Talk:Ted Kennedy/Archive Quickpoll

Quickpoll
See the proposed solution above first

Addenum: Since James brought it up before: do not use this poll as a way to push POV on any side of this issue, I am just trying to see where we are so we can work to find a solution, not to promote more hostility. Thanks everyone, I appreciate all your cooperation and everything. Sasquatch &#08596;&#35762;&#08596;&#30475; 06:13, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

This is no by no means meant to be official but I just want to see where people stand on this issue, I think we all agree the original version was heavily POVed against Ted Kennedy but we can deal with wording etc. later.

Basically, I want to see we who supports the inclusion of the information about The Palm Beach rape trial. Please write comments elsewhere, this is just so I know where we are at right now. Please sign your vote and do not try to alter it by voting more than once, one person, one vote, simple as that. Again, this is not official but I just want to know where this is at right now. Sasquatch &#08596;&#35762;&#08596;&#30475; 02:48, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * This is fun. Now we have editors messaging other editors trying to hustle up votes. Voting is evil. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 04:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Eviler than I intended... Do they not understand this is not official and purely for my benefit to see how far we need to go on this thing? Anyways, the good news is now we have a summary of everybody's stance on the issue and can now begin to work on a solution without pointless mudslinging which, I am ashamed to say, I may have participated in, but I guess we're all guilty of something ;-) Sasquatch &#08596;&#35762;&#08596;&#30475; 04:28, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Include

 * 1) Include. Though, the trial should be mentioned in a VERY brief and NPOV manner, probably a sentence or two. Though, the section on the trial seemed to be written by a 2 year old monkey POVer.Voice of All(MTG) 02:51, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Include, perhaps two or three sentences in a longer section that includes in the cocaine and popper use, and other self-defeating character flaws.--Silverback 03:04, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Strong Include. Ted Kennedy's bio should be complete, warts and all. The paragraph in dispute is noteworthy, accurate, and should be included as written. Ted Kennedy was at the center of the most widely publicized rape trial in US history and his role should not be whitewashed.--Agiantman 03:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Include. Redwolf24 03:45, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Include. Perhaps the left could write 4 lines and the right could right 4, neither could argue the content of the other Thank you  24.147.97.230 03:53, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) Include, but no more than a sentence or two, with a link to the appropriate article where the trial is actually discussed. And, yes, (1) I would certainly think the article on G.W. Bush should discuss his drinking and alleged drug use when young and (2) this article should, similarly, mention both Kennedy's drinking in the past and the fact that he stopped. This article from The Nation, hardly unsympathetic to Kennedy, talks about his heavy drinking in the 1980s and the fact that, of all people, Orrin Hatch was apparently instrumental in him getting sober. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:26, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * 7) Include. Ted Kennedy testified at the trial. Be careful it is not worded to sound anti-Ted Kennedy. though. Banes 13:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 8) Include. Kennedy's involvement in that trial had an impact on his effectiveness in the Thomas confirmation (he was quite quiet) and on his reelection in 1994. This was well noted in the media at the time. That is why it is relevant.  NoSeptember  15:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Include. Kennedy's involvement in that trial had an impact on his effectiveness in the Thomas confirmation (he was quite quiet) and on his reelection in 1994. This was well noted in the media at the time. That is why it is relevant.  NoSeptember  15:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Exclude

 * 1) Unless someone provides a persuasive & NPOV way to mention this, perhaps as part of a larger para. on his family or whatever, I'm inclined to say exclude.  At best this deserves a sentence. Gamaliel 02:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) Strong Exclude in absence of answer to my questions above.   Robert McClenon 03:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC) Exclude in this article; include in article about people actually involved. --BaronLarf 03:12, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Exclude, other than a sentence. It's just not that important, when stripped of POV. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 03:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 4) Exclude -- not a paragraph, not a sentence, not a wikilink. Also, while I understand Sasquatch's wanting to get an idea of the overall lay of the land, I would protest the use of this poll for any other purpose, for multiple reasons. JamesMLane 05:56, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) Exclude -- also exclude from this article any references to sexual molestation by Kennedy's cousin Arnold Schwarzeneggar. Gzuckier 14:01, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Comments
Every time I think this discussion has hit bottom, we manage to plumb a new low. Apparently Silverback is now suggesting that an encyclopedia article can characterize Kennedy's private life as "scandalous" and yet be perfectly consistent with NPOV. JamesMLane 06:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Could you can the ad hominem stuff. And stating your argument with hyperbole and sarcasm doesn't make it any stronger.--Silverback 06:16, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's ad hominem if it's about you personally. It's not ad hominem if it's about the merits of a passage you suggest or an argument you make, as the preceding comment of mine is.  While I sometimes use sarcasm or hyperbole, the particular comment above contains neither.  I made those statements as stark literal truth. JamesMLane 06:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Earlier you accused me of hating Ted Kennedy, and here you state I took the argument to a new low. How do those advance your arguments? They do seem to be an ad hominen attempt to dismiss the arguments. While I think Ted Kennedy is a mass murderer like most politicians and most voters who have voted for them (my past self included), I don't hate him. I find him a sympathetic and tragic figure, who probably has had a lot of fun that I would like to have had (wow man!), and a lot of tragedy I wouldn't wish on anybody.  I am glad he seems to be turning his life around. --Silverback 08:27, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not voting on this....what are we going to say about it? Until someone comes up with how the wording is to be, with options of how the wording best fits NPOV, then I abstain. Furthermore, this is a discussion page...start discussing what the wording will be, and....someone needs to address the complete lack of information that this article needs to really become encyclopedic...right now it looks more like the only thing the guy has done is be involved in manslaughter, rape and drinking....has he done anything as a Senator...of course he has. However, I do agree that some mention of the rape trial needs to be in here...albeit brief for sure. But then get going on the rest of the story.--MONGO 07:17, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * See the Proposed Solution and Finalized Proposal above. That's what we're trying to get passed. Sasquatch &#08596;&#35762;&#08596;&#30475; 18:27, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Kennedy testified at the trial: So what?
Yes, he testified, but the reiteration of this fact as a mantra is no substitute for thought.

In a civil case, it's common for many points to be agreed on before the trial. There's a detailed complaint and answer, the major witnesses are deposed in advance, and the parties can exchange "Requests for Admission" so that they don't have to waste time proving points that aren't in dispute.

In a criminal case, however, those mechanisms aren't available. The prosecution, which must establish the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, needs to win a jury verdict and see the verdict survive any appeal. To those ends, the prosecution will take care to introduce sufficient evidence to support a finding against the defendant on each point. If the prosecution gets careless and doesn't prove something that's necessary, then there's a possibility that the case will be dismissed after the prosecution rests, without the defense having to present any testimony or other evidence at all. The key is that the prosecution can't rely on an expectation that the defendant will admit (or not deny) certain points. The case against the defendant must be made from the ground up; the record, as of the time the prosecution rests, must be sufficient to support a conviction.

From what I've read about this case, I get the impression that these facts were undisputed: Smith was at the bar or nightclub with his uncle and his cousin. There, he met Bowman. He and Bowman went back to the Kennedy estate. Later, when they were out on the beach some distance from the house, they had sex. Smith said it was consensual, Bowman said it wasn't. Kennedy was in the house and nowhere near the couple when the act occurred.

Now, if I were the prosecutor handling that case, I'd call Ted Kennedy and Patrick Kennedy as witnesses to establish that Smith and Bowman left the nightclub together. It's just a routine aspect of making the necessary record.

If, as I'm guessing, Kennedy was testifying to undisputed facts, then on what basis can his participation in the trial be said to be a notable event in his life? Instead of endlessly repeating that he testified, does anyone care to provide any information about the substance of his testimony, to show that it was at all important? The mere fact that he happened to be sitting in the bar when Smith and Bowman first met doesn't seem like a big deal to me. JamesMLane 14:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * My last comment on the issue. I don't like seeing Wikipedia being used as a political blog by the left or the right to protect or attack articles on those biographed they either support are in opposition to...I know I have been guilty of this myself, so I state that as a reminder to me as well. Anyway, the only argument I have as to why a short statement in regards to the WKSmith trail is relevent is for the vary reasons you stated above...Teddy DID in fact testify in the trial...the alledged events happened right there on the Kennedy property, Kennedy was a prime witness for the defense...in comparison to the three events mentioned in contrast to the GWB article, Bush apparently had no involvement with his brother's banking situation...zero involvement that has been proven, Laura Bush was never charged with a violent crime...GWBush apparently never testified on her behalf and that was apparently just a terrible accident. The twins underage drinking may show poor parenting by GWBush but again, no violent crime was commited and they harmed no one. Besides, they are just doing the teenage thing.--MONGO 20:30, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Kennedy's involvement in that trial had an impact on his effectiveness in the Thomas confirmation (he was quite quiet) and on his reelection in 1994. This was well noted in the media at the time. That is why it is relevant.  NoSeptember  15:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * OK....  "Kennedy was widely attacked as a hypocrite - his own personal life less than sterling - for taking a leading role as a defender of Anita Thomas against accused sexual harasser Clarence Thomas." "During the day, Sen. Kennedy was ranting against Thomas's confirmation."  Gzuckier 20:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree with JamesMclane, he testified at the trial, "so what"? If that was all there was too it, it wouldn't be notable. The notability, comes from the fact that once again his private escapades, and personal morality (or lack there of) made a big and negative splash on the public scene, and sworn testimony, seemed to confirm the swarmy rumors and innuendo that always had followed him. Frankly this was a mere scandal, but he is as famous for the scandals as his is for his work as a politician, in fact, the scandals may dominate his legacy. The mere mention of testifying at the trial, does not capture the notability, in fact, it is probably not his testimony, but the testimony of others at the trial, and evidence that became public but was not even admitted at the trial that make it notable for our encyclopedic purposes.--Silverback 23:55, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that there is any way to get in the morality questioning of Edward Kennedy during the trial. I don't know if HE was the target of it, maybe just his brother was. I can find VERY few sources that even mention the trial, and NONE that I can use to cite criticism of Edward Kennedy.Voice of All(MTG) 00:08, August 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * You can't expect to find news stories about that to still be on the web, this is what encyclopedias and biographies are about, preserving this stuff after it is no longer news, but merely part of a person's development and legacy.--Silverback 03:45, August 9, 2005 (UTC)