Talk:Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Turtles in Time

Remake in the works?
http://ninja-pizza.blogspot.com/2009/05/new-turtles-in-time-game.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.15.93 (talk) 05:17, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

False Information in Article
"The voices of the characters in the cutscenes and their voice-over comments in the game were done mostly by the same voice actors as in the TV series. The most important exception is the voice of Shredder. James Avery did not reprise his role in the game, and the character was instead voiced by Jim Cummings, a regular additional voice on the show."

This is actually not the least bit true, and should be deleted from the article. Absolutely none of the voice actors from any of the AMerican Ninja Turtles series, cartoon, movie or otherwise were done for the voiceovers of either the Arcade or SNES port of Turtles in time. All of them sound absolutely nothing like any of the voices.

In the arcade and SNES ports (Of which I have both), feature the turtles all as the same generic, uncredited voice actor that has a nasally "turtley" voice for each of the four Turtles (They are all the same) and the rest are all generic voice overs artists recorded specifically for the game. Additionally, none of the bosses with Vocal samples in the arcade, such as Krang, Shredder, Baxter, and Leatherhead are voiced by any of the voice actors from the cartoon, and what's more they all sound drastically different from any version of them that had been voiced in any animated form. In fact, Leatherhead's voice in the arcade in which he says "Oh goodie, Fresh Turtles For Lunch" is the exact same deep voiced video game voice over artist that delivered Shredder's "I'm banishing you to a time warp from which you will never return" line (He also sounds absolutely nothing like Jim Cummings. Rather it sounded like a cheap James Earl Jones imitation.)

I actually have both the ROM's of the Arcade system for MAME as well as the Turtles In Time cartridge for SNES, so I can verify what i'm saying. The person who wrote this information in the paragraph I've called to attention was guessing and has added false information that doesn't appear to be true and was added without any references or research. If he had researched it, he would find that he was wrong. Therefore, I think the entire passage from above should be deleted from the article. In hindsight, it's a really silly mistake to even print it into Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by UltimateZeroX (talk • contribs) 20:00, August 28, 2007 (UTC)


 * With all due respect to what you think the voices sound like in your pirated ROM and MAME versions of the game, IMDB does list the voice actors of the game, and a quick check will confirm that they are the same as in the cartoon. -- Ritchy 01:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * IMDB can be, and is often, wrong, as it relies somewhat on user input. Bloodshedder 02:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

- And Wikipedia differs from that how, exactly? 77.185.3.171 (talk) 14:28, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

- in the "home versions" section:  "In addition, the throw and slam moves can now be performed intentionally, instead of just randomly." ?? in the arcade version, a button masher might make the throw or slam moves accidentally, but they absolutely "can be performed intentionally" at any time. in fact a few paragraphs up it says you have to throw in order to beat shredder. so maybe this is just worded poorly but it is either confusing or false. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.70.18.89 (talk) 13:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Four players, or Six?
As a child I remember having a TMNT arcade machine that was two-screens and up to six players simultaniously. I recalled it was this game and others agree there were versions of the machine like this. The article does not mention it. Are we remembering wrong?
 * I'm afraid you're remembering wrong. Although I remember two-screened arcade games with more than four players, I don't remember a TMNT one. At any rate, the instruction manual of the arcade mentions numerous times that there is a maximum of four players, most notably on page 5 "Play Instructions", where it says that "1 to 4 players can play at the same time". Furthermore, the pictures of the arcade cabinet on KLOV clearly show only one screen and four joysticks. Sorry -- Ritchy 03:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Besides, where would you get six Turtles? Bloodshedder 10:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The arcade game your refering to in the X-Men game that was also produced by Konami. That came in both standard single screen cabinet version for two players and two-screen cabinet version for six players. Sarujo (talk) 10:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Typo
"Burn My Shell At Wounded Knee"? Shouldn't that be "Bury My Shell..."? Can anyone confirm?
 * You are quite right. That was a typo in the title. --Ritchy 00:21, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Start class
We rated as a start class article :(

For reference, here are the best (i.e. former feature articles) videogame articles in Wikipedia. That's what this page should look like. I'll list them here for quick and easy reference in the future: 3D Monster Maze, Donkey Kong (arcade game), Doom, Final Fantasy X, Half-Life 2, Katamari Damacy, Perfect Dark, StarCraft, Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. -- Ritchy 14:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Judging from these, we could use more info on the development of the game, critical reception, technical information (mostly about the arcade), and a comparison with the previous TMNT arcade game (too bad that article isn't quite done yet). The gameplay section could be padded a little, too. -- Ritchy 01:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, the "Level, boss, level, boss" format is very FAQy and contains a lot of copied prose "Boss: X. He has N health bars. Before the battle he says "Y". He attacks by doing Z. After the battle, the Turtles do XYZ, etc etc." There isn't a whole lot in there that's worthwhile. Nifboy 05:31, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess we could just keep the level descriptions, and make a table for the bosses. That would allow for quick comparison between all three ports of the game. It'll cut what the bosses say, their energy bars and their attacks, but that's not really interesting. And relevant trivia about the bosses can be put after the table. -- Ritchy 16:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The Hyperstone Heist
I think the Genesis game is different enough to warrant its own article. Bloodshedder 16:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree, for two reasons. First, because it is a console port of Turtles in Time. A lot of what's in that game is better explained in relation to Turtles in Time rather than as a game on its own. And second, there just isn't much to say about it that isn't already in this article. Taking the Hyperstone Heist section from this article and putting it on its own would make a very short article - almost a stub. I think it's better off remaining a section of a bigger, more complete article. -- Ritchy 17:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * But the game is laid out very differently (as Bloodshedder's chart from below shows), has a different plot (not that this means too much in these classic beat-em-ups) and most importantly, has a different title, which means the publishers themselves claim it a distinct work. If anything, putting Hyperstone Heist on the same page as Turtles in Time would possibly be original research, as I had _never_ seen anyone claim that it was a translation of Turtles in Time until I came upon this page. While Konami may have been lazy in designing the game and recycled a lot of Turtles in Time, Hyperstone Heist is a different game, and deserves its own article --oknazevad 07:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not my chart, it's Ritchy's; that's just a comment I made about it. But I agree with what you are saying otherwise. A separate article about Hyperstone Heist could simply say "XYZ here is very similar to ABC in Turtles in Time", which would avoid unnecessary duplication of information. Right now, the Hyperstone Heist section is like an article within another article - the introduction could easily be rewritten if the section is moved to a separate article. If the "Genesis port of the game fundamentally changed the levels, and features a unique boss line-up" (taken directly from the article), is it really a port and not a separate game in itself? Bloodshedder 10:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You know, I'm starting to agree with you guys. Since my last objection, the page has gone through a complete remake, and Hyperstone Heist doesn't quite fit in anymore - it's become "an article within an article", as Bloodshedder said. Of my two main objections, the one that there wasn't enough material to make a whole page is no longer true, and the one that it would be better explained in relation to Turtles in Time doesn't really prevent the creation of a page. So I've moved all the material to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: The Hyperstone Heist. -- Ritchy 15:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Boss Table
It could look something like this. The problem, as you can see, is that, while we have a pretty good correspondance between the Arcade and SNES version, the Genesis version is very different. This means the levels won't be in the right order, and won't match exactly. Anyone has suggestions on how to improve it?

The interesting trivia about the bosses comes after the table. These three points are the only really interesting things I've found in the article. Is there anything else worth being included?

Prototype
Trivia frame|center|Arcade-version Shredder (left), SNES Super-Shredder (center) and Mega Drive/Genesis Super-Shredder (right).
 * The battle against Shredder in his battle tank is unique for three reasons. First, the view changes from a side-view to a third-person view from Shredder's perspective. Second, an endless number of purple or pink Foot Soldiers, depending on the difficulty setting, walk in to attack the Turtles during the battle. Third, the Turtles cannot attack Shredder directly. Instead, they must grab the Foot Soldiers and throw them at the battle tank to damage it.
 * Cement Man is a monster that was brought to life by Baxter in the episode Curse of the Evil Eye and was never seen afterwards.
 * In the arcade version, the Turtles face Shredder in the final battle. In the SNES and Genesis version, Shredder mutates himself into Super-Shredder (as he did in the movie Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles II: The Secret of the Ooze) by using some kind of mutagen ray.

Prototype B
This one separates the two TiT and HH:


 * I like this better, as it is much more readable. Bloodshedder 02:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am confused as to why it people seem to think there is no boss in the arcade version of 'Sewer Surfin'. At the end of the level you are left in a fixed part of the level and forced to fight off numerous monsters from the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1987 TV series) episode Attack of the Killer Pizzas surely this counts as a boss? I mean if it doesn't then wouldn't say, the first boss of Splatterhouse not count either?

I have been bold and changed it, if this is unacceptable please change back - Dwitefry - 9/1/08
 * The pizza monsters are not a boss, they are normal enemies that the player encounters throughout the level. The fact the player cannot move forward doesn't make it a boss; there are several sections in every level where the player cannot move forward and assorted enemies attack him. Moreover, the pizza monsters do not fit the "boss" pattern of the game: they do not have the boss music, they do not yell something as they walk on-screen, and they do not have a lot of energy or flash red before dieing. Finally, the SNES version of the game also includes the numerous pizza monster attack you mentioned, and yet the boss of the level is Rat King, thus clearly confirming that the game designers do not intend these monsters to be a boss. -- Ritchy (talk) 15:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

B-Class
I feel the article qualifies as a B-Class. A Start-class article discusses only one of the many subtopics of the article, while this one covers several subtopics. It is therefore above Start-class. It has, in fact, a majority of the information needed - a qualification for B-class. It is however lacking in some domains, notably references. Hence, it cannot be above B-class. -- Ritchy 03:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Green-Foot Soldiers=Robin Hood
There has been an edit war over whether saying the green Foot Soldiers with bow & arrow were inspired by Robin Hood. I say this is a conclusion drawn from primary materials, which is pretty much the definition of original research. See No original research section about no original theories. There is a counter-claim that primary research is okay for cultural references and cites American Dad! and Family Guy as precedent. However, I don't believe this is valid as those are much more explicit in their references, so no conclusions need be drawnand there are many fan sites that could be cited. Moreover, other pages doing it or not is irrelevant as there are already guidelines on the issue. Can anyone else weigh in and hopefully prevent more reverts? Ace of Sevens 05:36, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Our disagreement is that it is a theory reaching an original conclusion. Pointing out that something (in this case, a green archer Foot Soldier) has similarities to something else (a green archer folk hero) and is a reference to it is not research, it is simply pointing out a fact in the data we're writing an article about. You say it's ok to do it in some article (American Dad! and Family Guy are two examples, but these kinds of references are present in most TV shows and movie pages) because they are "more explicit". First of all, I have to disagree with that statement. While some references are certainly more explicit, some are much more subtle - take for example the references and links drawn in the American Pie (song) page. And second, where do you draw the line? How do you say, "this reference is explicit enough to be mentioned, but this one isn't explicit enough and constitutes original research"? Finally, though it is not central to the argument, I have to ask: since when are fan sites accepted as a source? The Internet is so large, we could find fan sites saying anything. In fact, I could make a fan site right now saying anything I want it to say. How could this ever be considered a reliable source?
 * Also, I removed the duplicate entry you put up. I didn't see any difference with this one; it seemed to be an incomplete prototype of this post. If I missed something in it and it really was important, please let me know. -- Ritchy 21:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't simply state that they look similar, but that it is "a tribute to Robin Hood". This implies that the developers deliberately made the archers resemble Robin Hood in order to show an acknowledgment of gratitude, respect or admiration towards him. This is not a simple conclusion, but Original Research - unless you find a source to prove that.--Neg 14:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Very well, I've changed the wording to "they appear similar to Robin Hood". Does that please everyone? -- Ritchy 15:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's better. But the ultimate question is: Why mention it at all? Is it really relevant here? ;) --Neg 15:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Pictures
I'm thinking this article needs better pictures. The text should be illustrated with pictures from the arcade version whenever possible, with the SNES/Genesis pictures used only for things that didn't exist in the arcade. That said, we'd need: Anyone can suggest other pictures that could be useful to add to the article? -- Ritchy 15:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) A picture of a group of multi-coloured Foot Soldiers (arcade, for the enemy section)
 * 2) A picture of some of the levels (arcade, for the levels section)
 * 3) A picture of the mode-7 "Neon Nightriders" (SNES, for the SNES section, possibly with a shot of the arcade level for comparison)
 * 4) New pics of Shredder for the group picture (arcade and genesis, the current ones were taken from websites)
 * 5) We can keep an SNES picture of the Technodrome level in the levels section
 * 6) The Tokka & Rahzar and Baxter Stockman pictures, as well as the (currently unused) animated pics of the turtles, can be moved to a gallery at the end of the article.


 * I'll try to find some of those. But I did find profiles of all the turtles from the arcade game. TMNT Donatello 17:52, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "you found"? You do know we can't just google up pictures and put them in Wikipedia, right? There's copyrights and all that... -- Ritchy 20:06, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well actually, I took them myself. I wasn't really thinking there, sorry about that. TMNT Donatello 21:56, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination
This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 24, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:


 * 1. Well written?: Pass
 * 2. Factually accurate?: Pass
 * 3. Broad in coverage?: Fail
 * 4. Neutral point of view?: Pass
 * 5. Article stability? Pass
 * 6. Images?: Almost pass

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far.

Additional comments : Lincher 21:59, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Levels and Enemies sections should comply with the out-of-universe criteria that WP requires and it is also a requirement for GA.
 * The Trivia section should be removed and items that are necessarily notable or useful to create section should be added to the text.
 * Also, the picture gallery isn't really necessary on the article page, just linking to it is just as fine for the people interested in seeing these picture move.

Corrections prior to resubmission

 * The picture gallery was removed, and replaced with a link to a category page containing all the pictures. Compare. -- Ritchy 16:46, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Levels section was re-written with a stronger out-of-universe perspective. Compare. -- Ritchy 17:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Trivia section was removed, and the information was integrated into relevant sections of the article. Compare. -- Ritchy 18:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The image captions were made more descriptive. Compare. -- Ritchy 18:01, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Enemies section was rewrote with a stronger out-of-universe perspective, and without a lot of the unnecessary FAQ information (i.e. "this enemies attacks in this manner, the Turtles can defend by doing that"). Compare. -- Ritchy 01:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A new Soundtrack section was added to broaden the coverage of the article. Here. -- Ritchy 19:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The Levels and Enemies section were re-written as prose rather than lists. Compare. -- Ritchy 00:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Mutant Nightmare Version?
I just realized we have very little info on the version of this game on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 3: Mutant Nightmare. We know the music was changed and the score counter was taken off, but what else? Was the Technidrome: Let's Kick Shell! in it? Did the special attacks cost you energy like in the SNES version? Were the bosses from the SNES or Arcade version? I've never played Mutant Nightmare myself, and there is little info the this version of the game in this article, so maybe we should add some more info to this version in this article. TMNT Donatello 08:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Judging by the screenshots in the Gamespy review, which humorously only has them of Turtles in Time and not Mutant Nightmare, the unlockable appears to be ported straight from the arcade version, except for the changes you mentioned (music, score, which I don't have firsthand knowledge of). Bloodshedder 09:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm...thought there might be a little more to it...well, maybe there is, that review didn't have much info on it. TMNT Donatello 16:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

"Plot"
Now that the section named "Plot" is in an out-of-universe perspective and includes the attract-mode information, I feel the title "Plot" is not fully appropriate. But I can't think of a good new name. Something along the lines of "Introduction and plot" or "Introduction and setting" or something like that. Does anyone have a suggestion? -- Ritchy 19:43, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Never mind. I solved the problem when I moved the attract-mode information in the new "soundtrack" section. -- Ritchy 01:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Development
Most GA and FA about games have a development section. For this game however, I can't find any information about development. Does anyone know where we can get anything? -- Ritchy 01:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I have tons of game websites on my userpage. You could take a look there.--Clyde Miller 01:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Soundtrack
The section is a little meager. Anyone can think of something else to add? -- Ritchy 01:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, this isn't much, but maybe we could add some info as shown here on one of the sources. Here, all the users are talking about the music in the game and it being replaced by new music. I guess there's not much there but complaining, but you might find something of interest. TMNT Donatello 20:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I've seen this thread, but I was a little reluctant at the idea of using it. It is, after all, little more than fan opinions. The first post mentions that the soundtrack was changed, which would be a good information to add to the article if it's true. Unfortunately, all we have is the poster's word for it, and as anyone who frequents Internet forums knows, that's a less-than-reliable source. If we could find an official site saying that the soundtrack of the game was changed, we could add that one, and link to the forum for fan reactions on the change. But using the forum as the only source of information... there must be something more reliable. -- Ritchy 20:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I found the reference I wanted. Info added. -- Ritchy 18:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The section is starting to look good. If someone can find more info that would be great. We also need ideas on how to write the text more interesting to read and less like a boring list of facts. -- Ritchy 21:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Turtle characteristics
Under the "Gameplay" heading it says  Donatello has slower attacks but a longer range, Michelangelo and Raphael have fast attacks but a short range, and Leonardo is a well-rounded Turtle with average range and speed. 

This is true only for the arcade version. The SNES version is different- Michelangelo has the slowest attack in the SNES version, not Donatello, although Michelangelo has the strongest attack. Donatello's main drawback is his slow walking speed, whereas Raphael walks very quickly. This is mentioned in the SNES instruction booklet.


 * That's right. The "Gameplay" section is about the arcade version, as is most of the article in fact, except where it explicitly says otherwise. The SNES Turtles' characteristics that you described in your post are already included in the "Gameplay differences" sub-section of the section regarding the SNES version of the game. -- Ritchy 22:10, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Question regarding the lists
I had a discussion at the GA project talk page, Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_candidates whether the current lists of enemies and of levels is appropriate for a Wikipedia article. I'd like some feedback from the writers of this article. I'll post a request for feedback at the WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games, asking them to reply here.

Fred-Chess 16:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, as far as I can tell, the lists do not violate WWIN nor the guidelines in SoI. So the question we're pondering is not "is it allowed to be here", but rather "is it encyclopedic and useful". On that question, I'd say "yes". IMO, these two sections contain information of general interest, useful to anyone who wants to learn about this game.
 * From my perspective, the test to pass to know if the information should stay is to answer two questions, first "would someone with only a passing interest in the game want to know this, or is it just for dedicated players", and second "would someone have a good and complete understanding of the game without this information". To take a typical example, putting in button combinations for special moves fails this test: no one cares about this information unless they are currently playing the game and are trying to pull off the move, and it is quite possible to get a complete picture of the game without knowing which button to press when to make a move. On the other hand, I believe the lists pass this test. The levels, especially the time-travel ones, were one of the game's key selling points (see the article's "Critical response" section for details), and the article would not be complete if it did not discuss them. The enemies are also an important part of the game and worth discussing. The TMNT franchise in all its incarnations has always been about the Turtles fighting someone else, and thus in my opinion ignoring the "someone else" would weaken the article. I do recognise that the Enemies section contains more details than is needed for a reader with only a passing interest in the game to understand the game (I'm thinking of the colour-weapon matching in particular), but it is still a far cry from player-only material. I'd say it's more suited for someone who wants in-depth details about the game, which is not a bad thing in and of itself.
 * Overall, I'd say that the information contained in those lists is appropriate for Wikipedia. But I am a biased source, for having spent so much time working on the article ;)
 * -- Ritchy 18:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The lists are very unencyclopedic, and I would not pass this for GA because of it.  Having one or two paragraphs discussing the variety of levels or enemies is one thing, but a list of each level and it characteristics (filled with OR, by the way) or a list of every enemy type in the game is completely out of place.  Basically, WP:NOT a game guide.  These sections are literally a guide to playing the game, with what levels there are and what enemies you face, with what weapons they have.  I agree with you that they are important to the game, just that they should be turned into much less detailed prose paragraphs.  --PresN 02:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Filled with OR? Could you please explain? That would be a genuine problem... -- Ritchy 02:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

All input so far has said that the list of levels should be turned into prose. I'm inclined to agree with that! As you said, Ritchy, the levels have been refered to by critics, so that it is important to mention them. Yet they are better described in a coherent story.

When it comes to the enemies, it is my opinion that certain information is like trivia since I don't see how they would interesting for anyone not playing the game. I think that a general section on "Food soldiers" would suffice. I suggest that it would contains something like this:

''The majority of enemies encountered in the game are Foot Soldiers. These soldiers wear a different uniform colour depending on if they are unarmed or if they carry a weapon. Weapons they might carry include blade weapons, such as a katana, sai or battle axe; tonfa or shuriken; daggers; nunchakus; boomerangs, bombs; or bow and arrows.''

The unarmed (purple ) foot soldiers can have different entry methods, including riding on velociraptors and being carried by pterosaurs (in the Prehistoric Turtlesaurus level), climbing aboard the ship from the starboard side (in the Skull and Crossbones level ), or teleporting into the screen (in the  Starbase: Where No Turtle Has Gone Before level).

I would then rewrite "Other enemies" as follows:

There are several other enemies as well, including the "Chunky Cheese Pizza Monsters", the "Boxing Robots", "Roadkill Rodneys''", Mousers, and others. Some of these only appear in the SNES version of the game.''

The section Bosses could be rewritten as follows:

"Bosses"

''The arcade version of the game and its SNES port share nearly the same boss line-up. The differences lay in the level Sewer Surfin' , where the arcade version has no boss; in Technodrome: Let's Kick Shell!, a level which isn't in the arcade version; [etc]''

This is only a very quick suggestion and I'm sure it could be improved, but I wan't to give you an idea of how I'm thinking. You probably have a lot more experience in writing video game articles, and I think I might have cut away too much in my examples (but they are only examples and I don't have eternal time...).

I am only writing this from my POV on what I think is interesting to mention. I realize that the article would become significantly shorter, but perhaps an encyclopedia article about a video game shouldn't need to be that lenghty?

I notice that you have made a considerable effort to mention the differences between the arcade and the SNES version. A comment was made at Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_candidates that such differences are encyclopedia material. Personally I haven't decided about this yet.... I think that further input from the WikiProject Video Games should be nice. This is only the second video game article I have dealt with on Wikipedia so bare with me ;-).

Fred-Chess 15:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, I think the images -- screenshots -- are very nice and illustrative. / Fred-Chess 15:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * These suggestions are pretty much in line with what I had in mind. Nifboy 16:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've started by rewriting the regular enemies section in prose instead of list form, and as one single section. I think the table on unique entry techniques should be kept, as it contains useful information IMO. Anyway, I'm open to comments. -- Ritchy 19:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You know what? On second thought, screw the table. -- Ritchy 19:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * While waiting for comments, I rewrote the boss section. -- Ritchy 21:46, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I rewrote the Levels section. No one is commenting, so I'll assume it's ok and take the article off of "hold" in the GA nomination. -- Ritchy 00:47, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the article is OK for GA now. I did some minor adjustments, things that I think aren't necessary for an average reader. Although I realize the research of what time period the prehistoric level took place in must have taken some time? ;-)

Ok -- what could be further improved, is to tweak the language on the sections you just wrote. I find the constant comparisments between the Arcade and the SNES levels confusing.

But it was still splendid work, considering the short amount of time you did it in.

Fred-Chess 22:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

De-Listed GA
this artical was de-listed of its Good Artical status beacuse it is not well writtin and is of trvial value. Thank You and Happy Holidays | Cocoaguy (Talk) 22:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Fred Chess thought otherwise. I'm reverting the delist. see here and here. --Clyde Miller 22:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

POV
Why is this POV? It is passed as a good article and is well written.--Clyde Miller 00:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The same editor who put that tag there also tried to delist the article as being "Good". I'm sure you noticed, but just keep that in mind... Bloodshedder 00:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

2 columns
Is anyone seeing the references displayed in two columns? Because I'm seeing them as a normal list. I'm wondering if it's something wrong with my browser or if someone else is playing some kind of weird trick here.

My second question would be, why two columns? I don't think I've ever seen an article with references in two columns, and that includes articles with more than twice as many references as we have here. -- Ritchy 21:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I found this in Footnotes: "A class exists for small footnotes in two columns, but this displays as a single column in some common browsers". I don't know on which browsers the class works, but I can tell you it doesn't work in Firefox 1.0 nor in Internet Explorer 6.0. I don't think it's a good idea to use formatting code that only works on some browsers, especially when it doesn't work on two of the most popular ones. Consequently, I've reverted the formatting to the previous version, which works for everyone -- Ritchy 18:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Almost all gaming related Featured/Good Articles have two column format in the footnotes section. See: WikiProject Computer and video games --Mika1h 19:37, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Two-thirds is not "almost all". And the count is only so high because you went through the list on 9 December 2006 and changed many of them (your contribution page is public, you know?). And your change was already reverted back to 1 column on some of these pages, like Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater and Shadow of the Colossus.
 * At any rate, your argument is insufficient &mdash; the fact it's done on several other pages isn't sufficient reason to do it here. The two-column format is not recommended in the manual of style, nor is it policy for the CVG wikiproject. Popularity alone doesn't justify imposing it on all pages.
 * I've already stated my reasons to oppose this change. In addition to them, the person who reverted it on the Shadow of the Colossus page makes another good point, the single-column format is more user-friendly and easier to read than the two-column format. Do you have a reason to favour the 2-column format that makes up for all its failings? -- Ritchy 20:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I would still prefer 2-column format but it's not that big a deal, let's keep it as a single column. --Mika1h 12:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tmntdudetube.JPG
Image:Tmntdudetube.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 01:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

four players for snes?
I know there's an adapter for SNES to get four players. But I thought that TMNT was only two players for SNES. I think it should be noted that four players only works with the arcade version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.170.48.10 (talk) 01:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:TMNTVideogameFoot.jpg
Image:TMNTVideogameFoot.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Flyer vs. title screen
On the question of using the publicity flyer or the title screen in the info box on top of the page. I think we can both agree that the picture in the info box should be the most representative one of the game and of the article. The in-game title screen is the first part of the game every player saw when starting to play. It is also consistent with the article, which focuses mostly on in-game information.

The points for the sales flyer is that it is "the closest thing there is to a cover art for an arcade game, much like theatrical posters." I disagree. The closes thing to cover art for the game would be the images on the arcade machine itself. Moreover, movie and game posters are quite different; while movie posters are a central part of the advertisement campaign, game posters are seldom, if ever, seen (I for one didn't even know there was one for this game until I saw it here). Finally, the article does not discuss even once the advertisement campaign for this game, making a picture of the game advertisement poster rather off-topic.

If you were to write a new section on the marketing campaign surrounding this game (and it would be a great addition to the article, by the way) then the picture of the poster would be very useful in illustrating that section.

As a side-note, please stop changing the "SFC/SNES" to "Super NES". The console was released under a different name in other regions, which is why I wrote both acronyms.

-- Ritchy (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Granted, film is a much larger industry than the coin-operated industry ever was and of course impacts exposure - but the posters serve the same purpose. There was a lengthy discussion about using screenshots a couple of years ago and it ended in favour of printed matter (an archive of the discussion can be found here ). For the sake of consistency across the poject, I'd ask you to use the flyer until a new discussion can be had. Challenger 1983 (talk) 19:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all, the discussion you linked here is about using boxart, not posters. The key argument for using boxart is that it's what people would see when browsing games in a store or online review site, and therefore what they would be familiar with and recognize more readily. This argument does not apply to arcade game posters: practically no one is familiar with these posters, and what they saw while browsing is the arcade machine or the screen. Finally, I didn't see any consensus arise from that discussion, contrary to what you said. -- Ritchy (talk) 14:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


 * First of all, the reason why we simply use SNES instead of SFC/SNES is because SNES was the name in ALL English-speaking territories. As opposed to the Mega Drive, which was called the Genesis in America, but kept its Japanese name in Europe. I only use SFC/Super Famicom or FC/Famicom when referring a Japanese-only release or when I'm specifically writing about the Japanese version.
 * As for the flyer's artwork not being representative of the game. I disagree with that also. Like I said, sales flyer as often the closest thing a game has to a cover artwork. The same artwork that are used for sales flyer are sometime used for the cabinet side art and even on the cover artwork of most home versions (as was the case with many early Capcom games). I think the Turtles in Time arcade cabinet used the same artwork as the flyer. Also its a lot more formal than just using a screenshot, as mention above. I don't know why you have an issue with this in this article and not in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (arcade game). Jonny2x4 (talk) 02:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The "we've done it that way in another page" argument is weak. There are millions of pages, some done your way some done mine. If you want to point out one page where a poster is used, I could just as easily point out Battletoads (arcade game) or Astro Chase or really almost every arcade game here. Why do you have an issue with this article and not all the others?
 * If you had paid any sort of attention to my edit history, then you would've known that I've been replacing the screenshots used in the infobox of many arcade game articles with their flyers whenever I get the chance. I've just haven't done it with those particular examples you've mentioned yet. On the other hand, you remove the flyer of one particular game, but you don't have any objections with others. And looking at your edit history, your additions are all TMNT related. I would expected you would've done the same with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (arcade game), but you didn't and to me that's being inconsistent.
 * I think you missed my point. I was just making fun of your "you should edit other pages to be consistent" nonsense, I didn't actually expect you to start going over all other arcade pages to change them... The point is that "it's done like that on other pages" is not an argument. It never has been. The fact you keep bringing it up rather than try to argue the merits of having the poster on this page just goes to show how weak your position is.
 * I've already explained why having the poster here is inconsistent with the rest of the article and why the title screen is a better choice. You've ignored the arguments in favour of repeated calls that "that's how it's done on other pages!" (and only because you're going around changing it, apparently). Since that seems to be your only reason for wanting to change it, I consider that line of debating settled.
 * And I disagree that it is more formal. It's nothing more than a deceptive advertisement - in fact, the Turtles don't look anything like what they do in the game! Meanwhile, the title screenshot has complete copyright information. You can't get more formal than that.
 * The same could be said of most cover artworks of console games from the 1980s and 90s. A perfect example would be Mega Man (video game), a result of Capcom following their ill-conceived perception of western tastes instead of adhering closer to the actual character designs. I don't like the cover artwork myself either since Mega Man doesn't look anything like he does in the Japanese character designs, but the guidelines suggest to use an American or European cover artwork whenever they're available and changing that cover with a Japanese cover or a title screen would create an inconsistency.
 * Once again, an arcade game poster is not a console game box art, and it's not a movie poster. It's an arcade game poster. Stick to the issue and stop pretending that an off-topic tangent is an argument.


 * And since you know the console was only called SNES in English-speaking territories and SFC in Japan, what is your objection to using both names? -- Ritchy (talk) 14:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Because this is the English Wikipedia, not the international Wikipedia. Names used in English-speaking territories are preferred whenever applicable. This isn't an issue with SNES, since that's what's it called in all English-speaking territories, but most Europeans and Australian readers might not know what a Sega Genesis is unless you mention the Mega Drive too. Hence calling it Sega Mega Drive/Genesis all the time. I just see the point of disambiguating SNES/SFC sort of pointless. Jonny2x4 (talk) 15:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, one name was used in English-speaking territories and another in Asia. That's the point. It has two names. Just because one name was used in our region all the time and the other was virtually unknown doesn't change the fact that it has two names. The article has to reflect that for completeness' sake. -- Ritchy (talk) 17:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


 * First of all, making fun of someone else (as you yourself just admitted) is a sign of immaturity. I understand your rationale for using a title screen instead of the game's flyer, I just find it odd you have an issue with it here, but not with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (arcade game), or any other arcade game articles I've been editing for that matter. To me, it seems as if you're just acting like you're the owner of this article and simply don't approve of the flyer's artwork.
 * I'm sorry, but when someone tries to make an argument as silly as "why don't you change it everywhere else", I can't help but make fun of them. I don't know why you keep on getting back to the point that "it's done like that on other pages." That's not a valid argument. I'm sorry I can't find the actual Wikipedia policy page right now, but the idea is that there are millions of pages on Wikipedia, so it's possible to find a page to support any position you want. I've already pointed out that most arcade game use screenshots instead of flyers as evidence of that point. And moreover, the fact you openly admit to being the one going around changing it to flyers nullifies what little weight your argument had - you're basically arguing for putting up a flyer on this page because you put up flyers on other pages!
 * As for why I don't change it on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (arcade game) specifically, since you seem so hooked up on that, it's because I didn't work on that page. I assume other people are working on improving it, and I won't barge in and mess up their work for no reason, like you're doing here.
 * Fair enough.
 * As for the flyer, not being a legit lead image because its just advertisement, I disagree. Movie posters are also a form of advertisement, to attract movie goers whether to watch a certain movie. The same can be said about sales flyers, which are published by the game's publisher and handed out to arcade machine operators to decide whether purchase a certain kit or not. In the end, video games are still commercial products and arguing that the sales flyer is not a good representative image of the game is a very weak one by itself, considering the title screen and attract mode of the game are themselves a form of advertisement. Hell, the game itself is already an advertisement for the TMNT franchise.
 * It's not a valid lead image because (1) it doesn't represent the game: the characters look nothing like they do in the game; (2) almost no one ever saw it before, unlike game box art or movie posters or the title screen; (3) the article doesn't discuss the game's advertisement at all, making the poster inconsistent with the article. And since I know you'll insist on that point, even though it's not a valid argument by itself: (4) Most arcade game wiki articles use game screenshots as lead images, despite one single user's efforts.
 * It does represent the game, because it was produced by the game's publisher to promote the release of the original arcade version of the game. Just because its not an in-game screenshot of the game doesn't mean it cannot be representative. It features not only the game's logo, but several screenshots too, as well as the artwork used on the arcade cabinet. Just because the average video game consumer almost never saw this flyer doesn't mean nobody did. Almost no video game articles talk about the game's cover artwork, so why should we describe the game's flyer in detail to justify its inclusion? I'm not the only one who is uploading video game flyers to Wikipedia. Several arcade game articles used flyers too long before I began uploading them. I simply want to create a consistency.
 * Let's be honest here, the game screenshots in that poster are so small and low-quality as to be unrecognisable. They are not an argument for keeping your poster.
 * The game cover artwork is used exactly because it is recognisable by everyone (who didn't illegally download the game). So admitting that few if any people saw the flyer and arguing that it should be included for the same reason as the box artwork is a contradiction.
 * The only valid point you make is that the flyer was produced by the game's publisher. But that's not reason enough to include it. A lot of material was produced with this game, and Wikipedia has neither a reason nor an obligation to include it all. We have to be selective about what we include, and I have yet to see a compelling reason to include the flyer.
 * Finally, creating consistency is not a valid argument. As I've already mentioned several times, there are articles supporting both sides of the argument. So why should this page be consistent with the flyer pages rather than the screenshot ones? Why are you "creating consistency" by changing screenshots to flyers rather than the other way around? Seems to me it's just your personal preference for flyers.


 * We can argue day after day whether to use a title screen or a flyer, or we could always use a photograph of the actual arcade cabinet (which uses the same artwork on the flyer).
 * We're only arguing day after day because you refuse to read my arguments, you refuse to bring up valid arguments, and you just keep on repeating "I'm changing it on all arcade pages so I must change it here!". It's getting really tiresome, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop now.

-- Ritchy (talk) 15:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand your argument, I just don't agree with it Instead of insisting it should be one way, we should ask for a mediator's involvement in this. Jonny2x4 (talk) 15:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you insist... I'm not familiar with the mediation request process, but I assume you have to sign up on some page? Or tag the article? I'll leave that in your hands. -- Ritchy (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Any updates on the request for a moderator? -- Ritchy (talk) 14:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As for using Super NES/Super Famicom, I don't care at this point. Some articles use only once and some both. I just think its the equivalent of writing Ninja Turtles/Hero Turtles or Mega Man/Rock Man all the time. Jonny2x4 (talk) 20:13, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Tmntdudetube.JPG
Image:Tmntdudetube.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Soundtrack misinformation
The soundtrack wasn't composed by Kôzô Nakamura. It was composed by Mutsuhiko Izumi who is listed as "M. Izumi" in the staff roll of the arcade version. He didn't do the first TMNT (Arcade version) either. It was also done by Mutsuhiko Izumi (and Miki Higashino). Kazuhiko Uehara and Harumi Ueko ported the soundtrack to the SNES version of TMNT: IV (with a few new tunes) & Keizo Nakamura ported TMNT to the NES version of TMNT: II (also with a few new tunes).

http://www.arcade-history.com/?n=teenage-mutant-ninja-turtles-turtles-in-time&page=detail&id=2856 Hopesfall (talk) 00:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Virtual Console?
You've got to be kidding... when has this game ever been mentioned to have been released on Virtual Console? Mind you, I would be overjoyed if it were true, but it stands that I cannot find any source for it. 24.19.92.89 (talk) 06:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Delisting from GA
I am boldly delisting this article from GA for the following reasons:


 * At least a third of the article contains minutiae and over-detailed information of how to play the game. Wikipedia is not a game guide.
 * Several of the sources provided are not reliable, more specifically, the reviews from MobyGames (self-published), TheArmchairEmpire, The Video Game Critic, VGChartz, and user reviews from GameSpot and IGN (see WP:SPS).
 * There is one entire unsourced section as well as other unsourced portions of content present in the article. Good articles require that everything be verifiable.
 * Images are not of minimal usage and does not meet the Non-free content criteria. The one gameplay image is lacking in a strong fair-use rationale, also required per the NFCC policy.
 * There are other serious prose and MoS issues that need to be resolved.

I am reassessing as C-Class under WPVG. It may be brought up again to GAN when the above issues are addressed. MuZemike 22:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

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Cowabunga collection
Recent release of cowabunga collection has both versions on it. 2603:9000:C604:6CE1:C436:7C6A:A2A1:CE4 (talk) 12:41, 24 September 2022 (UTC)