Talk:Terek Cossacks

Propaganda
There is some heavy bulls*it in this article. Mate either post some sources in support of "mass massacre" claims, or delete them. We've never seen mass graves of massacred ethnic russians found in Chechnya, but graves of killed civilian Chechens were found so far, ruthlessly slaughtered during the "anti-terrorist" operation (over 150,000 people, yeah talk about genocide). This Article is PROPAGANDA, telling just one, extremely biased, side of the story.
 * Unfortunately this "propaganda" is truth. Here is a simple census figure: 1989 Russians made up a quarter of Checheno-Ingushetia (over 300 thousand). Mostly in Grozny and in the northern Terek regions, by 1994 this figure dropped to under 50 thousand. In 2002 census the amount of Chechens rose to 1 million (from 730 thousand in 1989). Note that the exodus took place prior to the First Chechen War. --Kuban Cossack 09:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Salam Kuban Kazak, i agree with you on census figures(apart from 2002 figures, which are admit it my friend, extremely controversial and politically affected), relating to the drop in population of Cossacks in Chechnya. But you cannot just explain that by "ruthless massacres". If it is a fact, please facts from independend sources. 250,000 killed or expelled, is a massive figure, and if that really was a case, it would not have gone unnoticed. The question is...if ten's of thousands of people were killed, how come no mass graves found so far (The graves of murdered Chechens were)? And how come, according to human rights organisations over 30,000 ethnic russians died as the result of russian army bombardments of Grozny during the assault, if they all killed and expelled by Chechen Ressistance? Kuban_cossack lying, even about your enemies, does not do any honour to you. Salam.
 * Census of 2002 was contoversial? Not really all demographic organisations recognised it. Chechen resistance? Well if actions such as Budyonovsk, Kizlyar, Moscow Theatre seige and the slaughter of children in Beslan is resistance... shame on you!
 * Yes 250 thousand is a massive number, yet nonetheless it is the case. Human rights organisations like whom? Please source this. 250 thousand is a mass number, and I would use the term genocide, as recognised by the Russian Ministry of Culture as well as numerous material from the FSB, news releases and so on . As for Chechen graves? We are talking about Russians NOT Chechens, raise this question somewhere else. Last, but not least, I personally remember the early 1990s and the amount of refugees from Northern Chechnya shocked us then. I was too young to fight in the first Chechen war, but I volunteered to liberate Chechnya in the second Chechen war from the Ichkerian scum.
 * PS. Salam? In Russia we say Privet, so Privet.--Kuban Cossack 19:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
 * <<<<<<< First of all, lets make certain rules. Whenver any of us makes any claim, lets use support them by independent sources.
 * 1.Concerning the Census(here are just few examples)
 * (1).First of All the wikipedia article here(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya) states that the numbers are disputed
 * (2).Jamestown Foundation "...after the October 2002 census: Its figure of 1,088,000 clearly over counts the current residents of the republic, but it may approximate the total number of Chechen nationals in all of the Russian Federation. Census procedures permitted each person to record all his or her family members. The actual number of Chechen residents is less than 650,000 and perhaps closer to 550,000. Hence, the current electorate is probably between 250,000 and 350,000. The voter lists, however, included 540,000 people."
 * (3). Prague Watchdog "“The poll suggests that instead of falling during the war years, the population grew by almost 150 percent. In view of the great losses among civilians and massive migration of Chechens to other regions and republics of Russia, a natural rise of this scale is impossible.”"


 * Now give me the names of human rights organizations, WITH SOURCES, which acknowledged the census in Chechnya in 2002, as trustworthy and reliable.


 * 2. FSB documents and cossack website, cannot be under any circumstance classified as independent sources, and are, by definition, biased. Here is the Guidance for you, concerning the reliable sourcing, and if you don't support your statements and claims in the article in accordance with the Wiki rules, it might be removed.


 * 3.Genocide is the mass killing of a group of people as defined by Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG).
 * (1) Now prove that mass killing of ethnic russians/cossacks took place, making sure that you also prove that chechens were not dying, because only in this case we can say, that there was descriminate killing taking place on ethnic basis, but not difficult criminal situation within the republic, from which the population suffered as a whole, regardless of nationality.
 * (2) Mass immigration of ethnic cossacks, does not mean genocide took place. Not only cossacks, but Chechens were immigrating and fleeing their country too. Also Ethnic russians were immigrating from ALL former soviet republics, which became de-facto independent. For example:"In the new states of the former Soviet Union, much of the increase in ethnic homogeneity has been due to the return migration of more than 10 percent of the Russian diaspora population from the non-Russian states. The rate of return among the states varies considerably, ranging from 50 percent in the three Transcaucasus states and Tajikistan to barely 1 percent from Ukraine and Belarus"
 * 50% immigration...People were simply returning to their homeland and that does not mean that there was genocide of russian population in those countries too, does it?
 * Lastly, no offence, but when fighting in Chechnya you were not liberating anyone, but trying to enslave, genocide and get control for your "motherland" (which can hardly be defined as such, since throughout its history it used cossacks as pawns, sadly that's truth) over peoples that you seem to hate so much, while still copying their national dress - Cherkesskas and Beshmets, their traditions, and while populating their historical land, to which you have the same rights as Chechens living in Moscow for its land.
 * I sincerely advice you to get a hold of Tolstoy's amazing novels (if you have not read them already) "Cossacks", "Haji-Murat", and Lermontovs "Heroes of Our Time". ""Еще не родился такой человек, Чтоб горы уставить гробами, Чтоб сдвинуть Казбек дерзновенной рукой, Чтоб сделать ЧЕЧЕНЦЕВ рабами!'"
 * If you want to further discuss any of these topics with me, let me know, i will be glad to talk to reach a consensus with you.
 * Take Care, and peace be upon you and your family. Salam. Almansur.shishan >>>>>>>
 * People returning to their land? Terek Cossacks have been living there since the 16th century! They built the city of Grozny in the first place! Beshmets and Cherkesskas wrong again. Cherkesska have a read. Cossacks as pawns? Well we fight for our land and safeguard it against all invasions. That has been our life throughout history. In return we never payed taxes or were obliged anything apart from our service to the Empire.
 * Genocide on Chechens? They are responsible for starting the bloody conflict, for invading Dagestan in 1999. We simply took the chance and won back a territory that is de jure Russian. And nobody in Moscow is persecuting Chechens, quite the opposite, it is rediculous how many crimes they get away with compared to how the same authorities treat ordinary Russians.--Kuban Cossack 15:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Kuban_Cossack with all due respect....Cossacks are russian people, ethnic slavs, none of which national dress is anywhere close to the one, adopted by caucasian cossacks, which were copied from the Caucasian Mountaneers. Because before you forefathers settled in Caucasus, they did not wear this kind of clothes. True, Russians built the Grozny... but after massacring the villages on its site... Ermolov's tactics.
 * Secondly, my friend, i know that cossacks have been living, and quite peacefully, as friends, with chechens and other mountaneers, since 16th century and even earlier, till the point when imperial goverment decided to clash us. But Chechens are the aborigens of this land, known to be populating both terek lands and mountain areas since BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#History, even before the slavs migrated to europe.
 * Well that's how the second war began. But how about the first? My friend lets be true and honest to each other. Chechens used their right to declare freedom, but Russian armed forces intervened, trying to subdue the region.
 * Myself i've lived in Moscow for some time, and i remember myself the kind of descrimination i've been facing in my everyday life.
 * Peace be upon you, and your family.Almansur.shishan 13:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

The end of multi-ethnic Chechnya:

In another significant development, Chechnya has also lost almost all of its former non-Chechen population. At the end of the Soviet period, several hundreds of thousands of Chechnya's residents belonged to different ethnic groups - most of them Russians, but also Armenians, Ingush, Georgians, Ukrainians and many more, concentrated in the vibrant urban center of Grozny. This multi-ethnic Grozny has long ceased to exist. Under the separatist leadership of the pre-war period, many non-ethnic Chechens found themselves threatened by criminal elements and faced with an indifferent government that showed no intention to protect them. Many of the educated elites also lost their positions in government, industry and academia to locals connected with those in power. The ensuing exodus of some 300,000 non-ethnic Chechens represents the tragic end of a once peacefully diverse community and a dramatic brain-drain that continues to impede Chechnya's efforts to rebuild. The often negative experiences of Chechnya's former residents, exploited by Russian media and politicians, also became a major factor for anti-Chechen sentiment in Russia.

It's from here.

''The Chechnya Advocacy Network is a grass-roots not-for-profit organization with a horizontal structure and network member groups all over the US and Europe (see Our Structure). We are independent, non-partisan and non-denominational.''

So it's clearly not a pro-Russian source. Alaexis 16:28, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Under the separatist leadership of the pre-war period, many non-ethnic Chechens found themselves threatened by criminal elements and faced with an indifferent government that showed no intention to protect them
 * Alaexis, the source you've posted is reliable, and it just reinforces all my points. I totally agree with what you've posted. And this is what i was saying from the beginning. Non-ethnic population of Chechnya did face pressure, but from criminals, and the exodus, mentioned in the source above cannot be described as ruthless "massacres" Almansur.shishan 18:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That's why I've added a fact tag to the word massacres. Alaexis 19:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Aah) ok then) Thanks. Almansur.shishan 22:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The article should be edited by someone who speaks English, and does not subscribe to Soviet of Chechen propaganda. The article is full of poor grammar and political point scoring.203.184.41.226 (talk) 20:42, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

POV
Including statements such as "ruthlessly massacred" without a reliable source backing it is a violation of WP:NPOV. Both nationalities (Russians and Chechens) experienced population loss because of the war. Russians had the support of powerful Russian federal army and portraying them as helpless victims is twisting the facts. Aminullah 07:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This took place in 1990-94 before the first Chechen war, it was a systematic attack on the Russian minority. In 1989 the Russians made up nearly a third of the population, 300 thousand people. In 2002 there was only 40 thousand or so left. At the same time the Chechen population increased. It is called genocide. --Kuban Cossack 09:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not massacre, but Ethnic Cleansing !
First, the facts:

1- The Soviet Chechen Republic included not only Chehcen historical territories, south from Terek River (Right Bank) but also Cossak Host territories, north from the Terek River (Left Bank). As a matter of fact, in order to dillute the Chechen population, Stalin included the Left Bank Area into the Soviet Autonomous Republic of the Chechen and Ingush.

2- During the Soviet regime, many Russians settled in Checheya, especially in Grozny and other Right Bank areas. But also many Chechen settled in the Left Bank, among Russians. In 1989, the Russian population of the Republic was 23%.

3- During the regime of Djohar Dudaev, the criminal gangs forced most of the 200.000 Russians to flee.

4- More Russians had to flee during the two wars in Chechenya.

5- Today, the Russians are less than 4% of the population of Chechenya.

Responsibilities:

1- The regime of Dudaev is the principal responsible, because the majority of the Russians left Chechenya during his mandate. As legal authority, HE had the task to stop the criminal gangs and protect the minority population. Everywhere in this World, the Governments are having the responsibility to protect the minorities in the face of harrasment, ethnic cleansing and other kind of violence. And Dudaev regime failed to protect the Russians.

2- In ALL the countries affected by ethnic cleansings of the minorities (Croatia, Israel, Kosovo, Bosnia, Algeria, etc) the actions of ethnic cleansing where done by different criminal gangs, paramilitary, nationalists, islamists, etc BUT with the approval and with the non-interventionist policy of the official regimes. Of course, the REAL criminal is the regime who did not sent the army to stop the gangs. In Chechnya's case, the Dudaev regime did NOT sent the army to protect the Russians, thereby Dudaev and his regime are clearly guilty of ethnic cleansing.

3- In the Baltic States, Moldova, etc., the local regimes protected the minorities from ethnic cleansing and assumed full responsibility for them protection. Some Russians left, but because of economic reasons, not because of widespread persecution and violence, like in Chechenya.

Solutions:

1- The Russian refugees must receive reparations from the Checehn government and their property must be fully restored.

2- The gang members must pay for the ethnic cleansing activities and should be put to trial.


 * Whilst I agree with you on some points, I kindly ask that you do not turn wikipedia into a political rant. Therefore please withhold making such comments per WP:NPOV --Kuban Cossack 12:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, this is not an biased opinion or a particular point of wiew. This is the rationale and the DEMOCRATIC way of thinking here, in the European Union. Sorry if I offended anyone who is not European.... Good wishes for all, user: Transsylvanian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Transsylvanian (talk • contribs) 19:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Not just Russians were subject to "criminal gangs" also chechens. They simply left the chaotic republic because nobody would want to stay there at the time. - PietervHuis (talk) 03:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not quite, having myself spoke to hundreds of refugees, those criminal gangs all originated back in the Soviet times, Chechen families would be encouraged to settle among the Cossacks in the northern stanitsas, then when they formed more than half percent of the population they would begin to harass the Cossacks, initially with minor provacations, a loot here, a beating there. Then it would intesify, a stabbing, a rape. When Dudayev came into power all hell broke loose. The ethnic Cossacks and Russians (250 thousand people!) did not flee because of "criminal gangs" considering that Dudayev's militsiya was aiding the "gangs" they fled because of the ethnic cleansing that was unleashed upon them. I know a family who wanted to sell their apartment, and the local paper openly told them that you are a Russian family, noone will pay you anything they will just enter in there and force you out, that was 1992. --Kuban Cossack 12:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Those are your personal sources. Let me remind you that thousands of Russians were killed by Russian artillery, so they certainly hadn't all fled the republic. Besides is that your idea of "genocide" the way you describe it in your profile? Let me quote for you:

By mid-1944, tension between Cossacks and Chechens, stoked by elements in the upper levels of the Russian government, had reached a never-fever pitch: "On 5 August," the newspaper Moskovskie novosti reported, "a pogrom was carried out at the Chechen farmsteds of the village Galyuganovskaya, Stavropol' krai, which is on the border with Chechnya... On the fifth, there arrived Cossacks - not local ones - and people in camouflage military uniforms. They beat everyone who crossed their path, put people up against a wall, robbed them, and ripped earrings out of the ears of young girls and women. Seventeen-year-old Viskhan Pashaev was killed by two shots to the head... They tried to abduct the daughter of one woman, and by a miracle she managed to plead with them to let her go... The Cossacks shouted loudly that they submit only to Yeltsin".

I could be mistaken of course, but this sounds a bit more cruel than Dudayev refusing to pay pensions to Russian families. - PietervHuis (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Mid-1944? During the Second World War? Did you compose the quote yourself? Here is actual evidence: and work your way through parts two, three and four, real survivours of the genocide showing their tales. Yes I agree that the Russian authorities in mid 1990s failed their people, especially after signing of the humiliating Kasavyurt accord considering that we had an edge militarily finally. --Kuban Cossack 21:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I had to type it over, it's supposed to say Mid-1994, my bad.
 * I can't understand Russian so I can't do much with that link. What I do know is that Russian media isn't know for their nuanced, neutral and fair analysis of situations, no offence of course... - PietervHuis (talk) 21:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't understand Russian!? Yet you consider yourself to be such an expert in the field... How interesting? I do know that if you use sources like Kavkazcenter or Alkavkaz (which you do!) then you can forget about neutrality, what I also know is that officially no body in the west ever commented on Russian media being biased, especially considering that if they really did broadcast the truth about Russians in Chechnya, then there would a Kondopoga nationwide immediately. So its in their interest of "tolerance" to the Chechens to downplay such events. Which is why its particularly bad for the ethnic Russian refugees. --Kuban Cossack 21:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Way to start getting insulting. You expect me to wake up some day and known fluent Russian all of a sudden? Do you think the caucasus conflict in wikipedia is only to written by Russians who are veterans from the Chechen War like you? I'm from the west and I have acces to a huge library of books concerning the history of Russia. No I don't learn from rebel websites, I learn from writers, historicans and respected journalists, and I can assure you in the west everyone is convinced the Russian government has a huge amount of control of pretty much all Media outlets. - PietervHuis (talk) 23:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

255,000
Where's the figure from? I'm curious btw, the cossacks settled on whole the Terek river, in ossetia and kabardino-balkaria as well. How come no large communities survived there? Because of Stalin?- PietervHuis (talk) 03:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
 * First of all because the Terek River effectively forms the largely the northern border of the tow republics. Second there are large Terek Cossacks communities in Mozdok and Vladikavkaz, same with northern Kabardia. Also Stalin actually restored the historic province of the Rowing Cossacks, the Kizlyar District, and the Naursky and Shelkovsky districts of Chechnya, as well as the Terek-Sunzha river basin (which was the historic districts of Terek Cossacks) by forming the Grozny Oblast. Most of the ethnic Chechen districts began just south of the Sunzha. Have a look yourself . That was 18th century. --Kuban Cossack 12:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

From the books I read the area between Suncha and Terek was inhabited by chechens and some other sort of cossacks who intermixed with them. The Terek Cossacks settled north of the river Terek. - PietervHuis (talk) 21:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well which books are they? The map shows an uninhabited void, but in the early 20th century during the time of the Soviet Mountain Republic the Terek Cossacks had their own Sunzha Cossack District right in that gap: ru:Изображение:Горская АССР.png. --Kuban Cossack 21:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes that gap is exactly where Grozny was built during the Caucasian Wars, and chechens kept away from there most of the time. But if you look close on the first map you also see chechens were settled near the banks of the Terek river surrounding the gap. I have no idea how many cossacks actually lived in Chechnya at the start, I do know they weren't very wanted and loved to rob people, but Chechens lived in the mountains since 10,000 BC, so I think the odds are high theyve left the mountains before. - PietervHuis (talk) 21:40, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Please spare us of your anti-Russian POV. Cossacks DEFENDED Russia from being repeatedly robbed by the likes of Marauding Chechens, Crimean Tatars and the Nogais. The Gap's southern border was the Sunzha line, built by Yermolov, prior to the 16th century which was when the Cossacks migrated, the Nogais lived in the north, and the Chechens still geographically were only in the earliest phase of their national consiounce. I do know that visibly the Terek Cossacks look much more closer to Vainakhs than to Slavs, I guess the "robbing" included swapping brides and living amongst one another, as stated here: Вот и мне так подумалось: что за Чечня без казаков? Ведь сколько лет вместе живем, обратились, переженились, мало, чем отличаемся, друг от друга и формой одежды и привычками... значит, и к свободе нам идти вместе мирным, цивилизованным путем, овладевая знаниями и прогрессом.--Kuban Cossack 21:47, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh really, according to who? Russian news channels? Propaganda clips on youtube? Let me quote for you: ''The Terek cossacks often remained undisciplined, often attacking the Muslim population whom Moscow wished to concilate: A gramota (a message) of the voievod Andrei Khvorostynin of 7 sept. 1589 describes the trade between the Lesser Nogay Horde Kazievskii Ulus and the Kumyks of the Shamkhalat that Moscow wanted to attach at the time. The gramota notes that in spite of absolute prohibition the Terek Cossacks plundered Nogays who traded with the Kumyks.'' I guess that's their way of defending Russians who lived miles away?

Yeah they did adapt to culture, but still spoke Russian as their prime language and remained christian. During the Caucasian War they helped occupy Chechen lands. It seems useless to discuss this with you though, everything I say is "anti-Russian POV" while you however seem a bit too proud of your herritage. So I'll stick with the article. The way I wrote is a lot less POV. The massacre of Grozny, if related, is unsourced. The "repeated opression" is misquoted, and that source even says "The often negative experiences of Chechnya's former residents, exploited by Russian media and politicians, also became a major factor for anti-Chechen sentiment in Russia". The way I wrote it down is less POV. - PietervHuis (talk) 23:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

photograph
I found this cool photograph maybe we can add it? - PietervHuis (talk) 02:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Settling the disputes
From extensive readings and rewiew of many articles, is emerging a general image of what happened in these areas of conflict. These evolutions are originating from the societal developments inside the Russian (Cossak) and inside the Chechen communities.

Since many centuries, the Chechen and the rest of the Caucasian highlanders where confined into the areas south of Kuban and Terek rivers because of the repeated raids of the warlike stepe populations (scythians, turkic, etc). The Russian expansion toward south replaced the sparse population of nomadic tatars and nogay with Cossak hosts. The Terek Cossak Host was established in 1580 and the Kuban Cossak Host was established in 1792-93. Therefore, the TRADITIONAL lands of the Caucasian populations are SOUTH from the above mentioned rivers.

The Soviet delimitation of the Caucasian Autonomous Republics and Districts (Oblasty) provided for these territorial districts some lowland areas, BEYOND the Kuban - Terek line, populated by Russian -speaking Cossaks and peasants, in order to dillute the overal Caucasian populations of each Republic or District. But in time, because the Caucasians where socially and politically marginalized and because the Muslim traditions, the demographic explosion of these populations pushed the Russians out. In fact, the settlement of Caucasians in traditional northen Cossak areas, the extensive un-employment and the aparition of the criminal gangs, the low education level of the Caucasians, the avaliability of large numbers of young men for criminal activities, for the independence war in Chechenya and for the Jihad in all Northern Caucasus, are all the DIRECT EFFECT of this demographic explosion.

In time of war, the demographic push from Chechens toward the Russians ACCELERATED and took the form of an extensive ETHNIC CLEANSING. Of course, some educated (integrated into the mainstream society) or peaceful Chechens had to flee too, but 80% of the Chechen REMAINED inside the Republic. Meantime, 86% of the Russians had to flee Checenya!!!

Of course, the local Russians are not "peaceful doves" and some Russian men participated in the war against the Checehns. Moreover, during the last 150 years, the Russian State marginalized the Chechens and they are mostly responsible for the backwardness of this people, for the misery and for the human undevelopment of this proud community. Marginalizing a community backfires ! And it happened not only in Russia, but in many other parts of the World, and I can provide many examples for that.

Of course, some wikipedia members can support the thesis of the "Evil Russian State" and downplay the sufferings of the Russians from Checehnya, but this position is obviousely against the truth AND NON ACADEMIC. BUT the issue here is the faith of the POPULATIONS, not the faith of some warlike individuals. Any statement deniyng the ethnic cleansing of the Russians are obviousely biased, against the common sense, against the statistical data and un-democratic.

Regards, Transsylvanian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 (talk) 11:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually 40% of Chechya's prewar population had been internally displaced and lived in refugee camps or overcrowded villages. Thousands of Russians also fled later on simply because its a war region or were killed by Russian artillery, not because of chechens. Most of them lived in Grozny which became the most destroyed city since dresden. Anyway its not up to us to decide what is or isnt ethnic cleansing, thats a case for historicans and stuff, not own research.
 * but speaking of ethnic cleansing, the russians sure loved cleansing chechens away. during the caucasian war they were pushed southwards and after the caucasian war a large percentage had to leave the republic, after the failed mountaineous republic, after they were deported by stalin and many died, and when they returned and werent allowed to stay in grozny following the grozny riots. Even today the racism in Russia is so ridicolously high that they are practically chased away from the rest of Russia.
 * Today about 7% of Chechnya is non-chechen which isnt an unhealthy number, and many are allowed to return (kadyrov said so). Surprisingly they simply dont want to, because well... grozny is gone.- PietervHuis (talk) 11:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Past tense
In the International reaction to the 2008 South Ossetia war article, reference is made to the ataman of the Terek Cossacks. So why is this whole article in the past tense, if the Terek Cossacks Host still exists? Scolaire (talk) 18:35, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

It´s mentioned in the beginning of the article that during early times and even up the present day, that many Ossetians are/were part of the Terek Cossacks, is that correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.114.90 (talk) 03:08, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Even Russians themselves know its not ethnic cleansing
Dzhokkar Dudayev's WIFE was Russian. Ethnic cleansing of Russians? Genocide? So she should've been killed or fled too, right? Lol.

Dudayev actually suppressed anti-ethnic Russian sentiment (not anti-Russian sentiment, directed at the state rather than the people). The last thing he wanted was his country being destabilized by ethnic feuding.

And, for some comments from some ethnic Russians themselves on this matter- the economists Boris Lvin and Andrei Iliaronov-some Russians themselves noting the ridiculousness of these nationalistic claims:

The Chechen authorities are regularly accused of crimes against the population, especially the Russian-speaking people. However, before the current war the emigration of the Russian-speaking population from Chechnya was no more intense than that from Kalmykia, Tuva and Sakha-Yakutia. In Grozny itself there remained a 200,000 strong Russian-speaking population which did not hasten to leave it.

...so let's leave aside our propagandistic insistence on how Chechens "ethnically cleansed" Russians. And let's turn our attention to the fact that 4 out of 5 Russians in Chechnya lived in Grozny, which was bombed flat to the ground by the government and military of their ethnic kin. Of course, Russian politicians don't like to admit this, and prefer to paint it as the latest atrocity by the Chechens... even though they couldn't wipe the Russians from Chechnya if they tried, in light of the privileged economic position and the international response if they attempted such a thing (contrasting with how much Russia has managed to get away with due to its position as a UN security member). So, please, don't make me read this again.

And yes, I understand that them being Russians does not make them pro-Russian. Dzhabrail Gakayev claims to be Chechen and often backs the Russian government on issues. But there's a key difference here: Gakayev is in the pay of the Russian government (literally, his job is in it) whereas Iliaronov and Lvin have no connection whatsoever to the Chechen government and much the opposite, as both have had years where they worked in the Russian government. Lvin and Iliaronov are not knee-jerk anti-Russonationalists, they are simply reasonable economists who try to see things through clear glasses.--Yalens (talk) 16:15, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

desyatinas?
Why on earth are we giving the area in obsolete imperial Russian units of measurement? Shouldn't we be converting to square kilometers and/or square miles? john k (talk) 17:27, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Early History section questionable
See footnotes in North Caucasus Line. There may be a proper study in Russian, but book-length English language sources are vague and contradictory. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 16:52, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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