Talk:Tel Kabri

Disagreement over whether it's Minoan
What does it mean "Minoan style"? Did they find anyhting made in Crete or just junk that they say looks "Minoan"? Anything looks "Minoan". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.236.60 (talk) 18:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)


 * We found plaster that had "Minoan blue" on it. A paint used by Minoans exclusively and most likely the result of a craftsman from Krete coming to Kabri. That's why we call it Minoan. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 26 Kislev 5774 22:46, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

changed date from december 22 2013 to november 22
December 22 2013 hasn't happened yet. I checked the news sources, and it seems it was announced November 22 (today) so I changed it. Judderwocky (talk) 18:11, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Expansion of 1986 - 1993 excavation section (Kempinski's dig)
Hopefully this article attracts more editors now. I have Kempinski's preliminary reports here with me (currently just 1988, 1989, 1990, and 1992-1993) and would like to give Kempinski's section the same treatment as the section devoted to our excavations. In the interest of WP:WEIGHT (Kempinski found a lot and was very good about publishing yearly site reports - good practice for any archaeologist because you can track how their interpretations change with each season). It's also good for the sake of completeness. Thoughts on this? Anything else that can be added to the article to make it better? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 2 Tevet 5774 00:32, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Stratigraphic table
I'm thinking of adding a table of stratigraphy to the archaeology section. Kempinski was kind enough to provide one in his primary site report. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 2 Tevet 5774 04:19, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Area map
The discussion of areas A–T would be enhanced by a map showing the areas. Is there a suitable map in the excavation reports? We will probably need to redraw it to avoid copyright problems; I'm willing to take a shot at that. 13:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I think there is a map, but I've never actually seen it. Kempinski put a lovely map in each of his preliminary reports though. I scanned the reports and could give you an image to copy. Mind you Area D has been expanded a lot in terms of what's been dug so some of this stuff we'd have to extrapolate based on the prelim reports, and photos (hell if I have any idea of the scale of our areas in relation to the site. Alternatively, I could ask for one, if it exists. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 8 Tevet 5774 14:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * It seems At Tell was on the 58m rise in the lower left, and An Nahr was inside the perimeter at the 4 o'clock position. Is that your understanding?  I'm away this week but soon I'll make a map covering an area large enough to include Kabri. Zerotalk 06:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * There's another map from the New Encyclopedia of Archaeology in the Holy Land (vol. 3) that includes a map showing those villages, and yes, that's spot on for el-Tell, but en-Nahr is more 5 o'clock. That map also shows the EBA tel in relation to the MBA tel. There's a third map that shows the EBA tel and the area inhabited during the Late Bronze Age through the Hellenistic Period, and the area roughly corresponds to where el-Tell was later. There's a fourth map somewhere that shows al-Kabri as well, but I don't remember where it is. I'll photograph the first two maps and see if I can't find the fourth map.Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 9 Tevet 5774 09:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC) Here they are. Here is the second map, which shows the positions of the villages of et-Tell and en-Nahr on the tel, from the New Encyclopedia of Archaeological Excavations in the Holy Land, vol.3, p. 839. This is the third map, from page 451 of Kempinski's 2002 final report. As you can see, the LBA settlement was believed to be in about the same area and size (probably based on survey, but not sure, especially given that sherds have a tendency to roll down hill, but that's WP:OR) as et-Tell. Here's that fourth map I was thinking of from Kempinski's 1992-1993 prelim report (no page, just figure 3, or איור 3). It doesn't show the tel itself, but it does show the positions of en-Nahr, et-Tell, and al-Kabri. Using the position of those two it would be possible to place al-Kabri on a map of the tel and an expanded area. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 9 Tevet 5774 12:12, 12 December 2013 (UTC)


 * This 1:50,000 map from about 2006 shows the neighbourhood. I also have a 1959 1:50,000 map that shows the abandoned houses, and next week will look at a 1940s 1:50,000 map. Zerotalk 14:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You're a rock star, Zero!Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 10 Tevet 5774 12:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Palatial section regional map
There should be a map of the region in the MBA II to better illustrate the possible extent and holdings of the Kingdom of Kabri as laid out in Cline and Yasur-Landau 2007, and Cline, Yasur-Landau, and Pierce 2008. Anyone want to take a crack at it? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 9 Tevet 5774 10:23, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

BAR article on the 2013 season. Potential bit of WP:COI
There's been a terrific article written by BAR about the nitty gritty of the 2013 season and the general organisation of our dig. I don't feel all that comfortable putting in the info myself though as I'm the cover for this story, and so there's probably a CoI.Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 11 Tevet 5774 03:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

A few more comments, as requested
Not by any means a complete review.
 * Etymology
 * "The ancient name of Tel Kabri is unknown as of 2014": a bit cofudsing, since "Kabri" itself s quite an ancient name. Perhaps "original" rather than "ancient"
 * As Amihai Mazar is still alive, it should be "believes" rather than "believed", and is it right to call Rehov "his own site"? I know he directs operations there, but he doesn't "own" it.
 * Geography
 * First mention of "Neolithic" in the text needs to be linked, and it should be "Neolithic era" or some such.
 * History
 * Your readers won't know what "Pottery Neolithic" means. Don't rely on a link in the lead. Link here. It is a general principle that significant mnames, words or phrases should be linked at first mention in the main text, regardless of whether they are linked in the lead.
 * The initials MBA appear eleven times in the first "Palatial" paragraph, which makes the text awkward to read and understand. Sentences like "The remains of the earlier MBA I palace appear to show that that the MBA I palace was expanded to create the MBA II palace" need rethinking.
 * Apart from the alphabetic repetitions, some of the text appears to be repeated, too, For example, in the second "Paltial" paragraph we have "The old MBA I palace was expanded into the MBA II palace", which has already been said.
 * Last sentence of paragraph needs a citation ("Kabri became the capital of a major polity, with the newly expanded palace at its center"). There are other instances of this later in the article.
 * "longer than any other palace in Israel" – which Israel are you talking about, biblical state or modern state?
 * Within the article we have "as of 2014" and "as of 2013". There should be consistency here.
 * Check sentences for multiple "and" conjunctions. An example: "After this destruction, the town was rebuilt and this new town grew during the Persian period (538–332 BC), and there are remains from this time near the tel's spring of Ein Shefa."
 * "Some time during the Early Roman period, the Jewish settlement..." This is the first specific mention of a "Jewish settlement" When did Jewish (or Israelite) occupation begin?
 * "aqueducts have been built from Kabri to Akko by local rulers, in Hellenistic times (332–64 BC), and during the governorship of Jezzar Pasha..." Jezzar's governership was 2,000+ years after the Hellenstic period. You need to clarify, e.g. "...and, much more recently, during the Ottoman Period governorsip of Jezzar Pasha in the 18th century CE". You should end the sentence there, and rewrite the remainder within a new sentence.
 * Regrettably, there is too much confusion in this section for me to make much sense of it, as a historical survey. The timeline is far from clear.

I'm sorry, but this is as far as I am prepared to help with this article. I have looked at it several times, and although there has been observable improvement there are continuing prose and presentation problems, which I'm afraid I don't have any more time  to help  resolve. The technical stuff appears to be sound (though I have no expertise in this area). I wish you success with whatever you decide to do with it. Brianboulton (talk) 22:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

ancient Israel
It is absurd to describe a 1750–1550 B.C.E. Canaanite site as being in "ancient Israel". Nor is it true that the source calls it that. The source identifies the site as being in (modern) Israel and never uses the phrase "ancient Israel". The source identifies the remains as Canaanite, not Israeli in any sense. "Ancient Israel" is also misleading as readers will think it means the biblical Kingdom of Israel. We should use one of the common designations for the region over time, the two most common being "Palestine" and "Levant". ("Canaan" is old-fashioned and "Holy Land"is POV.) Zerotalk 11:04, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I also checked the source (before visiting this talk page and seeing this section) and agree with User:Zero0000. The source does not suggest this was in ancient Israel (not that I think it's a fantastic source, but it does not make the claim). Doug Weller  talk 11:52, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It says its in Israel so I changed it accordingly.Using term that source doesn't use it on the verge of source falsification--Shrike (talk) 17:38, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

And it clear that we should say in the lead section the geographic location of the place which is Israel --Shrike (talk) 17:47, 18 August 2019 (UTC) The source says "Israel", and the article should reflect that. Personally, I would prefer to use "Canaan" in place of "Israel" (since that's what the land was called at the time), but that would be OR.The Human Trumpet Solo (talk) 05:12, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Tel Kabri II Excavation Report forthcoming
I'm amazed that several people are still following this after so many years! Anyway, I want to make those folks aware that Tel Kabri II, the site report for the 2005–2015 seasons, will soon be published. I have written the introductory chapter which covers much of the history of the site (needless to say, the process of helping write this Wiki article informed it), and I will also be receiving a complimentary copy. If anyone would like me to provide them chapters for use in editing the article, please let me know and we can get in touch. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 26 Tevet 5780 21:26, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi, That's great. Let me know if the map can be improved. Zerotalk 08:23, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Creation of category "EB cities in Southern Levant"
Please see discussion here. Arminden (talk) 09:29, 26 May 2022 (UTC)