Talk:Telshe Yeshiva

Best name for the institution and this article

 * From User talk:IZAK:

Rabbinical College of Telshe

Can you leave the article alone? As an alumnus of the Rabbinical College of Telshe, who has documented the history of the Institution for the insititue itself and for government purposes, I find myself qualified to work on the article. The name of the institute is the Rabbinical College of Telshe. Not Telshe yeshiva, not Telshe, not Telz. It may be colloquially referred to by all these terms, but as this is an encyclopedia, entries are to be made under their names, not under pseudonyms. Someone more qualified than you comes along, spends hours on an article and you butcher it. Doubtlessly, I'm going to receive a long winded self righteous emotional response as always from you, perhaps on someone else's page too. I wonder how you would feel if you wrote something that you were qualified to write on and someone who was not qualified butchered it. Telzer 08:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Telzer: I understand your emotions, however, the proper forum to discuss this is on that article's talk page. I have just spent a few hours on improving the articles. Let's talk about it over there. Thanks. IZAK 08:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * From User talk:Crzrussian:

Hey Crz, I need your assistance. I've begun a rework of the page on Telz Yeshiva. Here's the problem - In Lithuanian, the town is called Telsiai, in Russian Telshe and in Yiddish its Telz. The yeshiva is legally registered as The Rabbinical College of Telshe, but known in the yeshiva world as Telz. The page was originally under Telz Yeshiva, then some genius diverted it to Telshe yeshiva, without a capital "y" for yeshiva. If yeshiva is to be part of the name, then it should have a capital. I've now diverted it to Telshe Yeshiva, but now a diversion page appears when one goes to Telz Yeshiva. Would you mind having a look at it? Many thanks Telzer 15:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * With regards to name preferences, it would make sense that in an Encyclopedia, the correct name should be used. That is the Rabbinical College of Telshe. Problem with that, however, is all the many links to Telz Yeshiva. To my knowledge, there are no links to Telshe Yeshiva. If it must stay Telshe Yeshiva, let's make it Telshe Yeshiva (capital y in yeshiva) and not Telshe yeshiva. I will also ammend this point in the opening paragraph of the article, which claims the yeshiva has numerous names. It has only one name but is colloquially referred to by other names. Many thanks Telzer 02:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Telzer: Wikipedia naming conventions call for a small "y" in the case of "Telz yeshiva" (or if you prefer: "Telshe yeshiva") because in any case, as you correctly note, it's not even the yeshiva's official name. Please read Guide to layout and Tutorial (Formatting) for more information about this. Thank you. IZAK 06:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Crz, and of course Izak, who seems to be watching certain people's user talk pages, I don't know if you want to bother working on my initial suggestions. It seems that someone has already gone to work on it and arrived at a different conclusion. I've worked for hours on preparing a rework of the entire article as it is pathetic in scope and information. I don't think, however, that I will bother completing it as individuals who don't really know that much about the place have a habit of altering parts of it. Any true disciple of the Rabbinical College of Telshe values highly academic accuracy and so I find some of the alterations intolerable. Thanks for your time anyway. Telzer 08:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. If "naming conventions" call for a small "y" even when the name "Yeshiva" is incorporated into the legal name of the institute, then someone should change the entry Yeshiva University to yeshiva University. Telzer 08:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Telzer: That's precisely the point, Yeshiva University is its legal name so then it is correct to have upper-case (capital letters) "Y" & "U". But "Telshe yeshiva" is it's common name and not it's legal name, so then it is correct for it to be "Telshe yeshiva" on Wikipedia. My impression was that you were using the "Y" in "Telshe Yeshiva" as an honorific for the institution, and not as a matter of "legalese." If you look at the Category:Orthodox yeshivas, you will see that some yeshivas are referrred to by their legal names whereas others are referred to by their common names or popular names. In all cases, whichever is ultimately chosen (and Wikipedia must consider the  fact that a name has popular usage that may  outweigh the need for using a legal name, as long as it's stated in the introduction), WP:REDIRECT will have to be utilized to connect common names with legal names and vice versa. IZAK 09:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Continuation of the discussion
Izak, I will reiterate the following points. Cheers. Telzer 03:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The official and registered name of the institution is the Rabbinical College of Telshe. An encyclopedia would list things by their official name, not colloquialisms.
 * If, as you have pointed out, the entry should be found under the name by which it is commonly referred to, then the name should be Telz or Telzer Yeshiva. Few people refer to the institute by it's Russian pronounciation (Telshe) but rather by it's Yiddish pronounciation (Telz).
 * The registered name of the branch in Chicago is Telshe Yeshiva - Chicago. (You may refer to the external link on the site for US Colleges.) Therefore yeshiva requires a captial "Y" as in the instance of Yeshiva University. (I will post this on the Telshe Chicago discussion page.)
 * I'd also like to know the source for your assertion that "yeshiva" must be spelled with a lower case "y" when used in the title of various yeshivas. Universities do not seem to use these guidelines and use a capital "U" in university. Grammatically, when a word is used as a specific noun, it has a capital. For example, bridge. When used in a title, like, George Washington Bridge, the "B" in bridge becomes a capital. (See http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/bridges/html/gwb.html). Thus, in the instance of a specific yeshiva, such as "Mir Yeshiva" the "y" should be capitalized too.
 * While you have corrected certain points based on Wikipedia guidelines, I am going to revert any alterations which remove historical information, such as dates, etc. I am also going to correct grammatical errors.

Hi Telzer: Let me try to answer all your points: (But firstly, why is your user name appearing as only "Telzer" without any link to your user page? Please use the four tildes ~ to sign and that will automatically produce your name and its link to your use page with the date and time of your comment.)
 * 1) As you know, while yeshivas have adopted "official names" in the United States, but in Europe they didn't feel the need for such "formalities" and yeshivas and Chasidishe kehillas were simply known by, and referrred to, the name of the towns (shtetls actually) that they came from which has carried through into modern usage so it's not just a case of the "colloquialisms" you belittle but it's actually part of a very solid long mesorah ("tradition") that is highly respected. Now, while the official Anglicized American name nowadays for Telz is "Rabbinical College of Telshe" BUT the article does not have to be bound to that name by some sort of "invisible law" that you are invoking here. But quite honestly, I do not have any personal preferences either way in this case because as I mentioned if you look at Category:Orthodox yeshivas you will see that some articles use "official names" while others use equally legitimate "traditional names."
 * 2) I do not mind if this article is called "Telzer yeshiva" but I have noticed over the years that it is the Telz people themselves, and I doubt that you speak for all of them, do refer to the yeshiva as the "Telshe yeshiva" too, especially in print.
 * If, as you state, "the registered name of the branch in Chicago is Telshe Yeshiva - Chicago" then by all means, use that name, but please consider that there are other ways of doing this on Wikipedia. Even so, there will still be the need to differentiate between the two Telz yeshivas in the USA -- and for this ther are many Wikipedia precedents and there are thus a number of solutions. In fact there could be, and should be a Disambiguation page: Telshe yeshiva (disambiguation) and in it we could legitimately have Telshe yeshiva, Cleveland; Telshe yeshiva, Chicago and even Telshe yeshiva, Lithuania (about the the yeshiva in pre-war Europe) and this arrangement would be based on the one Wikipedia has for Ohr Somayach (disambiguation) which disambiguates Ohr Somayach, Jerusalem and Ohr Somayach, Monsey (although I do not know why the name "yeshiva" does not appear in them. Anyhow that could be easy to fix if needed.)
 * 1) You ask for "the source for your assertion that "yeshiva" must be spelled with a lower case "y" when used in the title of various yeshivas." And my answer to that question is PLEASE SEE AND  READ: (i) Naming conventions especially: Lowercase second and subsequent words: "Convention: Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne and Art Nouveau, but not Computer Game); (ii) Naming conventions (capitalization) especially: "Convention: Unless the term you wish to create a page for is a proper noun, do not capitalize second and subsequent words. For multiword page titles, one should leave the second and subsequent words in lowercase unless the title phrase is a proper noun that would always occur capitalized, even in the middle of a sentence"  and see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization): Examples: "*Multiword articles: Practical joke, Particle physics, Russian constitutional crisis of 1993..."; and (iii) Naming conventions (precision), especially: Conflicts over precision.
 * 2) Finally, I laugh when you say: "I am going to revert any alterations which remove historical information, such as dates, etc. I am also going to correct grammatical errors" because I spent hours editing the article, but you are the first person in my over three years on Wikipedia accusing me falsely of such nonsense. Can you kindly point to examples of my "errors"? If anything, it is you who has, due to lack of experience, linked the word yeshiva thirty times (?) in the article which is a big Wikipedia no-no as it is considered to be poor form to link over-and-over-and-over again to the same word in any article.

Best wishes, IZAK 07:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Responses to Izak's comments
1) With regards to yeshiva's not originally having used "formal Anglicized" names, which they do, however, use now, I quote to you Izak, the very words which you wrote on my talk page on June 14th: 'Hi: It doesn't matter what was or "wasn't around 20/30 years ago" because we are dealing with the-here-and-now'. A tad inconsistent, eh old boy?


 * Telzer what was the context of that? Even in modern times everyone I know of in the yeshiva world doesn't calll it "Rabbinical College of Telshe" but they call it "Telz" and the way they write about it in Jewish observer-type articles and books is "Telshe" and that too is "modern-day", so I don't know what you're carrying-on about. IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Let's make something very clear. As is clearly evident from my correspondence (above) with Crzy, I have merely put forth a few suggestions for what the page name of this article should be. My options have been: Both of these approaches are indeed found at Naming conventions (schools). Quote: "Version 1:
 * The official name of the Institute or
 * The name commonly used

Convention: school article titles should use the full official name of the school as provided by the school itself. If there are other school articles that would have the same name, to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parenthesis. Version 2:

School articles titles should use the most common name for the school that does not conflict with the names of other schools. If there are other school articles that would have the same name, to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parentheses.

Consider that some names of schools are so obviously generic (example: "Alternative High School" or "National Sport School"), that even if one can't yet find a school with the exact same name (using Google or other means), it often makes sense to qualify the name appropriately to avoid renaming later on. End quote.

The so called "invisible law" which you claim I am being bound to, would appear to be the very visible Version 1 above and the paragraph "Consider". But let me point out something important. I am not being bound by any law, as I am simply making suggestions. I haven't changed the article name to Rabbinical College of Telshe. I leave the unilateral action to you.


 * Telzer: So there is option one or two, and I agree wih that notion, why do you think I am fighting logic? The only concern is to establish an obvious balance between two criteria: (1) "official names" and (2) "common names" which is an age-old issue when writing an encyclopedia. Welcome to life on Wikipedia. IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

2) Regarding calling the article Telzer Yeshiva: well, that is indeed another option. Again, I've just made suggestions based on either official name or colloquially used with correct grammer as will be addressed below.


 * Go ahead, call it "Telzer yeshiva" by all means but it cannot be named "Telzer Yeshiva" per Wikipedia naming conventions as far as I am familiar with them. IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

3) Regarding disambiguation on account of Telz in Cleveland, the branch in Chicago and the idea of a separate page for the yeshiva in Lithuania: let's take these points one by one. As quoted from Naming conventions (schools) this would not have been an issue had the article been given it's official name, Rabbinical College of Telshe. The branch in Chicago is Telshe Yeshiva. Thus, the very names of the two institutes are different. Nevertheless, as stated above, an article on an institute may still be titled by its commonly used name, in which point "the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parentheses". Thus, there is no need for a disambiguation page. Regarding making a separate page on the institute in Lithuania: this would be a most offensive move as the institute is a direct continuation from its Lithuanian origins. The only reason it moved to the United States was on account of World War Two. I hope you appreciate this. The faculty of the yeshiva who survived the war and saw the majority of the yeshiva massacred would be greatly offended by any notion that they are anything but a direct continuation of the yeshiva founded in 1875. In fact, in 1975, the yeshiva celebrated it's 100th anniversary and published a work entitled: "Yovel HaMeah".


 * Telzer: Even with official names of institutions there would still be an overriding need for a disambiguation page in this case because both yeshivas, in Cleveland and Chicago (not to mention the historical one in Lithuania) are still universally referred to as "Telz" or "Telshe" (take your pick.) IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

4) Regarding naming conventions and use of a capital letter in a second word: when the word yeshiva functions as an element of an institute's name, it becomes a proper noun and is capitalized. Please have a look at Category:High School. In it's own right, High school has a lower case second word. When, however, High School serves as a part of an institutes name, the word school is capitalized. Please select High schools in the United States and pick any random article. They all have High School in capitals. The rules you quote to me are general rules for second words, such as computer game. Now, regardless of whether the "Anglicized" name of Yeshivas Telz is the Rabbinical College of Telshe, or whether some stationary reads Telshe Yeshiva, the word yeshiva occupies the place of a proper noun as in the case of any high school which uses high school as part of its name.


 * Sorry Telzer, but "Yeshivas Telz" (an Ashkenazi Hebrew pronounciation that is not generally used on Wikipedia) is not a "proper noun" by any stretch of the imagination, it's a common name. In any case who calls it "Yeshivas Telz" in America? And there is no Telz in Israel (except for the neighborhood called Kiryat Telz-Stone in Jerusalem.) What's the point of going into a tailspin over this exactly? IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

5) With regards to your laughing. Enjoy. However, as per your way, you refer to your "age old" experience on Wikipedia and then, rather than citing grammatical issues, take umbrage with Wikipedia formating! I never mentioned that I would rework any wikifying which you have performed. Simply your grammatical errors and removal of historical facts. While you may have spent "hours" editing the article, try and consider the time spent by someone who researched and wrote the article to start with. Considerablly more time than required by a good editor to polish it all up.


 * Telzer: I hereby fully deny that I made any knowing "grammatical errors and removal of historical facts" -- a very pathetic accusation indeed. Please point to any errors I have made and If they need to be I will be the first to learn from them and correct them for future references. But this is the second time you have needlessly accused me of something I have not done and if you do it a third time I will definitely not be amused (or am I supposed to imagine that you are goading me to think that you are crossing the line/s of No personal attacks against me?) I will think about it, if you will. IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Finally, I must say that I always sign off with the four tildes. But thanks for your kind reminder. You do seem to enjoy a dispute, far more than I do, so I'm sure you have enjoyed all of this. Telzer 12:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Telzer: Hmm, I dunno, but why is your sig appearing as "Telzer" and not as Telzer? Try using the four tildes ~ again and make sure everything is ok with your software otherwise ask the Help desk. Have a good Shabbos. IZAK 11:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Responses to Izak's responses
1.) It’s very simple. As you’ve evidently lost track of the discussion, I will remind you. Try and keep focus prior to getting emotional. As with any discussion about naming an article, I put forth all the options, which are: the legally registered name of the institute, and various commonly used names. (At this stage I had pointed out two naming issues. Use either the official name or a commonly used one. I had not made any suggestion as to which name should be used for the article. I had just listed them as options and the reasons why.) In response to this you stated unequivocally that yeshivas in Europe did not have official names but were simply known by their town’s names. You also, for some reason, stated that I was “belittling” the commonly used names. In response, I replied by quoting you that we must deal with the here-and-now, not the past. Accordingly, your argument that since the yeshivas of old did not use official names and therefore they should be discounted today, is an invalid argument, as you say, we are dealing with the here-and-now. Thus, we now return to my original point, that there are two options for naming the article. One is to use the official name of the school, the other is to use one of the commonly used names. At this stage, I still have not made any decision which one I feel is the better option. I’ve still only pointed out the options and that your logic employed to disqualify one of these options, is not valid on account of other statements you’ve made. Hopefully, now you know what I’m carrying on about, i.e., there are two options for naming this article in accordance with Naming conventions (schools).

On a very side note. Your assertion that institutes in Europe did not have official names or use them is incorrect. They did have official names, but just as is our day and age, they were commonly referred to by their cities. In official documentation, they used their official names.

I’m not sure why you bring the “Jewish Observer” publication into this. Here’s a link to an article by Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller, the Rosh Yeshiva of Telshe Yeshiva Chicago. http://www.tzemachdovid.org/gedolim/jo/tworld/rbloch.html (I imagine he’s qualified on the topic) The article was featured in the said publication, the Jewish Observer. Interestingly, he refers to the “Telshe Yeshiva” with a capital “Y”. (He also refers to the “Telzer Derech” with capital “D”, after all, it too becomes a proper noun.)

2.) Please see Naming conventions (schools).

3.) See Naming conventions (schools). Even if one were to choose version 2 in the naming conventions, Quote -

Version 2: School articles titles should use the most common name for the school that does not conflict with the names of other schools. If there are other school articles that would have the same name, to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parentheses. End quote.

It clearly states that “to disambiguate, the most general location should be added as a qualifier in parentheses.” Certainly not the need for a complete disambiguation page. Furthermore, since the official name of the institute in Chicago (Telshe Yeshiva – Chicago) incorporates what version 2 calls for in terms of disambiguation, there is no doubt that the page should be called either Telshe Yeshiva Chicago (or use parentheses) to differentiate and not a disambiguation page used.

4.) That’s really nit picking. I write an entire paragraph trying to reason why perhaps the ”y” should be capital and once refer to the institute as Yeshivas Telz (the yeshiva of Telz for anyone not fluent with Hebrew) and all you can focus on is that? What about the point of the paragraph? We concur that Telshe is a town in Lithuania. Telshe Yeshiva is a yeshiva from that town. In it’s own right, yeshiva is a common noun. When, however, the word becomes part of a title, it becomes a proper noun. Like World Wide Web. Yes, in their own rights, these three words are not capitalized, but when combined to form a proper noun, they are. Another example, Kenston High School. High school does not require a capital “S”, however, when used as a proper noun, the “S” is capitalized. The word university does not require a capital letter, however, when part of a name, it does. For example Ohio State University.

5.) This is not the second time that I am bringing up the point. I am merely seeking to clarify the point originally made. The original point never stated that there did exist any such errors, but that were any to exist, I would rectify them. It’s clearly in future tense. As a matter of fact, however, I will specify below two such examples. I’ve carefully read No personal attacks and I am clearly not in any violation. There may be, however, an issue of you wikilawyering. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Telzer: Firstly, kindly stop accusing me of emotionalism. All names can be included in the opening sentence of an article, but this does not mean that the longest name is always the "right one" for that article, there is always the usage of judicious Redirects in such situations. I honestly don't care what name the Telzer yeshiva ultimately has on Wikipedia, the goal should always be to strive for clarity and simplicity of style and presentation. All your analogies of yeshivas to "official schools" in the United States all miss the point because yeshivas are NOT "schools" or "universities" (if anyone thinks so then they are barking up the wrong tree.) This is essentially a question of what Orthodox Judaism and in particular Haredi Judaism name their mosdos hachinuch ("institutions of education") and it is widely accepted in the Jewish world, expecially in the Orthodox world to use a variety of names for the same institutions and individuals, as long as they are legitimate, see all the varieties that various editors have included thus far as naming options for yeshivas in Category:Orthodox yeshivas (and no, I did not write all those articles.) Similarly with individuals Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan (actually it should be Israel Meir Cohen on a purely English Wikipedia) can also be referred to as the Chofetz Chaim (or technically in English it should be Hafets Haim (book)). Similarly, almost all yeshivas have multiple names, and according to Jewish traditions (and not merely according to secular "traditions" alone) the names of those yeshivas can be written about in their common names without it being misconstrued as an insult to their status. IZAK 14:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S.: By the way: Did you read? Naming conventions (common names): "When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?" Thus even on Wikipedia there is room for flexibility, kal vachomer for subject-matter relating to Judaism. Basically, one must strive for a balance based on good sense too. IZAK 14:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Naming discussion
Whew, what a read. Here's my two cents.

First, Telshe/Telz: Where does "Telshe" come from? According to the article (Telšiai), that is its Yiddish name. However, according to this article, it is its "Russian" name. It seems that the name was historically spelled Telshe but pronounced Telz (Telze?), since the yeshiva seems to refer to itself as Telshe ("Rabbinical College of Telshe", "Telshe Yeshiva - Chicago"). In that case, the proper spelling is indeed "Telshe."

Now, for Yeshiva/yeshiva: If the commonly used name of the place is simply Telshe, then "Telshe yeshiva" makes sense, since we are talking about a yeshiva by the name of Telshe. Similarly for Mir. But Telzer is saying that the institution is known as "Telshe Yeshiva," in which case that has become its proper name, and if that's so, I believe it should be capitalized. What I find interesting is that in the letter linked by Telzer, Rabbi Keller refers to the yeshiva as "the Telshe Yeshiva" 3 times, but as simply "Telshe Yeshiva" only once. Maybe I am reading too much into it, but "the Telshe Yeshiva" sounds like "the yeshiva in Telshe" (he also calls it "the yeshiva in Telshe" and the "Yeshivah of Telshe" once each). That would mean that the yeshiva was originally simply known by its location, but its name was not really "Telshe." Of course, this is no longer the case. To my mind, the question is: is "Telshe" its full name, or a shortening? Is it "Telshe, the yeshiva" or "Telshe Yeshiva?" Or perhaps it is still "the Telshe yeshiva" ... If it is actually "Telshe Yeshiva," it should be capitalized.

However, it is not really known by its "official" name of "Rabbinical College of Telshe," so that should not be the title of the article. --Eliyak 15:54, 13 July 2006 (UTC)


 * If redirects always take you to the page, it seems to me it matters less where the main article resides; Why is wiki policy stringent on that? No offense to alumni of Chicago branch, but looking up Telshe should lead you to Cleveland before Chicago.

on the capital Y in yeshiva: if the yeshiva had an S at the end, you could see it as a modifier. Where you drop the posessive, it becomes part fo the proper name. Let's use Telshe Yeshiva Rabbi-m 04:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Historical fact
It is common knowledge that the Jewish Community in Eastern Europe was not wealthy, with many Jews living below the poverty line. The historical fact that in 1894, the Telshe Yeshiva managed to finance the construction of a purpose-designed building is impressive and historically noteworthy. It is substantially more costly to design then build a brand new building than to simply purchase a pre-existing one. It also tells us that forethought went into the design of the new building to ensure it was perfectly suited to a yeshiva.

Hence, I am reverting the ‘purpose-built’ information. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Telzer: I had nothing to do with this information, feel free to edit to your heart's delight if you have the factual knowledge, that's what Wikipedia is all about. IZAK 14:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * P.S. Correct heading is "Historical fact" (small "f" for second words in headings). IZAK 14:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
The correct spelling of Talmudic study is not Tlamudic study. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Obvious typo, all good writers make them, that's why they hire proof readers (and believe me I do tons of proof reading of Judaic articles on Wikipedia myself -- sometimes it feels it's what I mostly do.) IZAK 14:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Proper noun
Telzer Derekh is a proper noun and thus ‘derekh’ should be capitalized. Telzer 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Telzer: Hebrew does not have capitals so any captilazition of Hebrew words is basically incorrect! (However, if the first word of an article is in Hebrew then it gets capitalized.) That is the way it's been done in all articles with Hebrew words in them. Look around and you'll see. IZAK 14:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Heading should be "Proper noun" with a small "n". IZAK 14:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Affiliation with Agudath Israel
While the Roshei Yeshiva of the Telz Yeshiva have all played leading roles in the Agudath Israel organization, the yeshiva itself is not officially associated with the Agudath Israel. Rabbi Mordechai Gifter recounted that someone once asked the Telzer Rav why he directed students to become members of the Agudath Israel and not the Mizrachi movement. Rabbi Bloch responded that the yeshiva did not formally encourage students to join the Agudah, but that it was a student's own prerogative. True, the yeshiva participates in the same social conclaves that the Agudah does, but it is not officially associated with the Agudah. That being the case, I am going to remove the statement that it is affiliated with Agudath Israel.


 * Hello anonymous anon, could you please sign all comments with the four tildes ~ ... as this helps to know who is saying what to whom and when. Thank you. IZAK 07:40, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Mediation request
Hi, I am not officially mediating this case, but I will try to help. Please remember to stay civil. Be sure to comment on the content and not the contributor. You may wish to appeal to a broader community for input by asking at the Village pump, posting a Wikiquette alert, or filing a Request for Comment. Ideogram 09:33, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

move page to proper name
Move to Rabbinical College of Telshe. The article for the baseball stadium in Chicago is not Wrigley, the one in Montreal the Big 'O' or do we take this to WP:RM? --Shuki 20:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi Shuki: Bad analogy. Yeshivas are not similar to modern-fangled baseball teams. In Judaism there is a solid tradition of informal naming, for institutions and individuals. I have no objection to whichever way it goes, because all ways are ultimately legit. But one note of caution, if you are going to start calling every last yeshiva in existence by its "official" name (and yeshivas are notoriously - in the good sense - "unofficial") then you will be faced with the problem of including the names of all the famous donors who gave/give money and have had institutions renamed in their honor -- yet nobody ever uses those names except on official letterheads or in fundraising dinner journals and ads. Thus, the famous Ohr Somayach, Jerusalem could become Ohr Somayach Tanenbaum College or perhaps Ohr Somayach Institutions  or even Jewish Learning Exchange - International Outreach . And Ohr Somayach, Monsey could well be Ohr Somayach Tannenbaum Educational Center  -- but who calls them that in the Jewish world? Their are countless similar examples. IZAK 14:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Orthodox alone is not a suitable Wikilink for this article.
Telzer: Please do not use the link "Orthodox" alone. It's only a redirect to an article about "Orthodoxy" including the Christian variety. Please use Orthodox Judaism or dab it as Orthodox Thanks. IZAK 15:02, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Mediation active?
Is this dispute still active? --Ideogram 01:08, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I still see it on the Mediation Cabal worklist as waiting for a mediator. I'm considering joining the MedCab and tacking this case. Torinir  ( Ding my phone  My support calls   E-Support Options  ) 21:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * There hasn't been any activity for over a week. I'll close it; you can reopen it if need be.  --Ideogram 21:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

merge branches
Howdy, There are currently small articles on both Birchas Chaim and Mesoras Mordechai. I'm unsure if either school passes the test of notability. What makes this yeshiva highschool particularly special that it gets an encyclopedia article? The curriculum is unremarkable in both and the each have only a handful of students. At this point, IMHO, they should be removed and any information about them should be folded into the Telz article. Unless objections are voiced I will be putting them up for AfD with a recommendation to merge the articles here. Joe407 (talk) 08:56, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well birchas chaim is not completely telz, even though Rabbi Shmuel Zalmen Stein was instructed to open it by his father. The way of learning is more similar to the [Beth Medrash Govohah| Lakewood yeshivah]] style. But the customs etc. are more telz like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadeah vhadibur (talk • contribs) 01:47, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

As has been done with Mesoras Mordechai, I'm going to merge Yeshiva of Telshe Alumni and Birchas chaim. 74.188.56.82 (talk) 12:37, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

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