Talk:Tense

The term 'tense' would seem to be the least understood term in linguistics. It does not, and cannot, indicate the time setting of the verb because it only means something when compared to the time setting the verb relates to.

There are only two tenses, 'the past' and 'the non-past'. Tense is solely chosen by the speaker. Verbs relate to either 'the past' or the 'non-past'. This is solely determined from the context. (Perfect verbs relate to the time period that follows the one in which the actions or states occur. Imperfect verbs relate to the same time period.) The time periods 'past of the past' and 'past' occur in the 'past' time zone. The 'present' and 'future' time periods occur in the 'non-past' time zone.

If the tense matches the time zone, the verb is 'natural'. If they do not match, then the verb is 'unnatural'. Natural verbs can be taken at face value. Unnatural verbs require deeper analysis. An unnatural verb in the past tense is either hypothetical or is informing the listener that the speaker is less friendly than usual. An unnatural verb in the present tense informs the listener that the speaker is more friendly than usual.

In English teaching there is a structure described as a third conditional. All text books describe this as an hypothetical event in the past and all text books are wrong to do so. If the actions described by the verbs occur in the past of the past, then it is as likely that the condition has been met as it is that the condition in a first conditional (e.g. "If it rains, we will get wet.") will be met. Only third conditionals whose verbs relate to the non-past time zone are hypothetical.

That traditional grammar descriptions of tense are wrong can be easily seen from a line in a Bob Seger song, "I wish I did not know now what I did not know then". Traditional grammar describes both verbs as being 'past simple'. Yet they cannot have the same description because they have different meanings. They are more correctly descibed as 'non-past simple in the past tense' and 'past simple in the past tense' respectively. Meltis 19:46, 14 December 2006 (UTC) Mel Tisdale
 * I don't know about "more correctly"... I would say that the mood of the first "did not know" is subjunctive (and in the present tense) whereas that of the second is indicative (and in the past tense).  It just so happens that the forms of the present subjunctive and past indicative are the same.  With the verb "to be", I routinely (and "correctly") use different forms to distinguish these two, although I note that younger native speakers tend not to, which continues the process of convergence of the forms.  Thus I might say:  "I wish I were as oblivious now as I was then".  Even when the forms of the verbs are indistinguishable, the native speaker still recognises the difference between present subjunctive and past indicative.  This is clearly seen in the case of a contradiction:  "I wish it wasn't raining at the moment...but it isn't!" (not "wasn't").--ARAJ 14:07, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I wish the subjunctive weren't as hard as it seems to be. But it is, so there we are. :)


 * One could argue that the convergence of the forms indicates that speakers don't recognize (or no longer care about?) the distinction. --RJCraig 15:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * One could, were it not for the fact that the convergence, in English, is to a form that is almost always distinct from the basic form. A clear distinction is maintained between supposedly factual statements, like "it is raining", and parallel counter-factuals, like "I wish it weren't raining"/"I wish it wasn't raining".  The fact that divergent forms exist for the verb "to be" demonstrates that, in the minds of some speakers, this is not a simple past tense.  But, even if there were never any such distinction made, the fact would remain that a consistent distinction is made by the same speaker when making factual and counter-factual statements about the same state of affairs.  The time relationship is the same, but the form of the verb alters to reflect the difference in Grammatical mood:  "I do know now what I wish I didn't know now, because I did learn then what I wish I hadn't learned then"--ARAJ 20:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Clive gave away his wallet
In what tense is this sentence 41.114.251.211 (talk) 17:35, 24 January 2023 (UTC)