Talk:Teresa Morgan

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extra inf. source Oxford University Calendar 2004-2005

A user contested deletion on the grounds that "she is Nancy Bissell Turpin Fellow, Senior Dean of Oriel, Oxford, two academic books which is more notable than 'your average professor". Please in future refer to WP:ACADEMIC in such cases. You do not explain how she meets any of the conditions given there. Merely repeating what it says in the article is not enough. As for the points you make:

1. Yes, she is a fellow of an Oxford college. I do not see the relevance of this. Some fellows of Oxford colleges are notable in Wikipedia terms, others not.

2. Senior Dean of Oriel: this just means she is the fellow responsible for dealing with student disciplinary matters. It is not like being Dean of a Law School, for example. It has nothing to do with academic status.

3. 2 books: potentially relevant, but you have done nothing to demonstrate she "has made significant impact in [her] scholarly discipline, broadly construed, as demonstrated by independent reliable sources."Uthor (talk) 10:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1."The person holds or has held a named/personal chair appointment or "Distinguished Professor" appointment at a major institution of higher education and research."
 * 2. Oriel has four deans, two junior, one dean (who is just "responsible for dealing with student disciplinary") and Senior Dean (who may have 'multiple major programs reporting to the position and supervision of assigned managers' and other such job-description spiel as part of their remit).
 * 3.I'm sure there are more competent ways of doing 'how frequently cited her works are' but I googled her 'Literate Education' book and see it is on the course work/book list for Warwick University, http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/arts/classics/modules/hellenistic/bibliography/ University of Saskatchewan http://homepage.usask.ca/~jrp638/CourseNotes/education.html and Kings College London http://www.kcl.ac.uk/schools/humanities/depts/classics/current/ug/materials/fy16biblio-1.html amongst others, 124 google scholar results for the same book are here --Alf melmac 11:42, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your reply. However, I'm not convinced yet.


 * Regarding your first point, she is a university lecturer and college tutor. (This college, like others, sometimes names tutorships after donors or distinguished old members, in order to encourage donations. So in this case, the position of "fellow and tutor in ancient history" is named after Nancy Turpin.) She does not hold a chair. Oxford University has professors and readers (next rank down from professor). She has not been appointed to a professorship or readership.


 * Regarding the second point, the college website offers the following description of the decanal system:
 * The Senior Dean, Dr Teresa Morgan, manages all decanal business. The Deans, Ms Kathryn Bevis (Dean) and Ms Madhavi Nevader (Dean of Welfare), and the Junior Deans, Ms Melissa Cortina and Ms Elizabeth Russell, are collectively responsible for welfare, upholding discipline, and ensuring a hospitable living and working environment for Junior Members." ( http://www.oriel.ox.ac.uk/images/File/Current%20Members/MEMORANDUM%202008-2009.pdf ) It's one of those administrative responsibilities that fellows of Oxford colleges often have to take on. It doesn't have anything to do with academic notability.


 * As for the third point, you have not shown that she is the "author of highly cited academic work: either of several extremely highly cited scholarly publications or of a substantial number of scholarly publications with significant citation rates". You have just shown that *one* publication of hers has been frequently cited. That doesn't satisfy the criterion. There must be *several* such. (Also, I don't think the use of her book as an undergraduate textbook is relevant in terms of the Wikipedia criteria.)


 * So for the moment, I don't think she's notable enough. Perhaps in a few years' time she'll satisfy the notability criteria, but I don't think she has yet on the evidence so far presented. No chair, and only one frequently cited publication.Uthor (talk) 13:19, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You and I parse the point I quoted differently then. She holds a named appointment.
 * All decanal business may include, as I forwarded, a wider view 'than just discipline of the students' although I agree it may not be a point of academic notability, rather a mark of prestige given by the particular institution.
 * I only bothered to look at the the first book - being easily found to be on the reading list of universities I translate as both being the same (or better) than 'highly cited works' and university libraries holding multiple copies of the work because of it, widely disseminating her work. The link I provided to scholar shows some form of citation ratio, as I said, "I'm sure there are more competent ways of doing 'how frequently cited her works are'"
 * Overall I think your interpretation of the bar to be too high and suggest that if you feel that she is truly 'not for inclusion' then take it to AfD.--Alf melmac 13:49, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a chair appointment. Surely you don't think that having any appointment with a name is what the author of these criteria intended?
 * Not a mark of prestige. All fellows have to take on some administrative duties in rotation.
 * OK, but you've only shown one publication to be frequently cited. I stand by my point about textbooks. Use as a textbook is neither necessary nor sufficient to make a scholarly book important, and in any case doesn't feature among the Wikipedia criteria.
 * Done.Uthor (talk) 14:18, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090824023643/http://www.oriel.ox.ac.uk/images/File/Current%20Members/MEMORANDUM%202008-2009.pdf to http://www.oriel.ox.ac.uk/images/File/Current%20Members/MEMORANDUM%202008-2009.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090114201326/http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/staff/morgan.php to http://www.jesus.ox.ac.uk/staff/morgan.php

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