Talk:Teen escort company/Archive 1

POV
I added "and may result in permanent trauma". You want a study? I don't have one. All I have is fifteen years of nightmares. To call "stress" a neutral term is laughable. Getting assaulted at knifepoint is also stressful. Considerably less so than this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.53.235.72 (talk) 17:18, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The article does not seem to have a neutral viewpoint, and the sources quoted seem biased and ideological. Zygnus 16:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's not a single citation in the article to a Reliable Source. That's a serious problem. Fan-1967 15:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Both arguments before and against the use of such companies are displayed
Some subject are hard to argument positive for. I can not find a single good argument for Nazi concentrations camps. Despite that fact wikipedia deserve to have an article about Nazi consentration camps.

It is the same with Teen escort companies. They exist because some one else simply does not want to do their job. It is an evil business that is outlawed in most civilized countries.

And yet: Researching hard on the internet may have produced positive arguments for the existence of such companies. I have produced both for's and angainst's. It is as close to NPOV it could get.

So try to leave them there while I produce links to testamonies for every point of abuse listed in the article. They exist. I am scanning ISACORP, cafety and Teenlibery - watch organisations to find the testamonies.

Covergaard 18:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It would really help if links could be produced that are actually from neutral third-party sources, rather than claiming to be. Saying that the sources are newspaper articles is not the same thing as actually providing links to newspapers. The articles on the isaccorp site look like reprints, but no actual source is given. One has no original source indicated at all; the other is attributed to a "News 10 Now Web Staff". How many channel 10's are there? Which one is it? If this came from a (presumably copyrighted) news site, how is it being reproduced here without proper attribution or copyright notice? This sort of citation certainly fails the Reliable Source test. Fan-1967 19:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe someone's tried to sue them
The article mentions a difference between European and United States laws and one of the links has a reference to gray areas of law. I'm wondering if research about cases might help with finding stronger pro arguments. Or perhaps some law enforcement agencies have opinions more detailed than a reporter would care to quote. To reveal my own bias on this: I mean, come on, pepper-spraying a minor has gotta violate something, so if these companies are still operating (and advertising), they must have some fairly convincing reasons why.

I'd be willing to try hunting some pro-arguments down (from someplace besides the companies' websites), but I have a very poor record with understanding legal websites, so someone else might be better suited for that... Sadimac 06:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No joy on finding lawsuits, but there is a bill in committee (committees, actually) in congress. I'm going to try to add the link to it in news. And then go look for Wikipedia guidelines on linking to bills in case I did it wrong (backwards, I know). Of course, that won't help with neutrality, but if the committees discuss it or take testimony, it might eventually. Sadimac 16:10, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * decided to put it under viewpoints Sadimac 16:22, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Updated to try to make more neutral
I've updated and edited the article to take out the more inflammatory/biased language, and to separate standard procedures (which a reader may or may not agree with ethically, but is standard) from the abuses that most everyone would agree is abusive and inappropriate. 19 Feb. 2007

In the news section is missing
It is difficult for people to know, what they are reading about, if the article does not display info about incidents involving companies, when they are in the news. I have found three good sources and have tried to add them to the article, but it seems to be impossible for some to understand what the line of business is about and therefore they automaticly revert it.

A common slang expression for the use of this kind of service is "Goober-napping": A typical example of such a transport was portraited in a price winning article in Legal Affairs: Another common incident in relationship with a transport made headlines in march 2004 when a police officers witness it. The incident resulted in a FBI investigation:
 * Inside The Academy by Vic Vela, (Canon City Daily Record, March 7 2007)
 * WANT YOUR KID TO DISAPPEAR? by Nadya Labi, Legal Affairs, July 2004.
 * Teen Escort service members charged with assault by Kristin Smith, News10, March 2004

Why are these articles considered biased?

Covergaard 08:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

January 2008
I have close familiarity with this kind of service. I have no problem with the content of the article. I do have objection to the single reference being a very strong article from a clearly non-neutral point of view. I don't claim that this article is irresponsible -- this is a conscientiously researched point of view. However it is not the only responsible point of view. Aspen Education http://www.aspeneducation.com/ has commissioned a study done by Ellen Behrens, PhD http://canyonrc.com/experience.html that shows 80% improvement --- unmatched by any other modality of intervention. That is one possible reference that is contrary to the sole reference. I did not change the article but it does need balance. The comparison to Nazi Concentration Camps is ludicrous and has no relation to the reality of the situation. 70.90.220.214 (talk) 00:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The comment about Nazi concentration camps is not part of the article and was not proposed for inclusion in the article. Since this page is for talking about the article, not for arguing about the topic of the article, there's no point in discussing the "Nazi" comment.
 * As for the reference, it is cited in this article as a source because it includes one paragraph that contains factual information about teen escort companies. Since the subject of the article is teen escort companies (not behavior modification facilities, wilderness therapy programs, boot camps, or therapeutic boarding schools), the remainder of the reference (i.e., the part you consider unbalanced) is not relevant to this article. However, if you have additional reliable sources that would provide good information about teen escort companies, please tell us about them; this article would benefit from additional sources. --Orlady (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The missing Denmark section
What was wrong this this section? It is quiet a new thing here in Denmark. Firms can be hired to remove a kid from his home or the street, if the parents feel that a unethic peer group would reduce his or her social status. It is very important in Denmark where possible success is based on the social status of the parents rather than talent or hard work.

Instead of a therapeutic boarding school which is something they have in the US, the firm transport the kid to a cabin where another firm takes over going through a behavior modification process with the kid.

There are differences in how they work. A number of the restraints used in the States require permission from the police, so they cannot use it. But basically they are doing the same and because some of the parties in parliament fear that they could be used by religious organizations, they want this area covered by the public sector only.

Second they cannot use Group homes or Continuation schools because the child is protected an UN convention. A hearing would set the child free at once.

However they are transporting kids to a place for behavior modification. I feel that this section belongs in this article despite the fact the cultural differences make their work a little different. Covergaard (talk) 14:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Covergaard, as I indicated in the edit summaries, I removed the Denmark section after I discovered that the contents were not supported by the sources cited. At first, some of the online sources were not responding, so I accepted them on good faith. When I finally was able to read all of the sources, I realized that they described something completely different from the subject of this article. The U.S. teen escort companies are solely in the business of transport. What you have in Denmark appear to be businesses that intercept the child, take them to a secluded cabin, and conduct some sort of intervention program to end their involvement in gangs. (This is what I recall from reading the articles yesterday.) The intervention programs in Denmark probably are something like the U.S. "wilderness" programs, meaning that they are short-term interventions whose alleged effectiveness is based in large part on (1) the shock of being removed from a familiar environment and (2) the strangeness and isolation of the new environment. None of the cited Danish sources talked about the transport of the youth.


 * The text that I removed is, of course, still available in the edit history. This probably is a topic for a separate article. --Orlady (talk) 15:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The industry is yet not so developed in Denmark, so they have not long-term programs. I have to remind that the earliest cases in the States was in the early 70's. Barbara Walters daughter was detained by a former marine, when she was taken to CEDU. The Danish firms were started in the 1990s. In Denmark the youth also have rights to talk to a social worker and our version of the Nebraska laws work both way. The child can also ask to be a foster care kid and in most cases it means establishing an independent living plan around aged 16. It makes private long-term program impossible unless they get the kid out of the country, but then the parents can be arrested. Several parents are in jail because they have send their kids to therapeutic boarding schools in the middle east. However the transport firms in Denmark are doing the same as in the states. The transport firm - usually a branch of a security firm - transport the kid to a cabin where the staff from a short term intervention program takes over. Covergaard (talk) 05:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't dispute the truth of what you say, but as far as Wikipedia is concerned it is original research. It is not verifiable. The material about Denmark that you included in this article was not supported by the references that were cited. --Orlady (talk) 14:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)