Talk:Temple Grandin/Archive 1

Relevance of Bill Gates' informal ASD dx
Apologies for not providing a citation for comparison between Temple Grandin and Bill Gates, as evidence pointing to his apparent Asperger's is 'common knowledge' on the net. Google lists 891 hits for the search "Bill Gates" asperger's and 15,600 for "Bill Gates" autism, though many probably relate to the ASD clusters in high tech enclaves. Grandin herself is well aware of Gates' condition, having written the following: "It is also likely that Bill Gates has many Asperger's traits. An article in Time Magazine compared me to Mr. Gates.  For example, we both rock. I have seen video tapes of Bill Gates rocking on television. Articles in business magazines describe his incredible memory as a young child." Ombudsman 19:59, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I think the Bill Gates reference should be removed from this article, since he has never been clinically diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Rather he's been diagnosed from a distance by people either viewing public appearances of Gates or childhood reports of him, both of which can be very misleading. --ErikStewart 01:37, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When this first was added to the page, I checked the Bill Gates page for any mention of Asperger's or autism, and found none there. If this is a correct/supportable fact, it should certainly be on his own page as well, not just a reference here. --Lucien 00:54, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * While Grandin's great accomplishments as an inventor and advocate for humane livestock treatment are quite noteworthy in and of themselves, they are especially so in relation to the positive aspects of her condition. While not everyone might consider any comparison to Gates a compliment, the fact is that her accomplishments as an autistic define her as a pioneer in the autism community and should be placed in a fitting perspective, thus the comparison is merited.  Ombudsman 02:08, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It's not a matter of whether the comparison is a compliment, it's a matter that this is not a clinical (or otherwise thorough) diagnosis. Bill Gates has also been diagnosed from a distance of having ADD, and probably other mental conditions.  At the same time Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson and Nikola Tesla have all been diagnosed (non-clinically) with Asperger's syndrome .  People love to guess about what makes celebrities tick, and in some (or maybe even all) of these cases they may be correct, but I don't feel we should consider them reliable enough diagnoses for entry into an encyclopedia.  --ErikStewart 14:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Placing the magnitude of Grandin's accomplishments in a fitting context is the primary issue here; while relevant, whether or not the comparison is flattering is another matter. Any assessment of Gates' cognitive function necessarily depends on subjective criteria, as advances in the art of modern psychiatric diagnostics have not yet produced any medical test whatsoever that might identify an underlying pathology.  The best diagnostic model modern medicine has come up with to date, the chemical imbalance theory, in its subjectivity is at best equivalent to Grandin's evaluation of Gates; common sense, in this case, indicates the cliche, 'it takes one to know one', is at least as valid in rendering an assessment of Gates' high functioning Asperger's.  Further examples of the diagnostic features Gates exhibits might begin with his phenomenal memory as a youth, an indicator of an eidetic memory, common among individuals who fall along the autism spectrum.  It is not clear which features, if any, of Asperger's that Gates does not exemplify.  Ombudsman 17:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, Gates rocks, and he has a very good memory. That doesn't prove that he has Asperger's syndrome.  I'm sure there are people who rock that don't have Asperger's syndrome.  And I'm almost certain there are people with eidetic memories that don't have Asperger's syndrome; otherwise the section on eidetic memory should be edited to reflect this.


 * One reason to suspect that he might not have Asperger's syndrome is that his achievements seem unlikely ones for an Aspie. One would expect that being CEO of a company better known for clever and ruthless business decisions than for technological innovations would need a very high understanding of human nature.  That is exactly a quality that Aspies are said to lack.  If he is an Aspie, he would seem very typical in this respect.


 * I've changed the sentence saying Bill Gates is "said" to have Asperger's syndrome, to Bill Gates is "believed by some" to have Asperger's. I am in favour of taking out the reference all together, since it is neither a certain reference, nor are Bill Gates' accomplishments representative of successful autistics.  Perhaps it could be replaced by a list of other famous suspected autistics, including people such as Bill Gates, Albert Einstein, Thomas Jefferson, Nikola Tesla, Erik Satie, Glenn Gould.


 * --ErikStewart 16:49, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Lucien. If this is a supportable fact it should be added onto the Bill Gates page also.  Ombudsman, would you be willing to add it somewhere on that page, or bring it up in the  Gates discussion page?  --ErikStewart 17:18, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Yikes. In the middle of preparing a new Simpsonwood vaccine conference article right now, with an overhaul of the Insurance article next on the priority list.  Your sentiments regarding mention of others with possible ASD traits, which would be too unweildy for the intro, are entirely reasonable, but perhaps that might fit better in an article section.  As a CEO, Gates' propensities do set the tone, but the Machiavellianism  of Microsoft is more aptly attributable to the machinations of the type of people he has surrounded himself with.  The question was posed deliberately, in an attempt at shorthand, as one of whether or not there are any Asperger's traits that Gates doesn't exhibit.  If anything, Aspies are often prized as employees, in engineering and other fields, for dispassionate traits that enhance a style of objectivity, scientific, Machiavellian, or otherwise, that few others can achieve; a case in point: Grandin's perspective on the behavioral differences between British and continental cattle.  Ombudsman 18:01, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't really care whether BG may or may not have remotely diagnosed autism. I can't see any excuse for including it in the lead paragraph about Temple Grandin. At best it could be a footnote here, and is really a subject for the Bill Gates article, or has it already been trounced on the talk page there? -- Solipsist 18:25, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I also think that Bill Gates shouldn't be in the intro-paragraph regardless. I introduced the Asperger's discussion to the Talk:Bill Gates page a few days ago, but it hasn't yet been answered.  --ErikStewart 20:48, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Grandin's self comparison alone makes the association worthy of more than a mere footnote. The issues relevant to an introduction perhaps should revolve around that which makes the article encyclopedic - in this case Grandin's grand accomplishments - and the most obvious gateway to introducing perspective thereupon would entail a human comparison.  Bill Gates just happens to fill the bill.  Perhaps one of you can suggest a means whereby Grandin's encyclopedic noteworthiness could be placed in a more relevant perspective?  Ombudsman 08:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Grandin's self comparison alone makes the association worthy of more than a mere footnote. The issues relevant to an introduction perhaps should revolve around that which makes the article encyclopedic - in this case Grandin's grand accomplishments - and the most obvious gateway to introducing perspective thereupon would entail a human comparison.  Bill Gates just happens to fill the bill.  Perhaps one of you can suggest a means whereby Grandin's encyclopedic noteworthiness could be placed in a more relevant perspective?  Ombudsman 08:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bringing up Bill Gates in this article is like John Kerry saying "Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian" in a presidential debate. It just seems inappropriate, irrelevant, calculated to make some self-absorbed point.

Edits 9 April 2006
History of the disputed paragraph: (1) Original version by User:Skysmith; (2) Intermediate version posted by User:Szyslak; (3) Disputed version posted by User:Benche19. I suspect that the editor's problem with the paragraph was caused by the third edit, which does seem to add untowards criticism of, mainly, those who had diagnosed "brain damage." Then again, this is offset by the paragraph's opening sentence "Grandin grew up in a time when very little was known about autism." I'm unhappy with the result (not to mention the edit summaries) so I'll re-edit, avoiding the suspicion of doctor/psychologist/psychiatrist-bashing. And although citations are always welcome, I'm not sure this specific paragraph needs one since it's peppered with references like "she considers," correctly attributing this to TG and indicating it's found in her autobio as mentioned on the talk page. AvB &divide; talk  09:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

POV comment
Recently, User:138.67.16.55 added the paragraph
 * Although her intentions may be good, it could actually be argued that Temple Grandin has in fact done more harm than good for animal rights. After all, sending the message to the public that animals are being "humanly slaughtered" has the effect of easing guilt that people might feel about consuming meat. Meanwhile, billions of farm animals in the US live their entire lives in over-crowded indoor buildings.

This may be true, but at the moment it is just a personal comment and also POV. It really needs a sourced reference to be included. -- Solipsist 19:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Without addressing the merits of the argument, which seem correct to me, this comment isn't appropriate here. A good way to get this criticism into the article would be to quote a reputable source that makes this argument. I think that would make the article more balanced. Danlovejoy 20:27, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

You can't just paste in what you wrote before and support it with a link to an activist web site. That's not really a reference. You need to find a reference which is specifically critical of Grandin's work - a source that essentially backs up what you're asserting here. While farm animals may live their entire lives indoors, Grandin's work has more to do with "humane" slaughter. Once again, I think it's a valid argument and certainly appropriate for this article, but it's controversial, so it's going to require substantial backing. Danlovejoy 00:59, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * In fairness, some criticism of her does seem to exist . I do recall listening to an interview she did on NPR where she compared autistic behavior to animal behavior, which in itself would be controversial as well. Perhaps a Controversy section is called for. BTW, what's up with the references template? What's the info that's disputed? Neurodivergent 23:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Where does this link present this criticism? I read the article twice and it's all praise, or am I missing something? This type of criticism needs to be bolstered with at least one citation from a reputable source, usually more is needed for inclusion in a biography (see John Seigenthaler Sr.). Since such references are not given, I have commented out the controversy/criticism section for now.AvB &divide; talk  12:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

It simply doesn't belong here, because it applies to the entire field of animal welfare. I'm also not sure how eating meat is inherently bad for people, as the current version of the comment (in the article) seems to imply. - Samsara contrib talk 14:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed it from the article. AvB &divide; talk  09:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Source for Quotes
No source is provided for the two quotes.

Here is one I found for the first one: http://www.eco-farm.org/efc_07/schedulesat.html --Eitz Chayim 20:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I have been unable to find a source for the paraphrased quote: Curiously, Grandin says that she has no empathy for humans, but she has empathy for animals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashevillevegan (talk • contribs) 15:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Can you blame her?Lestrade (talk) 01:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

The quote that remains in the article is from the "Stairway to Heaven" episode of Errol Morris' "First Person" series (2000). My Wiki markup is insufficient to make that edit, but if anyone is watching this talk page, that would be the correct source of the full quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.193.56 (talk) 05:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see that image file.
File:templeaward300.jpg doesn't seem to exist anywhere I can see it. Also, the edits to add it were unsuccessful. - Sinneed  21:30, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

"Hug Machine"
According to this TIME interview, she no longer uses it:

"Do you still use the squeeze machine? It broke two years ago, and I never got around to fixing it. I'm into hugging people now."

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1960347,00.html

70.53.108.239 (talk) 03:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Is "high-functioning" appropriate here?
As I see it, the term "high-functioning" is used generally in a way that uses highly disturbed functioning as its point of reference. It means that the person functions much better than many or most people with autism.

That doesn't work very well for a person like Temple Grandin. She doesn't just function better than many or most people with autism. She functions better than most people who don't have autism at all. She functions better than most people - period.

I don't know what the answer is, but calling her "high-functioning" does her a great disservice. It doesn't show respect for her accomplishments; it actually belittles them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Poihths (talk • contribs) 01:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Moved external links here for discussion
I've moved a bunch of links here for discussion, I don't believe that that they comply with the links guideline. Are there any that should be incorporated as sources into the text? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 14:15, 29 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Future Horizons, Inc. Temple Grandin site
 * (the person)
 * (HBO TV movie)
 * Dr. Temple Grandin, Animal Handling Inventions
 * Quotation from Temple Grandin
 * A Thorn in My Pocket (pub. Future Horizons, Arlington, TX 2004), by Temple Grandin's mother, Eustacia Cutler

Interviews

 * Temple Grandin interviewed on Conversations from Penn State
 * Audio Interview of Temple Grandin on the Leonard Lopate Show (WNYC)
 * NPR Fresh Air audio interview with Temple Grandin by Terri Gross on 'The Best Life for Animals' 2009-01-05
 * BBC Documentary on Temple Grandin YouTube link to part 1 of documentary
 * A free podcast Temple Grandin talking about her latest book

Articles

 * Temple Grandin: The Definition of Good by R. Liptak  — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned] comment added by 67.142.172.27 (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * VOA News profile
 * TED - Temple Grandin: The world needs all kinds of minds
 * Who is Temple Grandin? Yahoo TV article on Emmys.

Removal of references to Asperger's syndrome by User:Trickmind
These seemed like WP:AGF edits where editor User:Trickmind removed references to Asperger's within article. This person originally posted this rationale to article; I'm cutting it from there & putting it here for consensus discussion:
 * "(Moderators I have had to include the reasons for my edit here for you to delete.) My reason for removing the word Asperger's is as follows... Temple Grandin does NOT have Asperger's syndrome she has autism. Here is the link to the criteria for Asperger's syndrome versus autism from the DSM http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-aspergers.html Note this part of the diagnosis (IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language in Aspergers (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years) If a person DOES have a delay in language development then the condition is autism not Aspergers. Temple Grandin has straight up autism. Temple Grandin as previously stated in this article DID have a delay in developing language.)"

Boogerpatrol (talk) 11:42, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

where are the professional refs???
Supposedly she is famous as a scientist with animal research. So why aren't her animal peer reviewed publications listed???!!! I think i will add some. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.34.104 (talk) 19:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

TED talk to be added in Temple Grandin Honor section
In the entire page on Temple Grandin, her TED talk that she presented in front of a large audience has not been mentioned. I believe that the TED talks are a very important aspect in any famous important person in regards to talking about the psychological mind set. She gave a very intriguing and heart-warming speech about how she views life everyday and how we can help other kids with Aspergers and Autism for them to be involved more in everyday functions. By putting a section recognizing her TED talk, people would be able to go look and view the talk for themselves and relate back to the Wikipedia page for a reference to see the life that she lives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stabarestani17 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree, I think it is important to include Grandin's TEDtalk, especially with regards to her involvement in autism advocacy. I have made an edit including a link to her TEDTalk as a reference under the In popular culture section. I think it is most appropriate to include it here because this section lists her other media appearances as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Megnardo (talk • contribs) 23:15, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Grandin's Mother's Theories
Why do we have a section on the opinions of a non-notable person in Grandin's Personal Life section? The fact that Grandin commented on it in a blog entry fails WP:A7. Other than the subject being Grandin's mother the speculation is not notable, neither is Grandin's response to it. μηδείς (talk) 20:41, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, what would anyone's mother know about anyone? But agree a blog is not a good enough source. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Eustacia Cutler
I added "Temple Grandin's mother is the author of "A Thorn in My Pocket: Temple Grandin's Mother Tells the Family Story"" because Eustacia Cutler deserves more credit. She, among many other things, fought against Temple's father's efforts to have Temple institutionalized. Actually I saw Temple speak at Harvard, and she is a very entertaining speaker. But look further into her story (beyond the funny anecdotes Temple tells) and you'll learn a lot more. Try this link "Eustacia Cutler Keynote Address March 2013, Diamonds in the Rough Conference" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaz3ktgrNQ. Webmanoffesto (talk) 16:14, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

New version is grammatically incorrect
My edit was reverted with the accompanying edit summary, "Reverting back to status quo - please discuss on talk page." My edit was a reversion of an earlier series of edits that introduced a dangling modifier. Universities don't have autism (...at Colorado State University with autism). I don't care whether Grandin is called an "autistic professor" or a "professor with autism" if that's the concern. My edit was addressing a grammatical error. CatPath (talk) 22:46, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Asperger's Syndrome
I removed the bit from the first paragraph saying Grandin "has Asperger's Syndrome autism" Though Grandin has written about pervasive developmental disorders in general, I haven't been able to find any mention of her having Asperger's as opposed to autism Squidwina 15:14, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree According to Autism, the most significant difference between Asperger's syndrome and autism is that those with Asperger's syndrome show no signs of abnormality before the age of three  But Grandin was already diagnosed with "brain damage" at the age of two --ErikStewart 15:05, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are both wrong. Prof. Grandin has Autism, informally called High Functioning Autism (HFA), although HFA is not in the DSM-IV-TR, the term is widely used by psychologists etc. to describe autistic people with an average to superior IQ who can speak well. The difference between HFA and Asperger's Syndrome is that the former autistic person exhibited a significant language delay in childhood, I believe that Prof. Grandin did not begin to speak until she was about 4 years old, so that rules out Asperger's. Both HFA and AS look the same in adulthood, thus the confusion. Diamonddavej 15:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. And for those wondering why Grandin is so high functioning as compared to many with autism, the reason is the early and intensive intervention by her mother and people hired by her mother. Grandin in turn advocates early and intense intervention for kids today with similar diagnoses. She mentions this in some of the things she has written.QuizzicalBee (talk) 02:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Add me to people saying Asperger's is not appropriate re Temple Grandin because the DSM IV description of Asperger's clearly states "There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)" Grandin DID have a significant delay not really speaking until age 4 therefore she could not be diagnosed with it. Also as a side note Asperger's has been removed completely from the latest DSM V in favour of Autistic Spectrum Disorder covering all forms of autism. There is a pervasive misconception that Asperger's just means high functioning, when really it meant no speech delay as well. Trickmind (talk) 14:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)trickmind

Confusion and Contradiction in Chronology
The Diagnosis section states that the general term "brain damage" was applied to her at age 2, and "autism" came decades later, first with her mother's amateur assessment in "mid-teens" and later with "formal diagnosis ... in her 40s".

The immediately following section, Early Childhood, should be rewritten to flow consistently from the uncertain/vague/delayed diagnosis, rather than jumbling chronology by referring to "institutionalization of autistic people" as the context for her mother's powerful advocacy to help her develop by getting help at home from specialists. In particular, the "rift" between her parents needs to be fit accurately in the chronology -- was it at age 2, or close to the time of divorce (mid-teen years)? If the latter, perhaps move to the Middle high school section.Martindo (talk) 03:58, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Savant references and categorization
There remain a reference and four valid citations about the subject's autistic savantism. So, why was the likely WP categorization, "Category:Autistic savants," deleted?

Unless there is reason to abandon the idea of the subject's autistic savantism as described by the relevant citations, I will replace the categorization.174.23.171.229 (talk) 15:17, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input. While there is a tendency to label all highly intelligent autistics as savants, Temple Grandin is not a savant. The sources claiming that she is may be unreliable in this respect. I would be happy to go into more detail if you are still not convinced. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 15:29, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Under further examination, at least one reliable-looking sources has argued that she is a savant based on her brain structure. However, she lack most of the behavioral characteristics of a savant. Whether she is or is not a savant may be a matter of dispute. --Wikiman2718 (talk) 15:49, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

old orphaned note without a section - added a section
I have ordered Grandin's Autobiography Emergence. When I have finished it, I will ad to this article. I'll also write to her and get her permission to post a pic. (or edit the article herself) Danlovejoy 18:53, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

'savant'?
Given the brief discussion in the archives as to whether she is 'savant'. perhaps it could be indicated in the article that 'some people have claimed that she is a savant'. As the commenter said, not every person who is high functioning with autism is a savant, and there is no indication that she is one, even if she is very intelligent. --2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:AD20:B600:FF9E:4E34 (talk) 13:14, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

How was Temple Guardian different from other children?
Which detail supports this main idea Temple lives on a farm temple side and pictures Temple loved ice cream 73.188.98.209 (talk) 15:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Preferred terminology to refer to autistic people
A | recent change replaced "individuals on the autism spectrum" with "autists", which I believe is a slur. Rather than simply revert to the previous language, I replaced it with "autistic people", since my understanding is that autistic people often prefer identity-first language (e.g., "autistic people") over people-first language (e.g., "people with autism" or "individuals on the autism spectrum"). However, if there is a source that indicates Dr. Grandin has some preference for how her autism should be referenced, perhaps that would be the better option. - Tim314 (talk) 18:46, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

How widespread is the usage of Grandin's livestock handling inventions?
Several material claims in this article have no sources, including:

"The first system was installed in the mid-1980s for calves and a system for large beef cattle was developed in 1990."

"This equipment is now being used by many large meat companies."

"The use of this scoring system resulted in significant improvements in animal stunning and handling during slaughter."

There are citations for the academic papers that describe these inventions, but no citations that substantiate the claim that these inventions are in widespread use or have had led to "significant improvements." Please give Grandin the credit she is due by including these sources if you know of them.

Jackcalendar (talk) 01:21, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Grammar
At the time of this posting, this article contains the sentence "After reviewing the checklist, Grandin's mother hypothesised that Grandin's symptoms were best explained by the disorder and was later determined to be an autistic savant." Since the subject of the clause "was later determined to be ..." is not specified, it is, by default, Grandin's mother. So, Grandin's mother was later determined to be an autistic savant. When I stop finding basic elementary-school shoddiness like this in Wikipedia, I'll stop being offended when asked to donate. In fact, I'll actually donate.2600:8804:8C40:11:DCFF:A789:B37B:8872 (talk) 00:02, 7 February 2023 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson


 * Grammatical error noted, and corrected. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 02:37, 7 February 2023 (UTC)