Talk:Teresa Sampsonia

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Teresa
Teresia Sampsonia → Teresa Sampsonia -- Made a small mistake. I initially called the article "Teresa" but later changed it "Teresia". Having just raised this article to GA, I came to the conclusion that the title should be changed back to "Teresa Sampsonia", because thats what mmost RS sources call her. - LouisAragon (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Moved as requested. Dekimasu よ! 19:16, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Feedback from Ceranthor

 * Lead
 * "born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668)" - missing a parenthese here?


 * "After the death of her husband, and due to impediments from grandees at the court and the authorities during the reign of Abbas' successor and grandson Safi (r. 1629–1642), she decided to leave Iran." - "she decided to leave Iran"... this is confusing since you haven't established that she was there often, only explaining that she traveled often with her husband. Can you add something about staying in Iran once her husband passed away?
 * "She lived in a convent in Rome for the rest of her life, which she devoted to charity and religion." - this reads as though you're saying she devoted the convent to charity; reword


 * Don't think linking Christianity is necessary


 * "and reburied in the grave where she would also be buried." - awkward phrasing
 * "Teresa was received by many of the royal houses of Europe" - I thought she lived in Rome?


 * "An emancipated figure of the seventeenth century, due to her exploits, she" - Definitely would mention Teresa's name again in this sentence. Also unsure about the "emancipated figure" description... I read it as "emaciated" at first and I think it needs to be tweaked or reworded
 * "due to her exploits, she has been described" - remove the comma after "exploits" - the rest of this sentence reads quite nicely


 * Early life and marriage
 * "She was named Sampsonia by birth." - Just "Sampsonia" or did she have another first name?
 * Yeah, it was just "Sampsonia". - LouisAragon (talk) 01:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "accomplished horsewoman" - isn't the usual term equestrian?
 * I think both are accepted terms? I chose horsewoman as it specifies gender. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "was an English adventurer who was sent to the Safavids after a Persian embassy was sent to Europe to forge an alliance against the neighbouring Ottoman Empire, rivals of the Safavids.[8] " - badly needs to be reworded; "was...was...was" needs to be changed
 * "Around the time of their February 1608 marriage" - I'd replace "around" with another similar phrase... "At about" perhaps?


 * Travels
 * Should start with a bit of background on Shirley if possible?
 * "She accompanied Shirley on his diplomatic missions to England" - Should start with "Teresa" rather than "She"


 * "while her husband went on to visit" - hate the phrase "went on" - just say "visited" :)


 * "In Madrid, Teresa came to know the Carmelite nuns, particularly Mother Beatrix de Jesus (the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[19][20]" - this parenthetical is overly long; maybe make it a separate sentence?
 * "Their only child, a son named Henry, probably the first child born in England of Iranian descent" - this seems like the sort of thing that should have its own footnote


 * " and Queen Anne.[21][13] " - switch ref order


 * "On their way back to Safavid Iran in 1613, they decided to turn young Henry over either to the care of the queen,[22] or Robert's own family in Sussex.[13]" - why? you should definitely try to consult refs for why
 * I think I've read about every single RS out there regarding this woman, the Shirleys and the Safavids -- unfortunately none of them mentions the reason. I will keep looking while I get to the rest of the points. - LouisAragon (talk) 01:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)


 * "but retained a symbolic item familiar to Perso-Georgian painting (a pistol in one portrait, said to refer to her saving Shirley from bandits or to indicate her noble family).[1][9]" - is the pistol the item? or did it change? this sentence is confusing
 * "they visited Rome briefly between 22 July and 29 August 1622, where Anthony van Dyck (then 23 years old) painted their portraits.[23][24] They then went to Poland, and visited England in 1623 for the last time. They sailed for the Safavid Empire in 1627 with Dodmore Cotton, an envoy from the king of England to Persia and other courts.[25]" - choppy prose; "they x", "they Y", "they z"

Will get to the last section after these are addressed. Also, the Floor 2008 reference is not in the Sources section as far as I can tell.  ceran  thor 22:58, 24 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Will try to post some more comments today.  ceran  thor 12:54, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry, feeling sick the past few days, but will keep working on more comments ASAP.  ceran  thor 23:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your message. No worries. I mentioned my intention in my edit-summary, but I should've adressed it more clearly. My bad. I'm making more improvements/fixes in my sandbox as we speak. I'll ping you when I'm done in my sandbox, is that alright with you? Get well soon! - LouisAragon (talk) 23:34, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds perfect - already feeling better today.  ceran  thor 17:49, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Should be back in full swing this week - let me know when you're ready for more comments.  ceran  thor 17:18, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Took some time, but I'm ready again. Tweaked many parts and added additional information. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:49, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Will post some comments shortly. Working on an FAC/GAN review at the moment, and some spotchecks for another requested review I have been postponing for quite some time!  ceran  thor 23:56, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Great, thanks for the heads up. - LouisAragon (talk) 22:24, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Shooting to post comments today. Still need to do some spotchecking and check in on GAN progress.  ceran  thor 17:52, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Shooting to post comments today. Still need to do some spotchecking and check in on GAN progress.  ceran  thor 17:52, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay!


 * Lead
 * "(born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668)" - awfully long for a parenthetical in the lead...
 * ✅ Let me know what you think. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Teresa Sampsonia[a] (born Sampsonia; full name after marrying Robert Shirley Lady Teresa Sampsonia Shirley, 1589–1668) was a Safavid noblewoman and the wife of Elizabethan English adventurer Robert Shirley, whom she accompanied on his travels and in embassies across Europe in the name of the Safavid emperor, Abbas the Great (r. 1588–1629)." - recommend ending the sentence at "noblewoman", then making the rest a second sentence.
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "and in embassies" - reads awkwardly... rephrase
 * ✅ Let me know what you think. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "After the death of her husband," - from what?
 * ✅ Let me know what you think. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "she mentions the efforts of herself and her husband," - efforts? vague
 * ✅ Let me know what you think. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "such as English crown prince Henry Frederick and Queen Anne (her child's godparents), and contemporary writers and artists such as Thomas Herbert and Anthony van Dyck. " - why the comma before "and contemporary..."?
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "According to Herbert, Robert Shirley "was the greatest Traveller of his time"; however, he admired the "undaunted Lady Teresa" even more.' - I think you should cite these direct quotes even if they're cited in the body text
 * "An emancipated figure of the seventeenth century," - emancipated reads awkwardly without more context here... IMO at least


 * Early life and marriage
 * "king (shah) Abbas the Great." - isn't king usually capitalized?
 * ✅ Ah...yeah... you're right! ("The King of England is one of many kings") - LouisAragon (talk) 15:35, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Teresa married Robert Shirley" - link Robert Shirley
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Shirley was an English adventurer who was sent to the Safavids after a Persian embassy was sent to Europe" - too many clauses here; "was ... after was"; rewrite


 * Travels
 * "and other royal houses in Europe for king Abbas" - same note as above about capitalization
 * "On their first trip together," - I'd maybe give it the formal name as the link indicates (Persian embassy trip)
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "There, Teresa remained in a convent in Kraków for some time," - "There" doesn't work well since it follows Rome AND Poland... maybe just cut it out, or replace with "In Poland, Teresa..."
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "while her husband visited Prague, where Emperor Rudolph II (r. 1576–1612) bestowed the title of Count Palatine on him.[19] " - "while" and "where" used in too close proximity IMO
 * "(the king's ambassador, with whom they had an audience with the pope) " - Pope capitalized usually?
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Teresa then rejoined him in Lisbon via Hamburg; thereafter they went to Madrid.[21] In Madrid, Teresa came to know the Carmelite nuns, particularly Mother Beatrix de Jesus (the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[22]" - "Madrid" and "In Madrid" repeated in too close proximity
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "(the niece of Saint Teresa, from whom she received a relic of Teresa which later reportedly sustained her in a crisis).[22]" - rather long parenthetical - can you cut down the verbiage?
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * " "probably the first child born in England of Iranian descent", " - awkward integration of the quote... according to whom? Rather than the footnote, I think mentioning it in the text would be preferable here
 * "On their way back to Safavid Iran in 1613, they decided to turn young Henry over either to the care of the queen,[28] or Robert's own family in Sussex.[29]" - no comma necessary before "or Robert's..."
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "During Shirley's diplomatic missions, their portraits were painted several times." - While "their"'s reference is implied here, it should be replaced with the two's proper names
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "but retained a symbolic item familiar to Perso-Georgian painting (a pistol in one portrait, said to refer to her saving Shirley from bandits or to indicate her noble family).[30]" - unclear... is this item different in various portraits? Or was it always a pistol?
 * Yeah the item is different in various portraits; in "that" particular portrait (the double portrait) its a pistol. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Departure from Safavid kingdom and later life
 * "They disgraced her to the king," - can others "disgrace" another person? Not sure this verb works here?
 * "Some of his corrupt officials plundered her wealth" - any idea how?
 * Unfortunately not. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * " She recovered, and decided to move to a Christian land.[40]" - I'd cut out the comma after "recovered"
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "She was questioned for an hour, before she was allowed to go home.[46]" - likewise, cut out the comma prior to "before"
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "The priests denied knowing where she was, and advised her to take refuge in the Church of Saint Augustine in New Julfa (the Armenian quarter in Isfahan);[47] they were brought to the favourite's house and threatened with torture before they were released.[48]" - add a "they" before "advised her"; I'd get rid of the semicolon and make that a second sentence
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Since he favoured the Carmelite Fathers, but didn't want to insult the mullah at the same time," - fix the contraction
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "The judge accused her of lying, and threatened to burn her alive if she did not convert to Islam. " - cut out the comma prior to "and threatened"
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "This text shows that Teresa subverted the patriarchal gender roles common to the Muslim and Christian cultures of her time.[64]" - but how?


 * On culture
 * "The "hybrid identities" and adventures of Teresa " - such a quote should probably have attribution within the text, too
 * "As his "exotic wife with an even more exotic life story", Teresa, together with her husband, who dressed in the "Persian garb" as "ambassador" of the "Great Sophy", sparked a great deal of curiosity and interest "in the popular psyche" of their contemporaries in the West.[66]" - same note as above
 * Circassia I think was already linked earlier in the body text
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Works inspired by the couple include two portrait" - missing an "s"
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 16:08, 12 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Works inspired by the couple include two portrait by the well known Anthony van Dyck, "a series of pamphlets" in numerous languages, as well as Jacobean stage plays including The Travels of the Three English Brothers.[71]" - before you haven't used the serial comma; be consistent with either using it or not throughout the article
 * ✅ - LouisAragon (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Prose still needs some fine-tuning before this is ready for FAC. But it's getting there! Nice work.  ceran  thor 18:09, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Awesome! - LouisAragon (talk) 14:47, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Going through and making small copyedits/tweaks here and there. Why do you refer to her as Teresa throughout, rather than using her last name? I ran into a similar issue at Omayra Sánchez, and it was changed to using her last name. Thoughts?  ceran  thor 16:18, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Because no one knows what her surname would be. One has to bear in mind that this is an individual from 17th-century Western Asia; people didn't use last names (as in the Western sense) at the time. So I have no idea what her last name would be. All sources simply refer to her as "Teresa", "Teresa Sampsonia", etc. Hope this answers your question. - LouisAragon (talk)
 * I see. Are you thinking of submitting this to FAC soon?  ceran  thor 15:50, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
 * (see above; sorry forgot to ping you).  ceran  thor 15:56, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Done! What do you think about the introduction? Good enough? :P - LouisAragon (talk) 17:43, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

A few questions
I'm currently translating this article into Danish. A user has asked a few questions on the talk page on da.wiki, stating that he's a bit confused about a few things in the article. As I've merely translated it, I think it's fine to ask them here, too ( Maybe you have the answers?). He asked the following questions (translated into English): Cheers, Biscuit-in-Chief (Talk – Contribs) 14:25, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) If she was called "Sampsonia" at birth and "Lady Shirley" after marriage, when was she called "Teresa Sampsonia"?
 * 2) It says in the note immediately after her name in bold that she had a first name when she was baptized (but not when she was baptized)
 * 3) It is also unclear whether the first name was Romanized when she was baptized (if so, why—it was in the Safavid kingdom), or whether it is different transcriptions or transliterations of a name in Persian or other language
 * 4) What is meant with Robert Shirley's embassies? Adventurers usually don't usually do embassies.