Talk:Tempi train crash

Location name granularity
Most articles, photo captions, videos primarily name Larissa and Tempi, e.g. "at Tempi near the city of Larissa in Central Greece"; only some say Thessaly Doug Grinbergs (talk) 09:34, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Larissa is not in Central Greece. Deiadameian (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * – Since Greece is shaped and laid out like an uncleaned yabbie, it does not have a hard center. No clear bullseye. But, Larissa, geographically is part of [//news.gtp.gr/2019/12/30/larissa-central-greece-city-break-destination-in-making/ Central Greece]. Yup. Having fun! Cheers!  03:43, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Reaction section needed
This article would likely benefit from a reaction section detailing both domestic and international reactions. I'll try to see if i can add them later if nobody does by the afternoon. Onegreatjoke (talk) 13:30, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Added the reactions of politicians but someone removed it. Why? TynoPk (talk) 18:11, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It continues to be removed even now. Not sure why some people think its unecessary. TrainSimFan (talk) 19:53, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * TrainSimFan, that's because everyone says the same things. They just offer "condolences" and move on with life. Nothing notable about such reactions. Perhaps if other countries actually did something notable, it could then be added. For example, a country reacts to an earthquake by sending aid to the affected country. That's notable. In the case of this collision, a notable reaction would be the lowering of flags to half-staff because it is not something that happens every day. We don't normally see the European Commission lowering its flags following every accident in the region. — Nythar  (💬-❄️) 20:01, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I guess it makes sense in the end, its a standard of politeness in international relations, but it still should be mentioned to some extent (from what i recall, in some cases it just says "foreign leaders sent their condolences" and theres a small notes section listing them). Thats just my two cents though. TrainSimFan (talk) 20:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with that proposal; keeps it nice and short. — Nythar  (💬-❄️) 20:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Which of the two trains was switched to the wrong track?
As trains in Greece drive on the right track, it seems the passenger train was on the wrong track, the eastern "down" track should be for southbound traffic. Bancki (talk) 07:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, i believe the train was meant to go on the northbound track (on the right side) but it somehow ended up on the southbound (left side) track. Maybe it was in order to switch tracks at set of points meant for higher speeds (say 100 km/h instead of 40 km/h)? The train was delayed after all. TrainSimFan (talk) 09:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Renaming the article
Given that over 40 people have died and this is described as the worst train accident in the history of the Greek Railways, isnt it appropriate to rename the article title to "Tempi train disaster"? TrainSimFan (talk) 09:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * We much more often have crash or collision in our titles of train crashes. There doesn't seem to be a common name for this one. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 09:56, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I mean, i did notice that in the title it says crash whereas in the first few words it said collision. But again, seeing as almost 50 people have died, isnt it much more fair to actually call it a disaster?
 * It would be the same for the railway accident at Otloczyn in Poland in 1980, where 67 people died. The severity of these crashes is something that should be taken into an account. At least that's what i think anyway. TrainSimFan (talk) 10:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hello. Our Wikipedia article is train wreck (not crash) so IMHO it should be moved to 'Tempi train wreck' for continuity. Cheers!  15:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The term "train wreck" is contrary to the request that the article should be edited in British English though. Train wreck is a specifically American English term. TrainSimFan (talk) 16:36, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

– Okay. Thank you. I hear you. I agree with you. That article name needs some pepping up. Which is the best British English term? How about: Tempi head-on rail disaster. It is an epic collision. Cheers! 18:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * On several Wikipedia articles regarding train accidents in Britain (see Harrow and Wealdstone or Lewisham), it is simply (location) rail disaster. TrainSimFan (talk) 18:26, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree that train wreck is specifically American & we shouldn't use it in non-American contexts except in quotations. We don't have many rail articles that have disaster in their titles. Otłoczyn railway accident should be renamed as its title downplays the severity of it. British articles tend to use crash: Harrow and Wealdstone rail crash, Lewisham rail crash, Ladbroke Grove rail crash etc. Some of the most severe crashes in some countries include disaster in their titles, including Eschede train disaster & Nishapur train disaster, but we shouldn't do so unless that becomes the common name. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 19:58, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your clarification! I mean, i do expect for it to be described as a disaster (if its not already described as such in the mass media) given how severe it is. But thank you for a rather serious opinion on the matter. Thats all i wanted to know, if it should be renamed right now or not. I guess we will wait some time. TrainSimFan (talk) 20:07, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The mainstream media are using various different titles; most of the international media are using Greece in their titles because Thessaly & the locations within it aren't well-known outside Greece. Our title needs to specify the location. If a common name becomes clear, we'll move it. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:34, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * In terms of location, Tempi is fine, but it can be confused with Tempe, Arizona, where a train derailment occured a few years ago. Tempi is also used by several other languages (Russian, Turkish to name two) who wrote their own versions of the article based on the ENwiki article of the crash. When i made a translation for ROwiki i used Evangelismos, which is the name of the village where the accident occured, mainly because i prefer accuracy when it comes to this. This could also be used but its also not so well known. Thessaly and Greece is too broad, and adding 2023 in the title... sort of implies that previous train accidents have occured in the site (im not sure if they have though). TrainSimFan (talk) 21:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It happened near - but not in - Evangelismos; that shouldn't be in the title. It happened in Tempi, which is why I chose that as the location in the title. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 22:59, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, so i think Tempi is the best choice here. TrainSimFan (talk) 07:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a range of titles across the many different language articles about this crash. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:41, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

– . This article can be hard to find on Google because so many RS names are mentioned in relation to it, and lots of searches default to Arizona as you so aptly point out. To that end, IMHO, a great disambiguator, and to make it more uniquely Greek, the page should be moved to: "Vale of Tempe Railway Disaster"; based on where it happened, "Vale of Tempe", Greece. Or, shorter is "Thessaly rail disaster" based on the "Thessaly" region. It happened halfway between E-town and T-town, and the T-town name brings up the Arizona wreck in the US. Cheers! 15:50, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I know its a late reply but i think i've done what i had to do with the article, instead i invite people to edit other Greek railway-related articles. They could use a bit of help. Im glad i was able to collaborate though. TrainSimFan (talk) 19:52, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Pavlos
Hi, User:Cplakidas. It's been a while since our work overlapped, how are you going? Per WP:BRD, I am just asking why you removed my small reaction note from Pavlos? Despite him being a private citizen, I added him as it is technically his first "duty" (if you wanna it that) as Head of the former Royal House of Greece and he does have some prominence in this Greek context. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:45, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I strongly dislike Reaction sections because they turn all soapy with reports of which famous people "felt sad" or "heartbroken" by the tragedy. It serves absolutely no purpose in an encyclopedia except for generating publicity for those figures through someone else's suffering. The content of this Reaction section is, on the contrary, encyclopaedic and I am in favor of keeping it so. Surtsicna (talk) 22:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * What happened to the rest of the reactions, like that of Emmanuel Macron, Xi Jinping and the EU? Did they get removed too? If so, I think that they should all be added back. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:39, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It seems they did get removed. Why should they be added? They are just routine condolences. Surtsicna (talk) 23:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It is standard on Wikipedia (consistency among articles). - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Like it was suggested earlier on, we should keep a section with reactions but keep it as a minimum. How does that sound? TrainSimFan (talk) 07:08, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, but I just think that some high-profile people should be mentioned here, such as Charles III, the king of 15 countries, or Xi Jinping, leader of the second most powerful country in the world. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 07:33, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * two things. First, as, these sections can get trite, because what, other than 'heartfelt condolences', is anyone going to say? They are not really informative or encyclopedic, so if you want to have such reactions, they should be representative, and only that. Second, Macron, the EU, etc. have an institutional role, and their reaction to international events is inherently notable. Pavlos doesn't have a role; he is a private citizen. The former Royal House of Greece is that, 'former', and has been that for fifty years now. By including his statement among national or world leaders, Wikipedia is implying that he is that, i.e. that he has a relevance, a role, and a voice in commenting affairs of Greece. He simply doesn't, just like nobody asks the head of the House of Hohenzollern is opinion about any event in Germany. In pre-Twitter times, we wouldn't even know his reaction because nobody would actually solicit it. Constantine  ✍  07:35, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would not have Macron's condolences either. Nobody's thoughts and prayers are of encyclopedic significance. If he does something more substantial, we should add that. Trite content being common on Wikipedia means that other articles need improvement, not that this one needs diminishment. Surtsicna (talk) 07:51, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. It is not encyclopedic. My point was that putting Pavlos among actual world leaders, if any were to be quoted on this disaster, is wrong. Constantine  ✍  11:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Still, i believe once and for all we should settle this issue. Even if its not encyclopedic we can compress it to the bare minimum. Most people seem to support that. Its getting tiresome having to cycle back and forth between adding them and removing them. TrainSimFan (talk) 18:27, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * If it is not encyclopedic, it does not belong in an encyclopedia at all. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:ROUTINE are well established policy and guideline, respectively. Surtsicna (talk) 18:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, unless there is consensus, it will just be added-removed-added again... which is waste of time! My opinion (for what it's worth) is to have a brief overview, for example, "a number of heads of government publicly offered their condolences to the Greek people" and leave it at that! -- ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠  (talk)  14:18, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes exactly! I think thats what most people want. I've said already, its what some Wikipedia articles i browsed have, just that and a little note towards the bottom (where you usually see other notes for the article), its literally the bare minimum. Its useless to go back and forth over something so minor. I know its not very encyclopedic but a small mention should be done at least.
 * So who's gonna support this idea? Im certainly down for it. TrainSimFan (talk) 21:59, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would support one or two short sentences about heads of state or high-profile members of society giving their condolences, but, as per above, I don't think there needs to be too much detail on it. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed! One or two short sentences, I can get behind that... but no emotions... keep it professional and to the point -- ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠  (talk)  00:46, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

62 passenger train carries 350 people in InterCity?
Hello, when we have a four-word clump of words we need to chunk it up so our readers can parse it properly. Here is my edit summary to help our non-expert readers: "we need to chunk this up with hyphens, commas, spaced en dashes, unspaced em dashes, semi-colons, or full-stops, so it does not read to our readers as an InterCity "62 passenger train" instead of an "InterCity 62" "passenger train", or it needs to be rewritten as prose that is not in a run sentence that is confusing to our readers."

The same words are used in at least three spots in the article. I edit in good faith, so please look for the intent of my edits before reverting them. Read my edit summaries too, and if you edit, please summarize your edits, at least minimally. Yes, I get it wrong, but I try to fix it, or you can. It's a wiki! It's not correct to state that the adjoining terms cannot be hyphenated for clarity. Thanks. Cheers! 14:11, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I edited it to abbreviate the pax train to IC62 to avoid reader confusion. Please discuss. Cheers!  15:14, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Other signals between Neoi Poroi and Larissa
Having watched this cab-view video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4), ive noticed more additional signals between Neoi Poroi and Larissa, including exit signals at Evangelismos, not far from where the accident occured. So is it really fair to say there arent additional signals? From the start this idea felt weird considering as most, if not all railways have signals and blocks between stations. This isnt like dark territory tracks in North America. TrainSimFan (talk) 19:34, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The distance from Larisa to Neoi Poroi is more than 40 km. If there was only a single block section, the capacity would be way lower than seven trains per hour. That first part of sentence was added by User:Ronylouis5622 without a reference and I suspect that this information is not backed up by the reference that was added later. --PhiH (talk) 22:32, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Train by SYRIZA
Το έτος 2017 δημοσιεύθηκε στο φύλλο εφημερίδας κυβερνήσεως, τεύχος Β΄, φύλλο 1884, της 30/05/2017, η υπ' αρ. 41756 οικ./2017 απόφαση του Υπουργού Δικαιοσύνης για «τη διενέργεια πλειστηριασμού με τη χρήση ηλεκτρονικών μέσων».

Με την ανωτέρω απόφαση καθιερώνονται προϋποθέσεις, όροι συμμετοχής, ο ρόλος των συμβολαιογράφων και γενικά η όλη διαδικασία διεξαγωγής των πλειστηριασμών. Ο επισπεύδων την αναγκαστική εκτέλεση δύναται να αιτηθεί τη διενέργεια του πλειστηριασμού με τη χρήση ηλεκτρονικών μέσων (ηλεκτρονικός πλειστηριασμός) σύμφωνα με τις διατάξεις του Κώδικα Πολιτικής Δικονομίας.

Η διαδικασία ηλεκτρονικού πλειστηριασμού πραγματοποιείται μέσω των ηλεκτρονικών συστημάτων πλειστηριασμών («ΗΛ.ΣΥ.ΠΛΕΙΣ.»).

Υπάλληλος του ηλεκτρονικού πλειστηριασμού είναι συμβολαιογράφος που προηγουμένως έχει πιστοποιηθεί.

Αντιθέτως,  τα ηλεκτρονικά συστήματα σηματοδότησης και τηλεδιοίκησης στον ελληνικό σιδηρόδρομο, αγοράστηκαν το έτος 2000 , αλλά ουδέποτε τοποθετήθηκαν.

Από το 2014 η Ευρωπαϊκή Ένωση έχει χρηματοδοτήσει 16 έργα στον τομέα των μεταφορών στην Ελλάδα, με περίπου 700 εκατομμύρια ευρώ, το 90% των οποίων αφορούν τις σιδηροδρομικές μεταφορές, τόνισε ο εκπρόσωπος της Ευρωπαϊκής Επιτροπής, αρμόδιος για θέματα μεταφορών, Ανταλμπέρ Γιανς, σε ερώτηση σχετική με την τραγωδία των Τεμπών.

Σύμφωνα με την ευρωπαϊκή Οδηγία για τον ενιαίο ευρωπαϊκό σιδηροδρομικό χώρο, όλα τα κράτη-μέλη έπρεπε να εξασφαλίσουν τη σύναψη συμβατικής συμφωνίας μεταξύ της εθνικής αρμόδιας αρχής και του διαχειριστή σιδηροδρομικής υποδομής το αργότερο έως τις 16 Ιουνίου 2015 και τη δημοσίευσή της εντός ενός μηνός.

Όπως ανέφερε η ανακοίνωση της Κομισιόν στις 15 Φεβρουαρίου 2023, η απόφαση ελήφθη επειδή η Ελλάδα «δεν εκπλήρωσε τις υποχρεώσεις που υπέχει δυνάμει της οδηγίας για τη δημιουργία ενιαίου ευρωπαϊκού σιδηροδρομικού χώρου (2012/34/ΕΕ)».

Η σύναψη και δημοσίευση της συμβατικής συμφωνίας χαρακτηρίζεται από την Κομισιόν «ιδιαίτερα σημαντική για τη διαφάνεια» των έργων στο σιδηροδρομικό δίκτυο. «Η συμφωνία αυτή θα πρέπει να περιέχει ουσιαστικές διατάξεις, όπως αναφορικά με το ύψος των κονδυλίων που διατίθενται για τις υπηρεσίες υποδομής, καθώς και στόχους επιδόσεων προσανατολισμένους στους χρήστες (για παράδειγμα, ταχύτητα γραμμής, ικανοποίηση πελατών ή προστασία του περιβάλλοντος)».

Σημειώνεται περαιτέρω ότι «παρά τις ανταλλαγές επιστολών μεταξύ της Επιτροπής και της Ελλάδας, οι εθνικές αρχές εξακολουθούν να μην έχουν υπογράψει και δημοσιεύσει τη συμβατική συμφωνία» με τον ΟΣΕ. Η Επιτροπή είχε κινήσει διαδικασία επί παραβάσει κατά της Ελλάδας για το θέμα το Δεκέμβριο του 2020 και απέστειλε αιτιολογημένη γνώμη τον Δεκέμβριο του 2021. Το έτος 2016 το ελληνικό κοινοβούλιο ψήφισε νόμο που ενσωμάτωσε αυτούσια την Οδηγία 2012/34/ΕΕ της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης «για τη δημιουργία ενιαίου ευρωπαϊκού σιδηροδρομικού χώρου (ΕΕ L343/32 της 14.12.2012) και άλλες διατάξεις». Προέβλεπε το διαχωρισμό της διαχείρισης και υποδομής του σιδηροδρομικού δικτύου, από το μεταφορικό έργο. Ως διαχειριστής ορίστηκε ο ΟΣΕ, ο οποίος πλέον δεν έχει καμία πρόσβαση στο μεταφορικό έργο, ενώ «παρεχόταν η δυνατότητα» στον Οργανισμό να εκπληρώνει το «έργο» του σε συνεργασία και με ιδιωτικές επιχειρήσεις, δηλαδή μέσω ΣΔΙΤ.

Ταυτόχρονα, ο ΟΣΕ ήταν υποχρεωμένος να παρέχει κάθε δυνατότητα για την ελεύθερη πρόσβαση στο σιδηροδρομικό δίκτυο των σιδηροδρομικών μεταφορικών εταιρειών από κάθε κράτος - μέλος της ΕΕ και όχι μόνο, χωρίς - εκτός των άλλων - να αναφέρονται σαφώς οι προϋποθέσεις και οι όροι ασφάλειας που θα πρέπει να πληρούνται.

Το έτος 2017 πωλήθηκε η ΤΡΑΙΝΟΣΕ στην Ιταλική «Ferrovie dello Stato Italiane Group» αντί 45 εκατομμυρίων ευρώ.

Το χρέος του ΟΣΕ, ύψους 14,3 δισ. ευρώ, προστέθηκε στο κρατικό δημόσιο χρέος, όπως και η ετήσια επιχορήγηση της ΤΡΑΙΝΟΣΕ από τον κρατικό προϋπολογισμό. Επίσης μετακινήθηκαν υπάλληλοι σε άλλες θέσεις του Δημοσίου, στο πλαίσιο των προγραμμάτων «εξυγίανσης». Το συνολικό κόστος για το ελληνικό Δημόσιο έφτασε τα 15,719 δισ. ευρώ.

Η ιταλική εταιρεία επιδοτήθηκε με 50 εκατομμύρια ευρώ τον χρόνο, για να εκτελεί συγκεκριμένα δρομολόγια, όπως προβλέπεται από τη σύμβαση Υποχρεώσεων Δημόσιας Υπηρεσίας (ΥΔΥ) που έχει υπογράψει με το ελληνικό υπουργείο Μεταφορών.

Να σημειωθεί πως η σύμβαση ιδιωτικοποίησης που υπογράφηκε το έτος 2017 ανάμεσα στο ΤΑΙΠΕΔ και την Ιταλική «Ferrovie dello Stato» για τη μεταβίβαση του 100% των μετοχών της ΤΡΑΙΝΟΣΕ ουδέποτε δημοσιεύθηκε.

Τον επόμενο χρόνο, το 2018, ο νόμος 4548/2018 ενσωμάτωνε τον κανονισμό του 2007 της ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης.

Την ίδια χρονιά μετά την ιδιωτικοποίηση, το 2018 θεσμοθετήθηκε «διευθέτηση» του εργάσιμου χρόνου με 9ήμερη συνεχόμενη εργασία, ενώ απολύθηκαν 120 εργαζόμενοι. Η ΤΡΑΙΝΟΣΕ υπήρξε μία εταιρεία με πολλά χρέη, η πώληση στην Ιταλική εταιρεία έλαβε χώρα έναντι χαμηλού τιμήματος και τα αυτονόητα ηλεκτρονικά συστήματα σηματοδότησης και τηλεδιοίκησης στον ελληνικό σιδηρόδρομο, αγοράστηκαν το έτος 2000, αλλά ουδέποτε τοποθετήθηκαν. Έπρεπε να έχουν ολοκληρωθεί από το 2004 στους Ολυμπιακούς Αγώνες. Στην περιοχή των Τεμπών, δεν λειτουργούν τα συστήματα επικοινωνίας, τα φωτοσήματα, η τηλεδιοίκηση και τα συστήματα προστασίας.--2A02:586:813D:2AEA:105:961E:6356:CE5A (talk) 09:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Missing - Deaths
How many people have died, how many people are missing? Are the people missing to be found among the deceased? Is it improbable that the missing people shall be found? Will they be found as the rescue procedures continue? We have to clarify these important matters...L'OrfeoSon io 10:59, 5 March 2023 (UTC)
 * At least, add a reference to a reliable source at the infobox, where it is stated that "Missing 2" and Deaths 57 .L'OrfeoSon io 11:12, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Greek railway terminology
I think some details in railway terminology should be polished. Since I am not fluent in Greek and not a native speaker in English please correct me if I am wrong.

Σταθμάρχης has been basically correctly translated as station master. However, the term station manager seems a bit more contemporary to me. If possible, it should be specified whether the person in question has been the station manager (at large) or the station manager on duty. It should be added that in Greece apparently a station manager is tasked with the job of a train dispatcher, an allocation of tasks that is not taken for granted in all countries.

Κλειδί has been erroneously translated as key (currently in the quote "turn the keys"). While key is indeed the general meaning of the Greek word, in a railway context it means switch.

Κλειδούχος apparently is the switchman. (Online tools erroneously translate this term as key man or locksmith which is definitely wrong.)

Denomination of the tracks: I would also suggest some experts to check whether the wording is proper railway terminology (though understandable to all readers). 2A01:598:B97E:22DA:2802:5C38:247B:F08 (talk) 11:05, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

This would be a great wikidictionary project: greek railway terminology. Although for the non-standard terms, a visit to slang.gr might be necessary. 2A02:587:8147:8800:F9E3:3FDC:6D3F:C38E (talk) 23:27, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Draft of the protest related to the crash
Draft:2023 Tempi train crash protest has a article about a protest due to train crash Ayamano2021 (talk) 17:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Safety
I agree with the statement This wreck followed a series of other rail accidents with no casualties but can this line be expanded, not least there have been a number of incidents in and around Larissa, as noted in List of rail accidents in Greece. -- ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠  (talk)  22:05, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I find that sentence to not have enough legs to stand on its own. Needs a lot of work. But, it is a cogent point. Cheers!  16:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks @WikiWikiWayne besides the word wreck which is a North American term, which I have changed The adding at least of Larissa 2018 accident, Larissa 2008 accident would go somewhere to adding to this sentence, but I need to see if there are other non fatal crashes on not on the current list ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠   (talk)  22:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit from 81.170.22.189?
This is a large edit from an unknown user, and I'm not sure if it should be included clarification is needed? ✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠  (talk)  12:45, 29 March 2024 (UTC)