initiation. The term has continued to be used by two of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj’s sons, Satpal Maharaj (Satyapal Rawat) and  Prem Rawat (Maharaji,Guru Maharaj Ji).
 * (Though it'd be better to avoid the "term used to denote" language and insteed be more direct, like TOK are four specific meditation... The term was coined by Shri Hans and has continued to be used by...) And then, add later in the text, something like:
 * Practicing these techniques is believed to lead to Spiritual Knowledge, Divine Knowledge and Self Knowledge.
 * Though I'm not sure which sources we'd have for that.   Will Beback    talk    20:22, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

(Outdent) I take the point about "term used to denote" but of course there are two disambiguation pages for   The Knowledge and  Knowledge which shows it is a term with more than one usage. Also I’m fairly certain there are no sources which attest to Hans Rawat ‘coining’ the term, and following logically from the Hans Rawat bio that says he was initiated by a teacher, then the base position must be that in the absence of any contrary evidence, the terminology used by Hans Rawat was learnt from his teacher(s), and not invented. I also think that using ‘denote’ is correct because we have no evidence that the techniques (even as a specific quartet) were unique to Hans Rawat, therefore Knowledge is what Hans Rawat called the quartet collectively – not what they uniquely are/were. Indeed, although we have no source to support this, it is obvious from the various descriptions that three of the techniques are the Shambhavi, Kechari and Yoni Mudra from any modern Hatha Yoga text. I’m not suggesting the article can say this, simply that there’s enough evidence to show that Knowledge is a ‘denotion’ not a unique formulation. Neither the specific term ‘Techniques of Knowledge’ nor even the word technique(s)  appear in either “Satgurudev  Shri Hans Ji Maharaj”, which uses the yoga specific term Kriya or in Hans Yog Prakash. ToK as term might be unique to the Prem Rawat DLM/Elan Vital era, though I doubt there are any sources that define that, in any event it would seem the article title needs to be changed either to The Knowledge (meditation techniques) or Knowledge (meditation techniques) or techniques of meditation: The Knowledge or some such.

I’m not sure about saying that practicing the techniques leads to Spiritual Knowledge (et seq); I think  the way to approach it is to go first to the “Satgurudev  Shri Hans Ji Maharaj” which provides a source close to contemporary with Hans Rawat: (below) supported with the current references from Barret and Kranenborg. The terms kriya, prana, Raj Yoga, third eye, ajapa jap, and Mahamantra can all be wikilinked to existing articles. From there I’d suggest going to the more definitive sources that have written about Divine Light Mission and Prem Rawat so that the ‘experience’ is explicitly located in the context of the DLM/Elan Vital, as that is what the sources are all referenced to – Kranenborg, Melton, Hadden, Chyssides and Hunt.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

relevant text from Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj

 * Control of the mind


 * The four Kriyas or the four-fold technique taught by Shri Hansji Maharaj furnishes the easiest method of mind control. Ordinarily, the control of the mind is a stupendous task. Many have given it up as well nigh impossible.
 * The human mind, Shri Hansji Maharaj admitted, was indeed powerful and not easy to be brought under control, but when it is harnessed to the equally powerful "Prana", it becomes easier to subjugate it.

'':Lakhs of people, who were initiated into the mysteries of the "Raj Yoga" testify how an extrovert mind can be changed to an introvert mind, bringing into view the wonderful panorama of the inner working of nature, to the aspirant. Shri Hansji Maharaj claimed, and rightly too, that the knowledge, he was thus imparting was the same, which some five thousand years back Lord Krishna imparted to Arjuna, which enabled him to comprehend the universe as an integral whole. The Vishwa-Rup (Universal consciousness) which Arjuna was shown with the help of the "Third Eye" can be seen and comprehended by any other person, provided he is told where the "Third Eye" (Gyan Chakhshu) is located and how to open it.''




 * The "Third Eye", which is situated between the two eye-brows, at the tip of the nose is a nervous plexus, where the three principal nerves of the body, namely, the Spinal Chord (Sushumna), the Ida (left sympathetic nerve) and the Pingla (right sympathetic nerve) converge, as distributory canals for the flow of the "Prana" or the life breath. This spot is directly connected with the gravitational field of the universe, and exhibits two characteristic motions - the "Prana" (Attraction) and "Apan" (Repulsion), in the shape of inhalation and exhalation. The sages of the Upanishadic period termed this vital spot the Agya Chakra, where the mind is focussed, as it provides a window to see the wonderful working of Nature in all its subtlety. That is why Agya Chakra is known as Gyan Netra or Shiva Netra.''::

and


 * Ajapa Gayatri


 * Like all his predecessors, in the long line of saints, seers, Mahatmas and prophets, who appeared on the Indian scene during its long history, Shri Hansji Maharaj discovered the mystery, behind Ajapa Gyatri, which is the essence of the Vedas, the "Ulta Jap", by whose practice Balmiki, the author of the Ramayana turned from a dacoit to a saint, "Tarak Mantra" or "Shiva Mahamantra", which Lord Shiva himself used to distribute, in Varanasi, his abode in the plains.


 * Japa, or to apply the mind uninterruptedly and without a break, to a particular object, according to the great Yogi Raj provides the only panacea for all the evils of the mind. Japa practice purifies the mind and brings it under subjugation of the aspirant.


 * But, Japa, which the Yogi Raj recommended, was unlike the one, ordinarily resorted to by a spiritua1 aspirant by means of moving beads of a glossary with the aid of fingers, or mechanically repeating a particular mantra or name of the Almighty, either loudly, or ruminating over it in mind.


 * Unlike other modes of Japa, as embodied in the scriptures, the aspirant in the practice of Ajapa Jap is simply told to confine the attention of the mind on the "Flight Of Hans" within the nasal apertures (at the top of the nose), merely as a conscious subject. "Hans" is a mysterious sound movement which is the subject matter of Para-Vani; the source of all spoken and written language and can be understood by the grace of a Satguru.


 * As author of Hans Yog Prakash, Shri Hansji Maharaj demonstrated how the practice of Ajapa Jap could kindle the Divine Light within, which dispels the ignorance of man as to the reality of his own self. For a spiritual aspirant, anxious to know the nature of the spirit that animates matter, the practice of Ajapa Jap, or Ulta Jap, Mahamantra, which are all synonymous terms, is a "must". It is beneficial not only during this life, but also in the life-beyond. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

New Lede Created
Simple lede created, plus removal of first paragraph of the origins section:

''The techniques of Knowledge were taught to Prem Rawat by his father, Hans Ji Maharaj, who learned them from Swarupanand, his teacher. The website "Maharaji.org" (1999) included the traceable story of "Masters" that according to Prem Rawat, referred to the techniques of Knowledge since 1780, including Totapuri, Anandpuri Ji, Dayal Ji, Swarupanand Ji, and his father Hans Ji Maharaj. Hans Ji founded the Divine Light Mission to further his teachings.''   The reference for this is the internet archive  as it does not appear on the current Maharaji website and is presumably not attributable as a current opinion - there's no other provenance for this 'lineage' other than Geaves. This speculative lineage would be best included in a section specific to Prem Rawat. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 10:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This looks good to me. Thanks for doing that work.   Will Beback    talk    10:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Cite needs http://www.manavdharam.org/shjm/1_brief_into.html added but the code has defeated me for the moment.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 11:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I added a cite - I hope it's what you wanted - feel free to change it.   Will Beback    talk    19:23, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. On looking at it I wonder whether that Shri Hans quote should go with the firtst two (or is three overkill ?) and http://www.manavdharam.org/ssjm/2_padyatras.html "He has a vast network of ashrams and centers where sincere aspirants can receive initiation into the Knowledge of the highest Truth." go in as a direct quote from Satpal as demonstration of his personal usage of the term "Knowledge" relative to an 'initiation' ? --Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think two sources is enough for an unextraordinary assertion. That cite may be useful elsewhere in the article.   Will Beback    talk    19:34, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Change of gender
"the techniques are universally applicable and their practice has no impact on ... a student's gender...." Is this worth saying? I doubt anybody would expect his or her gender to be changed by meditation. Unfree (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Lede
What is "lede", and why isn't it in any dictionaries? Unfree (talk) 19:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Lead misspelled, I would guess ;) --Echosmoke (talk) 13:09, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The phonetic spelling "lede" was introduced by typesetters working with lead type to differentiate the word for the introductory paragraph from the word signifying the metal, and it has remained current, even though lead type is now rarely used. For more background, see . -- JN 466  15:51, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Citations section
The floating ref tags in the "Citations" section strike me as a bit confusing. Isn't there a better way to implement this? It seems like a bit of a kludge to me... --Fru1tbat (talk) 15:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Revert edits made by 89.242.92.216
Two edits were made by this person that were not discussed on the talk page. The Rawat articles are subject to discussion before editing. Sylviecyn (talk) 16:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Descriptions section
I am from France and I work on the French Wikipedia, especially on Prem Rawat’s page.

Looking for some information I end up on this page. I’m really surprised to find a rough description of the technics of Knowledge. So, I read some of the discussions around this article and the main one, and understood there was a fight between pro and anti PR.

Anyway, I wonder what is the encyclopedic interest to reveal those technics as it is mention that it can make people confused without preparation? Does this not violate Wikipedia rules about biography of a living person? Even Melton himself said they are secret. I didn’t red his book, so I can’t make a clear statement about his intention, but it is his responsibility to pass over this rule. I don’t think Wikipedia has to take this bias, only mention that some writers did. So, I will suggest sticking in the Descriptions chapter to something like that:

''According to the Dutch religious scholar and Christian minister Reender Kranenborg and the American religious scholar J. Gordon Melton, these techniques are secret and were originally called "Light", "Sound", "Name" or "Word" and "Nectar" but Prem Rawat now refers to them as the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th techniques. Prem Rawat asks practitioners to promise "not to reveal these techniques to anyone", but says to "let other people go through their own journey... [so] they, too, can have the techniques when they are ready."''

''Kranenborg and Melton provide differing details of them in their writings but agree on a general description of the practices, referring for some of those, to tantric practices or sabda-brahman meditation. Another description including the details of the four techniques of knowledge is provided by Dr. Daniel Kriegman who describes the recruitment process utilized by the Divine Light Mission in the early 1970s.” Michael Drury, describes these techniques as helping the practitioner to develop "a deep and spiritual self-knowledge."''

It is important to notice that Knowledge has always be free of charge, but it requires a specific preparation to properly understand and take benefit of the technics. Faunus (talk) 11:20, 21 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to restore the deleted content for now, but I will note that the justification for removal of sourced content given here is completely and utterly at odds with fundamental policies of the English-language Wikipedia. AndyTheGrump (talk) 07:57, 6 July 2021 (UTC)