Talk:Terence McKenna/Archive 2

Philosopher
Why is this man listed as a philosopher when he has no training in philosophy, wrote nothing even remotely formally philosophical, and has no publications in peer reviewed philosophy journals? What is wikipedia's policy on listing someone as a philosopher? Is it being used as a catch all for any 'thinker'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.157.53 (talk) 09:37, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

This comment presupposes a very narrow concept of philosopher. Did Friedrich Nietzsche have any training in philosophy, write anything even remotely formally philosophical, and have any publications in peer reviewed philosophy journals? Yet he is widely acknowledged as one of the most important and influential philosophers of the 19th C. Like Nietzche, Terence McKenna wrote books in which he criticized the unspoken assumptions of modernity. And was Ludwig Wittgenstein a "philosopher" in this narrow sense? According to the WP entry, "Wittgenstein ... was an Austrian-British philosopher ... In his lifetime, he published just one book review, one article [on music?], a children's dictionary, and the 75-page Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus". No "publications in peer reviewed philosophy journals". Not all philosophers are academic philosophers, and McKenna's talks and writings criticizing the assumptions of the modern worldview (such as that modern science is the final authority on what comprises 'reality') have contributed at least as much to an intelligent understanding of our world as anything which has come out of any academic philosophy department (which is not to say that academic philosophers never contribute anything of value to such an understanding). Peter Meyer (TWZ author) (talk) 03:34, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

A good question; one among many. It's been raised previously; and made clear - it won't be answered. Only argued with. Wiki policy & practice seem to provide no effective way to resolve issues created by devoted fans of an inspirational icon, who see wiki as a golden opportunity to aggrandize and spin. Wiki hands off editing responsibilities to whoever, self-appointed. So, driven fan interest easily prevails over pov-neutrality, balance or integrity of info. And wiki ends up serving a hagiography, territorially curated by PR handlers of the charismatic personality, figurehead of a 'Terence McKenna movement' (they dislike the word 'cult'). Note he's cited as not only a philosopher, but ethnobotanist too. And likewise, that can't be remedied under operant circumstances. Even though he conducted no research, had no qualifications to, and no publications in any ethnobotany source or journal - only jungle exploits and sensational stories touted as 'study' by his following. They tend toward Humpty Dumpty premise: "Who's to be master of meaning - a word, or the one using it?" Compare the true-to-form retort your question got (Mar 30, above), with this one - about 'botanist' (not 'philosopher'): "I feel that the word 'botanist' can have a variety of non-specific meanings. We must realise that just because the oxford english dictionary or ... or wikipeadia defines botany in a certain way it doesn't mean that we have to follow that particular definition." Note too the glaring exclusion of any/all critiques (there are many, and telling) of McKenna's purported theorizing/philosophizing and 'ideas.' The curators of this entry seem pretty determined to dictate and control its content, for the 'right message.'   Your question is well posed, deserves answer. But it would take subpoena - between lack of editorial boundaries, and the determination of a movement to use wiki for gilding and glorifying their icon's name and claim to fame - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akersbp (talk • contribs) 12:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)


 * It's ridiculous the amount of subjects that get attached to Terence McKenna in the lead and the infobox. I deleted "self-described anarchist, anti-materialist, environmentalist, feminist, Platonist and skeptic" from this article a couple years ago. Now he's a "researcher, teacher, lecturer, and writer"; which is a fairly redundant list of occupations (you can't be a researcher/teacher without lecturing and/or writing). The infobox lists 17 "Main Interests", and some of them are pretty questionabe. "Technological singularity"? I suppose Timewave Zero describes a singularity of some sort, but is it a technological singularity? The infobox says he influenced Timothy Leary???  I haven't read Leary or McKenna exhaustively, but as far as I'm aware, they barely acknowledge each other (and if there's influence, it's more likely Leary (who was working earlier) influenced McKenna). The interests/influence cruft needs to go; the philosopher infobox should be replaced with a standard Person infobox.Plantdrew (talk) 03:56, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The comment above by 'Akersbp' is presumably by Brian P. Ackers, notorious for conducting a vendetta against Terence McKenna in his various long-winded (and boring) tirades via Amazon book reviews, Reality Sandwich and the McKenna Forum (in the latter case, via the sockpuppet MRockatansky). In his comment above he has invented a non-existent "Terence McKenna movement", and consistently attempts to portray the many admirers of Terence McKenna as "cultists" -- see, for example, his remarks here. As the author of a book on psilocybin mushrooms, he seems to have a bad case of McKenna-envy.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Meyer (TWZ author) (talk • contribs) 04:22, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Lashing out, sounds like chips are down after crash of that fan-website gambit - by friendly fire, snagged on its own line. Jonesing too eagerly after a free wiki ad, without due diligence on wiki policy (is 'fan' short for fanatic?). Apropos of 'Brian P. Ackers' [sic] - small world Seems your crestfallen fan site was first brought to BPA attention by an internet post, replying to a BPA article. (www.realitysandwich.com/terence_mckennas_stoned_apes#comment-134468): “...in terms of the alleged 'cultism' surrounding the late Mr. Mckenna I thought I might refer to a contemporary example of what, I think, Mr. Akers is referring to - http://mckennaforum.com/forum/mckenna-forum-group1/terence-mckenna-forum... “That article, btw, is just one of many on TM that the Followers, or Believers (or whatever) try to act like doesn't even exist. Its not 'inspiring' enough, and too revealing, especially for their "Operation Wikipedia" purposes. A BPA quote from the same piece, noteworthy in context: "A few years ago, Wikipedia's entry for TM (which seemingly reflects ongoing tampering to keep a properly celebratory, uncritical tone) stated 'stoned apes' has 'been largely ignored by the very scientists whose research could possibly substantiate it.'" (intriguing observation: current wiki edit for TM refers to a "collaborator" named "Peter Meyer" - any relation?

Same article (per the above PM -> BPA ad hominem), posted reply quote: "Akers effectively shows McKenna's 'theorizing' to be problematic. Many of the arguments McKenna presented, for example about the effect of psilocybin on visual acuity, are based in fraudulent claims ... Interesting too, the feedback to Akers at Reality Sandwich ... often distinctly hostile, which further shows (Akers' criticism) that, whatever McKenna's objective, it has become cult-like (Kultinomaisella) ... I've also heard he's charismatic as is common for cult leaders (kulttijohtajat)" https://tietoiseen.fi/foorumi/index.php?topic=777.15

Apropos of the comment by 'Plantdrew'. McKenna was personal friends with Leary and acknowledged him on very many occasions. Timothy Leary introduced McKenna at a lecture in California (possibly Esalen?) as "one of the five or six most important people on the planet." This is actually in the Wikipedia article. His ideas about the Timewave would more accurately describe his 'singularity' as a singularity of 'novelty' and he was quite clear that in modern culture, technology drives novelty and inturn the singularity we are heading towards would be a technological one. And just to add my opinion on it, McKenna absolutely was a philosopher. If you have ever heard him speak, or read his discourses that aren't narratives its patently obvious that his is talking ontology, theology and history. I can't see any real basis for counting him out of the Philosopher camp when the majority of his listeners and readers would frame him as such. I think that counts more than whether someone with a checklist does. 122.60.120.107 (talk) 04:14, 2 June 2013 (UTC)Amadeus

Stop screwing up this page, Brian!
On May 18 this Talk page had the following sections:

1 Reclaim Your Mind Video on YouTube 2 Novelty Theory: Final3211 3 Edit request on 2 November 2012 4 Philosopher 5 Edit request -- Timewave Zero software screenshot 6 Edit request -- Replacement of intro picture of TMcK On May 24, after editing by Akersbp (Brian Akers) it had these sections:

1 Reclaim Your Mind Video on YouTube 2 Novelty Theory: Final3211 3 Edit request on 2 November 2012 4 Edit request -- Timewave Zero software screenshot 5 Edit request -- Replacement of intro picture of TMcK Brian Akers took the earlier Section 4 "Philosopher" and placed it within Section 3 "Edit request on 2 November 2012" and in addition added a comment beginning "That article [which article, Brian?], btw, is just one of many on TM that the Followers, or Believers (or whatever) try to act like doesn't even exist." which runs off the page at the right. Clearly he doesn't know how to edit a WP page, and his incompetence is screwing up this Talk page (as well as treating us to his puerile anti-McKanna tirades). It is not my responsibility to correct Akers' incompetence. Perhaps some more experienced WP editor would care to do so. Peter Meyer (TWZ author) (talk) 10:46, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Restored Philosopher section, and brought a couple further comments out of a quote box. The further comments are unsigned; I'm not sure how to add signatures of other editors.Plantdrew (talk) 15:23, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks to the editor who 'de-bugged' (with regret the glitch-disgruntled was apparently incompetent to fix it himself). As a quote above reflects, from www.realitysandwich.com/terence_mckennas_stoned_apes (one among various sources forcibly disallowed for ref by the 'inspired'), Operation Wikipedia, the movement's controlling interest in this entry - has long been noted. Ditto, its anti-social 'values,' ad hominem 'friends or foe?' protocol, aggression, ulterior tactical aims and methods, etc. I did not realize, till the last outburst of temper and insolence, that even this Talk page is subject to its dictates and whims. Per the avatar "Brianing" - as if personally acquainted - its Dr. Akers, Ph.D. thank you. Qualified specialist in plant & fungal biology, systematics, also ethno- & archeo- contexts (subjects TM raided, ripped off, wrapped himself in) - with scientific pubs, peer-reviewed (in journals including ECONOMIC BOTANY). The hyping of TM by his self-deputized handlers - 'philosopher, researcher, ethnobotanist' etc etc and etc - is a never-ending story spun from pseudoscience, schizo-apocalyptic prophecies, pretense and posturing. Its as incorrigible as 'Scientific' creationism, or Madame Cleo. Its exploitation, and likewise deliberate deception. With due thanks to editor Plantdrew. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akersbp (talk • contribs) 15:22, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit semi-protected request
According to McKenna, this effect would have definitely proven to be of evolutionary advantage to humans' omnivorous hunter-gatherer ancestors that would have stumbled upon it "accidentally"; as it would make it easier for them to hunt and easier to avoid those which hunted them.

J1j11j (talk) 01:14, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- SamX‧☎‧✎‧ S  15:28, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

About the section of this entry in question - in case there's any reasonable possibility it might be officially WP-addressed/edited:

In his ‘stoned apes’ act (FOOD OF THE GODS, esp. pp 24-25), McKenna invoked research by Fischer et al – in vague fashion, for his purposes (self-promo). He falsified findings as reported in articles he ‘name-dropped’ - blatantly. Since his ‘admirers’ promote and defend his ‘’version’ of that work with fierce loyalty - this section (present edit) proves deeply inaccurate and misleading. Viz. the following, syntactically torturous passage - dodgy, as if on purpose (?):

“He based his theory on the main effects, or alleged effects, produced by the mushroom. One of the effects that comes about from the ingestion of low doses, which agrees with one of scientist Roland Fischer's findings from the late 1960s-early 1970s,[27] is it significantly improves the visual acuity of humans.”:

In view of WP purposes and interests: here are 3 key points - readily amenable to independent verification by merely consulting lit he fallaciously cited, toward possible edit fix (if WP-requested I’ll email pdfs of Fischer & associates studies):

1) Apart from riddles like how an effect might ‘agree with’ a finding (?): Which of Fischer’s ‘findings’ does the above excerpt pretend to mean? Rather than guess, I conclude its verbal fog machinery. Because in reality, no ‘improvement of visual acuity’ – the supposed “main effect” on which “he based his theory” -has ever been reported. Not at any dose, in any study – especially [27], one McKenna pinned this donkey tale on.:

2) The “low dose” wordblot is ‘smoke and mirror’ – empty allusion. What ‘low dose’? How many µg/kg? Its never specified, in any source promoting this ‘infaux.’ Nor has the question, so basic, ever even been raised. Especially by ‘concerned parties’ - those telling and re-telling this story as as if true or factual.:

3) Beyond overt falsity of “improved visual acuity” (and guessing games of which “finding” and what “low dose”) – Fischer et al didn’t even study ‘low dose’ effects. Especially in article(s) McKenna and ‘admirers’ i.e, devotees, pretend to reference. Here’s dosage range, research-sourced (Wackermann J, M Wittmann, F Hasler, FX Vollenweider, 2008. Effects of varied doses of psilocybin ... Neuroscience Newsletters 345: 51-55):

12 µg/kg = Very Low Dose (VLD) 115 µg/kg = Medium Dose 250 µg/kg = High Dose:

As reported in [27] - not McKenna and Co.(!) – the dosage Fischer et al used to study effects was ... 160 µg/kg (compare with the range values): Amid lively ‘explanations’ of TM’s ‘ideas’ - Fischer’s pubs aren’t quoted. The claims are parroted, never substantiated. Apparently, the lit – so vital to the ‘theory’ - has never even been consulted by any enthusiasts of stoned apes, i.e., of McKenna.:

“I felt if I could ... convince people that drugs were responsible for large brain size ... get drugs insinuated into a scenario of human origins, I would cast doubt on the whole paradigm of Western Civilization. So, it was consciously propaganda ...” (http://deoxy.org/t_mondo2.htm):

“Since I feel pretty much around friends and fringies here, it doesn’t trouble me to confess, my book FOOD OF THE GODS, I really conceived of as an intellectual Trojan horse. Written as though it were a scientific study – citations to impossible-to-find books and so forth* ... simply to ‘assuage’ academic anthropologists ... THE IDEA IS - to leave this thing on their doorstep; rather like an abandoned baby, or Trojan horse” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuhrhT8Z5QA):

To Whom It May Concern, rightfully: Please direct this to any WP admins, in case of question. With thanks to conscientious editors – Sam X, I’ve consulted your listed contributions, and entry you wrote.Akersbp (talk) 19:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC) akersbp

Needs to include the vast amount of public talks mckenna gave
I have looked at a lot of philosophers from the 1970's to 2000's and I don't think that any have surpassed the number of recording of what they as Mckenna. If you check the now recently compiled youtube accounts that list all his talks he is approaching over 600 recorded talks that are now online (youtube, and various other websites) for all to listen to. Mckenna used to describe himself as a warhorse of the lecture circuit, so I think his propensity for huge amounts of recorded and documented speeches deserves a mention here, maybe under a new subsection. There are literally thousands of edits on mckenna talks by all sorts of people online and on youtube, I think that his impact in this area deserves a mention, possibly with links to some of the channels that have archived all of his public talks. I think a lot of his ideas go a lot deeper than this wikipedia implies, and most of that content is in his other talks. Is linking to the archives of his speeches a fair use of a wikipedia page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeuzzz (talk • contribs) 13:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Reclaim Your Mind Video on YouTube
This video is being circulated widely right now (1/26/07) Could somone make reference to this video and what larger spoken word performance this came from? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARIG-BQRATs
 * It was from his talk "scientific evolution and the archaic revivial" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZcWzQKs2j8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeuzzz (talk • contribs) 13:23, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Misinfo about McKenna's education
Reference this passage (current edit), "Studying and Traveling" section:

"In 1972, McKenna returned to Berkeley to finish his studies.[6] There he decided to switch majors to a Bachelor of Science in ecology and conservation, in a then new experimental section of the same university called the Tussman Experimental College.[2]"

The 1st sentence is just wrong. How did that misinfo originate, where'd it come from? Following its magic thread - [6] - leads to a dead end, a manequin (^ a b c d e f Template:Cite weblast=Martin). Conclusion – fog, untraceable. Another unsolvable mystery, posed as info for WP readers. Where was TM the year after his Amazon exploits, then? Here's TM (TRUE HALLUCINATIONS, Chap 17), on his 1972 whereabouts and doings: “A year after the events at La Chorrera ... spring of 1972, I was in Boulder, Colorado ... Dennis and I were working together on ... THE INVISiBLE LANDSCAPE, and spending a lot of time at the university library.”

The 2nd sentence again, wrong. Doubly, two interwoven false strands. First, as the TRUE HALLU quote above reflects, he was in Colorado, not California - nor enrolled in any program. Second, the Tussman Experiment (of which TM was indeed a subject) – ran from 1965-1969. The experimental college wasn’t even open - much less “then new” (?) - in 1972. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tussman_Experimental_College) Again, the citation, [2] - posed as if source for such claims - appears either clueless, or a prank. Unlike [6], [2] is a real source, at least. But it neither states nor implies any such thing. What TM says in [2] is, he “arrived at Berkeley the year after the Free Speech Movement.”

A brief TRUE HALLU passage likewise reflects: “Vanessa and I had been student radicals together at Berkeley from 1965-1967. We were part of the Experimental College at Berkeley, but in 1968 I went to New York ...” (p. 20).Akersbp (talk) 15:57, 21 August 2013 (UTC) akersbp

Misinfo about McKenna stopping the use of psilocybin
Read the description and uploader comments in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO3LlYzQU4g

Terence: "At first I cut back on Cannabis, because it seemed to trigger the seizures. But then I easily got that corrected. Now I'm smoking as much dope as I ever did. I haven't been taking ayahuasca, because the vomiting reflex is too scary in terms of the brain seizure reflex. They're really closely related. So I've been taking psilocybin. We happen to have some actual pure psilocybin, not mushrooms. And it's great. So I guess the answer is no. I want to probe into it, I want to understand it. I mean obviously, death is a very big deal."

The excerpt is from this 1999 interview with McKenna: http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v10n2/10206mck.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:D:4800:660:D850:E64B:264C:3797 (talk) 07:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

--- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bellynests (talk • contribs) 22:21, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the misinfo from the wiki. The original source (Dennis Mckenna's book - The Brotherhood of the Screaming Abyss) contains no reference to Terence Mckenna's 'existential crisis'. 

---

I've just checked the edit history and can see that the paragraph in question has been removed and reinstated several times. I'd advise those involved to actually READ Dennis's book (the original source quoted by Bruce Damer in his 'Deep Dive'). As previously stated, the information regarding Terence Mckenna's psilocybin use was removed prior to the books release. Bellynests (talk) 22:48, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * No idea what this is about, but the "existential crisis" happened to his brother, not himself. Viriditas (talk) 10:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Cleaning up
I removed the Novelty theory section because it was infested with an unknown amount of nonsense added by socks of this banned user,


 * Sockpuppet_investigations/8i347g8gl/Archive
 * Sockpuppet_investigations/Antichristos/Archive

It's really crazy stuff ("gravitoelectrical treeing", "flux tubes", etc.) which doesn't match the sources and has little relation to the article. An older version of the section possibly contains uninfected material, however it's largely unsourced and seems to include original research. vzaak 20:09, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Note there may well be more of this unsourced nonsense in the article; I only removed an obvious chunk of it. vzaak 20:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for cleaning this up Vzaak I have attempted to create a more coherent and factual section on novelty theory Screamliner (talk) 19:18, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm curious about this value judgement of this section, and possibly others, as "nonsense". If the subject is well known for a theory, it's not the job of an editor to judge its content, only to report it faithfully. I might consider the entire content of the Bible to be "nonsense", yet I would accurately report what it said on a subject if an article called for it.Rosencomet (talk) 23:26, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I said unsourced nonsense. It's original research. And it's nonsense. Incredibly, someone has restored the nonsense. Just look at that link. None of the sources mention "gravitoelectrical treeing", "flux tubes", etc. The views of McKenna are not being faithfully reported. For example the sources suggest nothing remotely close to "when two matter waves become connected by mutual constructive interference (quantum entanglement, rapport), they imagine or grok each other". This is the same foolishness that was added to other articles (see the first sockpuppet report above). The McKenna article was vandalized. The vandal is a banned sockpuppeteer who is an actual crazy person. Please don't restore this unsourced original research again.


 * P.S. For another dose of crazy by the same guy, see this:"The redshiftedness of the Mongoloids and the blueshiftedness of the Jews imply that they are the broad Epimethean and narrow Promethean parts of the same funnel-shaped gravity well."


 * Fucking nuts! vzaak 07:04, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Vzaak the section which keeps being restored is unsourced and original research and I agree that the views of McKenna are not being faithfully reported. I have listened to and read a lot of his work and and I have not heard him describe novelty theory in such a overly complex and incoherent manner, plus the section tells the reader little to do with how the theory was formulated or the mathematics underpinning it. In my opinion it is poorly written and confusing. I would argue that this is much more coherent and detailed edit However there is definitly some room in this edit for McKenna's speculations on what novelty theory meant in 'real terms' (i.e. 'the hyper dimensional object at the end of time' and how it was affecting the historical process, the planet, humans and culture) Screamliner (talk) 11:02, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * vzaak is well-known for his antisocial behaviour: http://weilerpsiblog.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/the-wikipedia-battle-for-rupert-sheldrakes-biography/
 * Your version of the Novelty Theory section is full of tautologies and unsourced misconceptions:
 * "Novelty, in this context, can be thought of as newness, or increased activity and options." The number of options (degrees of freedom) is entropy, which McKenna defines as the opposite of novelty.
 * "The peaks in the graph represent the abstraction of 'stasis' or habitual stability, while the valleys represent novelty or change." A change can result in a decrease of novelty. Therefore, novelty is not change.
 * So, you are not qualified to edit this article, Screamliner. 192.69.217.195 (talk) 12:22, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If you continue your personal attacks against editors IP, you will be blocked. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  12:26, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, all the unsourced crazy stuff is back again, "gravitoelectrical treeing", "flux tubes", the whole mess. People, this is just vandalism. The Rupert Sheldrake article had a similar infestation of nonsense. Compare Neither case is sourced or has much relation to the article. Obviously.
 * "Sheldrake views the universe as a swarm of matter waves (elementary particles, atoms and molecules), spiralling down the gradient of their synergetic (energetically favourable) constructive interference"
 * "McKenna viewed the universe as a swarm of matter waves, spiralling down the gradient of their synergetic (energetically favourable) constructive interference"

TheRedPenOfDoom and Screamliner, you were editing the article after 192.69.217.195 restored the crazy stuff, so now your changes have to be separated from the crazy. vzaak 16:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * go ahead and revert to pre crazy - removal of bad external links and erowid as a source is simple. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  16:50, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I ended up just restoring Screamliner's section on novelty theory. I don't have an opinion on this new material; my only intent was to remove the obvious nonsense of "gravitoelectrical treeing" etc. vzaak 17:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi TheRedPenOfDoom I am quite new to editing Wikipedia and just wondering why you feel Erowid is not a valid source? Especially when most of the links are to archived interviews or magazine articles. Thanks Screamliner (talk) 17:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
 * a reliable source has a reputation for fact checking an editorial oversight. Erowid does not. While the originals of the content they collected may qualify as reliable sources, we cannot link to the erowid site because 1) any copies posted there violation WP:ELNEVER and 2) there is no verifiable "chain of custody" to validate that what they have posted is actually what the original states.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:47, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I am going to re-add the section on 'the Watkins objection' as this was left out in vzaak most recent restoring edit and I think it's relevant Screamliner (talk) 17:52, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Oops, I restored a version that was older than I had intended. Sorry. vzaak 18:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Terence McKenna is properly described as an ethnobotanist
I see that in the most recent edit Plantdrew removed the characterization of McKenna as an ethnobotanist, presumably from ignorance as well as prejudice. McKenna, along with his then-wife Kathleen Harrison, founded Botanical Dimensions in 1985, whose stated aim was “to collect, protect, propagate and understand plants of ethno-medical significance and their lore.”  See more on the BD website at http://botanicaldimensions.org/

Terence McKenna presented a 2-day seminar in San Francisco (which I attended) entitled "Ethnobotany and Shamanism" and which is preserved on 4 DVDs published by Sound Photosynthesis -- see their catalog of McKenna talks at http://www.soundphotosynthesis.com/Terence_Mckenna.html See also several YouTube clips of McKenna speaking on this subject.

As with the refusal by WP editors to characterize McKenna as a philosopher (see my comment above), this refusal is based on the false position that only someone who has published articles in one or more academic journals in some field should be acknowledged as a practitioner of research in that field. This is mere prejudice by WP editors which commonly afflicts WP articles, and is one reason why WP cannot be regarded as a reliable source of information. Its pretence to be an 'encyclopedia' is ludicrous. Only the foolish and ignorant ever cite WP as an authorative source. Peter Meyer (TWZ author) (talk) 08:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it is entirely reasonable that someone must have "published articles in one or more academic journals in some field [to be] acknowledged as a practitioner of research in that field", although there may be occasionally be people active in a field with no publications in academic journals. For example, I'm not finding any academic papers authored by Kathleen Harrison, but I think it is fair to describe her as an ethnobotanist based on the projects Botanical Dimensions works on. I saw  Dennis McKenna was missing from Category:Ethnobotanists and added him; it was pretty ridiculous that Terence was listed as an ethnobotanist and Dennis was not.


 * And it's pretty ridiculous, considering how closely all three worked together in earlier years, to list Kathleen and Dennis as ethonobotanists but to refuse to grant this attribution to Terence. Please see my further remarks on Botanical Dimensions below.  Peter Meyer (TWZ author) (talk) 06:09, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Clearly Terence was interested in ethnobotany, and his ex-wife and brother are fairly described as ethnobotanists, but I don't think Terence was an ethnobotanist. Admittedly, I don't know what exactly his role with Botanical Dimensions was, but it's pretty clear that BD is primarily Kathleen's thing, not Terence's, as his involvement with BD ended with his divorce. A couple lectures purportedly about ethnobotany doesn't make Terence an ethnobotanist. His involvement with BD might qualify him as an ethnobotanist, but the article doesn't say what he did for BD.Plantdrew (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I forgot to thank Plantdrew for cleaning up this Talk page after Brian Aker's early editing attempts (thanks Plantdrew). I note however that he removed the attribution of 'ethnobotanist' simply because he "doesn't think that" Terence merits this, and he is not prepared to restore it because he doesn't "know what exactly his role with Botanical Dimensions".  As I pointed out, Terence and Kat were co-founders (in 1975) of Botanical Dimensions.  I knew Terence personally from 1986 through 1994, and I can tell you that Terence was as much involved with BD as Kat was.  I also visited their plant repository on the Big Island of Hawaii, where they were cultivating plants of ethnobotanical significance.  (Here is a photo of their house there: http://www.fractal-timewave.com/pics/mckenna_house_hawaii.jpg A small part of the plant repository is visible at the left of the picture.)   Plantdrew says that BD "is primarily Kat's thing, not Terence's, as his involvement with BD ended with his divorce."  That's not true, since Terence gave at least one public talk after his divorce which was intended to raise money for BD, and even if his involvement ended with his divorce (in the early 1990s) that would still mean that for about 20 years he was involved.  Plantdrew says that: "A couple [of] lectures purportedly about ethnobotany doesn't make Terence an ethnobotanist."  Note the use of the prejudicial 'purportedly'.  Has Plantdrew viewed the 4 DVDs of Terence's seminar in San Fransisco entitled "Ethnobotany and Shamanism" (available from Sound Photosynthesis at http://www.soundphotosynthesis.com/Terence_Mckenna.html)?  Peter Meyer (TWZ author) (talk) 06:09, 1 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Peter Meyer (TWZ author) do you know the copyright status of this photo would it be suitable for upload to Wikipedia and use in the article? Thanks Screamliner (talk) 21:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I cannot find a source that would satisfy WP editors, i don't think, but McKenna graduated from Berkeley in 1975 with a degree in "ecology, resource conservation and Shamanism". Given that the majority of his career was based around using and learning about ethno-important plants and bringing them to the west for use and preservations quite clearly places him in the box of at least ethnobotanist. His knowledge of botany was extensive, to say the least. For the record, Dennis McKenna is an Ethnopharmacologist, not an Ethnobotanist. I don't have a source for that except the man himself. I am a personal friend. 122.60.120.107 (talk) 04:25, 2 June 2013 (UTC)Amadeus

With regards to McKenna being correctly classified as a ethnobotanist, I completely agree and have edited accordingly. I feel that I have added enough sourced information into the article itself to justify this change (see the botanical dimensions section specifically.) With regards to McKenna being correctly classified as a philosopher again I completely agree. To state that you need to have "published articles in one or more academic journals in some field [to be] acknowledged as a practitioner of research in that field" in regards to philosophy is simply reducing the term philosopher to only apply to a western modern academic only interpretation of the word. I feel this is a false premise and completely unjustified and I have edited the article accordingly. --Screamliner (talk) 19:06, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

This is a review of Food of the Gods by Richard Evans Schultes which originally appeared in American Scientist and who according to Wikipedia may be considered the father of modern ethnobotany. Here are a couple of highlights: "A masterpiece of research and writing, this volume should be read by every specialist working in the multifarious fields involved with the use of psychoactive drugs....Terence McKenna's 313 pages are overflowing with well-ordered and skillfully written cultural, sociological, historical, legal and moral discussions on the political future of drug uses....This volume will long be consulted by researchers and others who may not be convinced by McKenna's scholarly venture into a highly controversial realm of thinking. It is, without question, destined to play a major role in our future considerations of the role of the ancient use of psychoactive drugs, the historical shaping of our modern concerns about drugs and perhaps about man's desire for escape from reality with drugs."

I'm going to post this in the scientific community section of this talk page as well as it is relevant for both Screamliner (talk) 10:49, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


 * In addition to the American Scientist book review mentioned above (full ref below) multiple sources refer to McKenna as an ethnobiologist. - - MrBill3 (talk) 03:38, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Novelty theory is part of the 2012 phenomenon
There is already a source in the article stating this explicitly, a search confirms it, and McKenna is in the 2012 phenomenon article. 2012 is an important aspect of the idea which is easily communicated to readers. vzaak 18:48, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

My edit was not disputing that fact, I am aware that it is part of the 2012 phenomenon and that it is in the 2012 article and I agree that the 2012 date ended up being an important aspect of the idea. But that does not mean he formulated a "2012 eschatology". He formulated a hypothesis about the nature of time based on patterns in the I Ching. The graph could have been placed anywhere on the historical timeline, the end date is arbitrary. It is due to McKennas 'best fit' placement that it reached the 0 point in 2012 and he seemingly wanted to align with the mayan calendar and the 2012 phenomena as well. But the theory came first, the 2012 date is secondary to the actual ideas underpinning Novelty theory. And to suggest otherwise is misleading. I have made an edit which hopefully reaches a happy medium. Screamliner (talk) 20:15, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The entire section Novelty Theory and Timewave Zero needs extensive editing per (WP:DUE). The current sources are primary or unreliable see: WP:RS. The explanation of the ideas are far to extensive, interested readers can consult McKenna's works. Where it has been found notable and discussed in reliable sources it should be in the article as summarized, analyzed, evaluated and discussed by reliable sources. An article in The Independent says, "The game is Timewave Zero; the rules, a computer model based on fractal dynamics, plotting a graph of every peak and trough in our planet's 4,500 million-year history." There is certainly some discussion and evaluation in other sources like the Jenkins 2009 book but WP should strive for concision and give details only as due.

- - MrBill3 (talk) 04:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Scientific community
Since Alexandra Bruce, the author of the book Vzaak cited, offers absolutely no support for her flat statement "It is considered to be pseudoscience by the scientific community", we can only conclude that this is her opinion. As such, my edit "some members of the scientific community" was IMO appropriate. One might also add "according to film producer Alexandra Bruce" to the statement. She offers no poll, no study, no source claiming to represent "the scientific community". She simply says this is so. I am willing to accept that some members of that community believe this, if evidence is presented. She, being a film producer who graduated from Brown University with a BA in Semiotics, is NOT a representative of that community and has no business speaking for it. The other "source" you supplied was from the blog of an archaeologist who describes himself as "an opponent to pseudoscience and new-age" and McKenna as a "Prophet of nonsense", who makes NO statements about the opinion of the scientific community, just his own.Rosencomet (talk) 14:54, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * A worldwide poll of the scientific community on whether McKenna's "novelty theory" is pseudoscience has not been conducted, nor will it be. That's not how science works. The onus is on you to show that the scientific community has taken "novelty theory" seriously. Please see WP:FRINGE. Also, blogs are suitable for counterbalance per WP:PARITY. vzaak 15:47, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I think it better to add a new paragraph to the end of the 'novelty theory' section stating the criticism of the theory. In a similar vain to what has been done in the 'stoned ape' section. Surely the opening description is not a place for others opinions and criticism. Also stating such an absolute as the scientific community regards this as pseudoscience is surely a false statement. Is novelty theory even purporting to be science? and if so then "some members of the scientific community" is a much more truthful and appropriate statement. I am going to make an edit along these lines, obviously feel free to discuss and/or adjust accordingly. Screamliner (talk) 18:35, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * No, criticism should be prominently included. Please read WP:PSCI WP:FRINGE WP:GEVAL. vzaak 19:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I am very concerned about this kind of "support". So far, all you've presented to back up the notion that "It is considered to be pseudoscience by the scientific community" is a statement in a book by a film producer without even an attempt to back it up, a disparaging article in the BLOG of an archeologist (a different field from the subject's) who says nothing about the scientific community, and an article apparently by a high school student: "The Scientia Review is an e-journal that publishes secondary school writings in STEM disciplines—science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. It provides an accessible forum for the best examples of scientific and technical prose written by high school students, including essays, review articles, research papers, and science books for children." This is the level of sources being used to place repeated "criticism" on the ideas of the subject of this article, and Vzaak says he doesn't have to support the statement that this author's ideas are pseudoscience, others have to show that it is NOT considered pseudoscience. I find that absurd. Rosencomet (talk) 00:40, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have deleted the paragraph using only a high school student's essay as a citation. You seem to be really stretching to find any possible citation to disparage this author's work, and I wonder why that is. I also wonder whether other sources used on this page are as tenuous.Rosencomet (talk) 00:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * It appears that the source for the criticism paragraph in the Stoned Ape Theory section of this article, "A Critique of Terence McKenna's 'Stoned Ape Theory'" by Sam Woolfe, is the blog of a guy who works for a "libertarian-leaning magazine" in London called the Backbencher; not as a reporter, but as a "Marketing Administrative Assistant." Is this really an encyclopedic source? Is he a member of the scientific community, or an authority on anthropology? Is his blog peer reviewed? Rosencomet (talk) 02:12, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it's fantastic that the top paper from Google Scholar is from the The Scientia Review. It's the right level for a critique of McKenna's "novelty theory", and it likely has more oversight than McKenna's self-published work. The scientific community never took the 2012 eschatology hogwash seriously, of course, which is an example of why WP:PARITY exists. (It doesn't appear as though you've read WP:PARITY, or the others mentioned, WP:FRINGE WP:PSCI WP:GEVAL.) Also please see WP:ITA regarding your additions of in-text attribution. Please read all the aforementioned policies carefully. vzaak 03:34, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I, too was looking for sources on Google Scholar. The first result I found was Mark Heley giving serious consideration to McKenna's theories in his books The Everything Guide to 2012 (2009) and 101 Things You Should Know about 2012 (2010). Mark Heley is the producer and director of the 2012 documentary Frequency Shift. He writes, "As a hypothesis, timewave zero has some very compelling qualities. It challenges the idea of linear time in a more radical way than has ever been done before... Where it appears more flawed and limited is when it is taken literally as a predictive model. Novelty is open to interpretation." The next book in the results is The 2012 Story: The Myths, Fallacies, and Truth Behind the Most Intriguing Date in History by John Major Jenkins, who apparently holds McKenna in high regard. Jenkins is a "pioneer of the 2012 movement", according to the short blurb at Google Books. The third result is a self-published book by Joseph Wouk, which cannot be used here. The fourth result is a sample of a book by Daniel Briggs: The Purification Papers, Mandala Books, ISBN 978-0-578-00762-5. Briggs writes like he's neck-deep in the 2012 movement—he takes McKenna's theories as gospel.
 * There are other writers who quote McKenna but none from the scientific community. I don't see anything remotely supporting the conclusion made by Alexandra Bruce that the scientific community thinks this or that thing about the theories of McKenna. The silence from the scientific community is certainly damning, so it is very easy to conclude they think McKenna is a crank. However, I don't think we should quote Bruce, not even with attribution. Yes, her conclusion is in her book, yes it is a reliable source by Wikipedia's easy standards, but we as human editors can come to an agreement to ignore portions of our sources. It's done all the time at various Wikipedia articles: editors can determine that source A is good for everything but the incorrect statement about X. I think Bruce falls into this category. Binksternet (talk) 02:01, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The most scholarly people who comments on McKenna include mathematician Matthew Watkins who wrote "Autopsy for a Mathematical Hallucination?" Watkins is sympathetic to the ramifications of McKenna's theory but he concludes that it was based on faulty assumptions, that McKenna purposely changed the formula to get to his target date, rather than let the natural formula speak its own conclusion. The other very scholarly person is John Sheliak. As Gregg Braden says, Watkins "offers an honest assessment and the recommendations that lay the foundation for the later revisions by physicist John Sheliak." Sheliak is a nuclear physicist, a mathematician, and an applied scientist. Sheliak said that McKenna's theory is interesting but that the timewave corresponds to observed history in a general sense, difficult to analyze, difficult to link to specific events. Neither of these guys says McKenna's theory is pseudoscience, even though they show no mercy as they point to its severe faults. So Bruce was making up the bit about what the scientific community thinks. Binksternet (talk) 03:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * It's not the least bit surprising that there's a mathematician in the world who is into numerology and 2012 eschatology ("it wouldn't surprise me if something quite remarkable does occur on December 21, 2012"). Yet despite his explicit sympathies, Watkins says, I must conclude that the "timewave" cannot be taken to be what McKenna claims it is.


 * Likewise it's not surprising to find a physicist in the world who is into the 2012 nuttery. A brief listen to this should tell you what's going on with John Sheliak.


 * Folks, this is not a borderline call. Numerology is pseudoscience. The various scientifically-sounding ideas surrounding the 2012 phenomenon, of which novelty theory is one, are pseudoscience. The sources are just stating the obvious.


 * Characterizing something as pseudoscience does not require a poll among all the scientists of the world. If that were the criteria for calling something pseudoscience then nothing could be called pseudoscience and the word would cease to have meaning.


 * Wikipedia has historically had problems with editors aiming to promote pseudoscience or lessen its criticism, which eventually lead to the arbitration case on pseudoscience. Please look the case over and be advised that this article falls under discretionary sanctions. Please read WP:FRINGE. Thank you. vzaak 05:39, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not moved by your argument, such as it is. I have no wish to promote pseudoscience, but I fail to see this topic sufficiently classified as such. Problem #1: You referenced a pop culture writer who decided she can speak for all of science. Problem #2: I pointed out two scholars who commented respectfully but very critically on McKenna, and you dismissed them as cranks. What do you know that they don't? Problem #3: You brand novelty theory as numerology but the article as it now appears does not support such a simplistic label. Novelty theory may well be more than numerology; according to Watkins and Sheliak, the idea holds more promise once McKenna's mistakes are excised. The biggest problem I see here is that one Wikipedia editor feels he is the arbiter of what is pseudoscience, despite evidence to the contrary (scholars actually working the hypothesis, finding and even fixing faults). Binksternet (talk) 08:49, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * he promoted Machine elf, that humans evolved because they took psychedelic mushrooms and that patterns from the I Ching can be graphed to show that the universe ends in 2012, just like "the Mayan calendar says". How is that NOT clearly pseudoscience? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  13:43, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * A mixture of numerology and 2012-apocalypse nonsense revealed while tripping on mushrooms? This is like an exaggerated caricature of pseudoscience. For goodness' sake, it's 2014. Reliable sources tell us the obvious. This stuff is pseudoscience. Please see WP:PARITY.


 * Re #3, I did not say novelty theory is exclusively numerology, of course.


 * Fringe views must be placed in context with mainstream views (WP:PSCI). This is a policy. I did not call Sheliak (or anyone) is a "crank", but he evidently holds fringe views. Now that you mention it, Sheliak's site does have all the indicators of crankishness: flashing background, distracting animations, 90s-era feel, promotion of Dean Radin, etc. On the youtube audio linked previously, he goes into all sorts of 2012 end-of-the-world nuttery, 9/11 conspiracies, and who knows what else. With regard to the McKenna article, Sheliak does not represent the mainstream view; he represents the fringe view. He's explicitly promoting McKenna on his website. Fringe views must be placed in context with mainstream views (WP:PSCI). This is a policy.


 * For any given pseudoscience idea, one can probably find a scientist in the world supporting it. According to your argument, this means that the thing is not pseudoscience, and therefore almost nothing can be called pseudoscience.


 * Everyone please read WP:FRINGE; I am not convinced this has happened. vzaak 18:34, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


 * First of all, yes, I have read WP:FRINGE. However, YOUR OPINION as to whether this or anything else is pseudoscience is irrelevant, as is your concern that "therefore almost nothing can be called pseudoscience". Nowhere can I find the notion that it is the purpose of Wikipedia to sort science from pseudoscience, or for editors to take on that crusade. I have not even argued with the use of that term! I DO have a problem with the statement "It is considered to be pseudoscience by the scientific community", and what you've used to support that statement. And obviously I am not the only editor who thinks so. I merely suggested it be changed to "Some members of the scientific community", and you have responded with a fervor that smacks, IMO, of ownership. I suggested specifying where the characterization came from, and was reverted again. I pointed out that you were using a non-scientific community member's statement as a source, and a blog from someone in a different field who says NOTHING about the scientific community, and that in regard to the Stoned Ape Theory you included a critique based on a high school student's essay, and you still have a "revert everything, those who disagree with me have no merit" attitude. Binksternet, frankly a better researcher and editor than I, has introduced articles by members of the scientific community that obviously indicate that "some members" is a better statement, but you continue to fight for your exact absolutist language and refuse to allow modification by other editors. And AGAIN you use the phrase "be advised that this article falls under discretionary sanctions" with another editor, when it does NOT, since the issue is your use of a statement and particular inappropriate sources. IMO, the purpose of an encyclopedia article is to report on a subject, not judge his work. It should not be characterized by a distain for the field he works or writes in, or for anyone who might write anything favorable about him. I urge you to reconsider your stance. Rosencomet (talk) 20:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)


 * "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such. An explanation of how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories should be prominently included...See Wikipedia's established pseudoscience guidelines to help with deciding whether a topic is appropriately classified as pseudoscience." WP:PSCI is part of WP:NPOV, which is indeed a non-negotiable policy. Also see WP:PARITY regarding sources that may be used to critique fringe subjects. See WP:ITA regarding the removal of in-text attribution. I've stated all these policies before, both here and in edit comments, but you haven't responded to these points. vzaak 02:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

This is a review of Food of the Gods by Richard Evans Schultes which originally appeared in American Scientist and who according to Wikipedia may be considered the father of modern ethnobotany. Here are a couple of highlights: "A masterpiece of research and writing, this volume should be read by every specialist working in the multifarious fields involved with the use of psychoactive drugs....Terence McKenna's 313 pages are overflowing with well-ordered and skillfully written cultural, sociological, historical, legal and moral discussions on the political future of drug uses....This volume will long be consulted by researchers and others who may not be convinced by McKenna's scholarly venture into a highly controversial realm of thinking. It is, without question, destined to play a major role in our future considerations of the role of the ancient use of psychoactive drugs, the historical shaping of our modern concerns about drugs and perhaps about man's desire for escape from reality with drugs."

I have also posted this in the Terence McKenna is properly described as an ethnobotanist section of this talk page as well as it is relevant for both Screamliner (talk) 10:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Another link from Scientific American relevant for this discussion Screamliner (talk) 11:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

NPOV
The article fails WP:NPOV in particular WP:PSCI and WP:VALID in presenting KcKenna's wacko positions and claims without putting them in the appropriate context as they are considered by mainstream academia - completely absurd nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  12:44, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * To agree in slightly different expression. The article contains far too much of McKenna's thought and work from primary sources. An encyclopedia article should present the thought and work of an individual only as and if discussed in reliable secondary sources. If the ideas, claims and positions of the individual are not discussed in secondary sources they should be mentioned and very briefly summarized, the reader interested in them can read the individuals works, listen to their lectures etc. Detailed explanations of McKenna's ideas synthesized and extracted from primary sources are not appropriate for an encyclopedic article. Explanations/interpretations of Mekenna's work should come from secondary sources and include (briefly) analysis and commentary. Material is only appropriate content for an encyclopedia if it is notable enough to be discussed in secondary reliable sources. Self published original research; unverified possible copyright violating primary sources; and unreliable sources are not appropriate sources for WP. Facts arrived at by editors based on consulting/analyzing primary sources are not appropriate content for WP, these facts must be sourced by secondary reliable sources. If secondary reliable sources have not noted these facts they are not encyclopedic content. - - MrBill3 (talk) 16:17, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Considerable work has been done on the article and I think the tags can be moved from the top of the article to the "Thought" section. - - MrBill3 (talk) 05:42, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * agreement from me Screamliner (talk) 13:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Even more work has now been done, I think the tags can be moved from the top of the article to the "Novelty Theory and Timewave Zero" section. Thoughts anyone? Screamliner (talk) 21:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I think the NPOV tag can be removed from the article completely. If an editor seeks to emphasize the mainstream scientific consensus or add some criticism that would probably be appropriate but the material in the article now is rather well supported by references. I think the statement about the Stoned Ape Theory, "While receiving some praise, the theory has been widely disputed." may not be quite right per WP:FRINGE etc. Again if someone wants to strengthen the presentation of the mainstream scientific position that would help. I think the article fairly and from quality sources presents McKenna's thoughts and influence that is the subject. I still intend to remove the Watkins Objection section and put it below. I think the primary tag can be removed, although primary sources remain, most of them are supported by other refs or are appropriate. The additional citations tag is toast the article now has an abundance of quality sources. I am BOLDLY removing all three tags. I think any needed improvements can be made through conversation here and incremental edits. - - MrBill3 (talk) 07:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
 * i do not have any objection to the general tags being removed and specific objections being noted instead. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  13:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)