Talk:Tewodros II

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WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

Needs an infobox, but otherwise a B.

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 02:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

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This articles seems a little too.....eulogistic - by all accounts Theodore, though in many ways a reformer was also a bloodthirsty psychopath (Wald Gabr massacre, reduction of Gondar etc) - does nayone want to correct the imbalance in the article or shall I try?--Peteranthony 15:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me just tell you. what exactly do you British have against Theodore? This is the first patriot of Ethiopia you are talking about. Do you realize let alone talk about his atrocities, this article doesn't mention at all his fearless prowess or his skill as a warrior. From the time he was a lad of only 12 he proved himself a mighty individual, killing two elephants at once. From a young age he joined with his uncle Kinfu governor of Qwara, to defeat the hated Turkish/Egyptians oppressors. At the mere mention of his name, and appearance of him individually riding out, grinning at the face of death, eyes full of fire, he would bring terror to hundreds of Oromo horsemen and have them running for the hills. This extraordinary man was an ideal example of how when someone tries to live a good life, be truthful and fearless and not care for himself but rather for the well being of others, will accomplish great things. The article does not describe him being the best spear-man, the best shot, the best horseman, and the most untiring runner in his kingdom. All his life was warring with men who only loved to kill but this amazing man still held on to what was good and in the end lost his mind trying to maintain that surrounded by a selfish people. What a shame indeed, for Wikipedia doest bring to light the greatness of this "Theodore". His love for peace and industry, the many thousands unselfish work he did for his country no matter the creed or religion they followed, produced no positive results but made a perfect recipe for revenge. The British slighted him by their lack of care to help him either get weapons or send technicians to make weapons of war against the modernized forces of Islam who were at his border, killing pillaging and enslaving, even persecuting the Coptic Ethiopians who lived in Jerusalem,and their falsely reporting about him in their newspapers of how he proposed to Queen Victoria's hand in marriage or describing him as a Negro of the lowest class, when in fact he was Semitic, a descendent of Hebrews settled in Ethiopia. Even his predecessors' were not even close to his equal in his personal nobility, daring, genuineness, lack of interest for tribalism and fear of God. A really important note too, up to the age of 40 he was always noted by ever one that met him to be very generous, free of caprice, of an untiring energy, mentally and bodily, and merciful, pardoning as a rule his enemies of war, and even those who conspired against his life. Built roads with his own hands because his lazy people never really knew the benefit of change or hard work and needed to be shown example. He took care of thousands of orphans, widows and tried to build reforms that would have given him the title of a grand ruler had he lived in Europe, but he lived in a time when the hated bloodthirsty enemies were terrorizing the christian populace and every Ras was his own king, a time compared to the bible as, the time of judges. Even then, with his own mouth he said, I have come to make the Amara and Oromo be able to dine on the same table, to turn swords into plows, no more tribal wars but a modern standing army, for the villager to live peaceful and go back to his trade and live in peace. Even though he was very sincere and wanted only to regenerate his broken kingdom, and tried to bring the industrial revolution in his country, his backwards people never understood him, that and with the death of is his beloved wife and the murders of his best friends John Bell and Plowden, his character gave way to a monster and a terror of people. He said himself " I had thought to elevate these people with prosperity and peace but in spite of all the good i do i see more rebels... it is obvious they have a hard head and need to be chastised before being called to enjoy the blessings of Providence". So had engraved on his cannons, Tewodros the scourge of the perverse. Another thing... those 300 people he dashed from his cliff were not his own tribe like how you mentioned but prisoners from his enemies the Galla or Oromo as they prefer to be called. They had the nerve to criticize him and say that the british would destroy him and set them free when he was in a drunk state and causing him to go on a frenzy. His actions might seem harsh but you have no idea of how many atrocities the tribes of Ethiopia do to each other, he like most of his people in that area he is from were always more inclined to democracy but the rest of Ethiopia never wanted it and were ferocious in nature. Now that a type of democracy has been installed in the country, they all act as if they were always so peaceful and love to put blame on people like tewodros who's name will always stick out in Ethiopia.--Surafel Amara (talk) 19:36, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems more like you are the bloodthirsty psychopath. Speak for yourself. British enthusiast! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.197.230.14 (talk • contribs) on 21:21, 5 June 2006

lol - I am being serious though- fair enough, look's like I'll be doing it myself. --Peteranthony 17:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Someone should correct the article anyway, after all this man killed tens of thousands in cold (and hot) blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.232.1.229 (talk • contribs) on 11:51, 30 October 2006

Is there a source for the "Not Even Pending" statement regarding the letter? It sounds like a joke taken out of context.

Eye-witness accounts of Theodore's actions are unanimous in their descriptions of his madness and cruelty, describing the crucifixion and senseless slaughter of many thousands of people, including women and children:

G.A. Henty, "The March to Magdala", 1868; The reporting of Sir Henry Morton Stanley for the New York Herald, and "Coomasie and Magdala", 1874; William Simpson's reporting for the Illustrated London News, and "Diary of a Journey to Abyssinia, 1868"; Dr. Henry Blanc, "A Narrative of Captivity in Abyssinia", 1868; Mormuzd Rassam, "Narrative of the British Mission to Theodore of Ethiopia", 1869.

There is also an account of Theodore's atrocities related by Wald Gabr, Theodore's valet, given to Captain Charles Tristram Speedy, who was with the the British expedition against Theodore. I do not have this citation at the moment, but will look for it. So there seems to be overwhelming firsthand corroboration of Theodore's reputation as a psychopathic mass murderer. Kdoylekeenan 19:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[User: kdoylekeenan]


 * Calling him a sociopath is reducing a complex individual to a stereotype; as Sven Rubenson has pointed out (in his King of Kings: Tewodros of Ethiopia), even the primary sources disagree about what the man said and did. To have achieved victory over the other warlords of the Zemene Mesafint required a certain degree of cold-bloodedness, but victorious generals often possess this quality. By the point in his life when multiple reliable sources are available, he was under a great deal of strain from having to repeatedly crush determined & implacable rebellions practically throughout his realm. That his behavior towards the end of his life was increasingly erratic shouldn't either be a great surrpise, nor should it be used as how he "typically" behaved throughout his life. -- llywrch 01:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Those who consider his behavioue "erratic" should perhaps read of the cold-blooded crucifixion of some 2000 people at Gondar, the burning alive of several hundred clergy also at Gondar, the mass executions on the eve of the battle with the British (which consisted of throwing upwards of 200 mostly innocent people of his own tribe off the cliff either fully alive or after having hands and feet cut off). Not to mention the executions of every person in some 47 villages near the site of the final battle and the ensalvement of the locals across the whole of Abyssinia in order to bring his cannon back to Magala. Contemporaries regarded him as comparable to Attila or Caligula in cruelty, although they certainly also admit he was a great and talented man in other ways. It's certainly difficult to reconcile the two apparently different individuals that make up Theodore, but it isn't either historically accurate, nor morally acceptable to deny his quite remarkable history of atrocities, even in a region of the world, and at a time where torture, infanticide, and slavery where quite normal. Suggested reading, much easier going than Speedy or Gabr is "Flashman on the March" by MacDonald Fraser — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.61.2 (talk) 00:27, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Russian descendents
From the Wikipedia articles it's not clear which is the exact genealogical relationship among Tewodros, Peter Ustinov, Alexandre Benois, Eugene Lanceray, Zinaida Serebryakova, Anna Akhmatova and Leon Benois. Are there more famous Tewodrosids besides Ustinov? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.17.84 (talk • contribs) on 16:33, 20 September 2006
 * No. A footnote in the Peter Ustinov bio explains that, through an innocent mistake of Ustinov's childhood memories, it was thought that Ustinov descends from Tewodros II, but it now known to be a matter of mistaken identity. The claim that Ustinov is his descendant should be deleted, since it contradicts the documented ancestry given in Ustinov's article. FactStraight (talk) 13:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Popular culture
The "Popular culture" section lists a couple of works by Marsden and Moorehead that, based on the respective descriptions, sound more like academic historical works than fiction. If so, I think these are better suited for the "Further reading" section. However, I am not familiar with either book. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 23:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The Hammer of God by Alan Scholefield 1973 .Historical fiction, features Theodore II.

Quote at beginning

My people are bad; they love rebellion and hate peace; delight in idleness, and are averse to industry; but if God continues to me my life, I will readicate all that is bad, and introduce all that is salutary and good. - Theodore, King of Kings.

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * CDV-Theodoros-II-Emperor-of-Abyssinia-Carte-de.jpg

Unlocking the page
Can someone please unlock this page! This page have been closed for over a year now. 2A02:6680:1104:A889:3DB1:EAE:376A:2FC6 (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

B
Can you please unblock the page? This wikipedia article is very short on the life of Emperor Tewedros. For example it don't mentioned the Tewodros was the first Emperor of Ethiopia to resist against the slave trade. And he freed many slaves 2A02:6680:1104:A889:9D7A:3FA8:3BEF:6F6 (talk) 16:02, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Last words
Somehow this paragraph from his penultimate letter to Napier ought to be included in this article; without studying sources cited here, I see no easy way to incorporate it, but I believe it reflects his mindset on the eve of his inevitable death:

"If God had allowed me, I had planned to rule all; if God prevented me, [my intention was] to die. This was my plan. From when I was born until now, no man knew [how to] take hold of my hand. When people fled, I used to (lit. it was my habit to) rise and reassure them. Darkness prevented me. You people who passed yesterday [night] rejoicing, may God not make you like me. Let alone my Abyssinian enemies. I had thought of marching to Jerusalem and driving out the Turks. He who has subjected men will not in turn be subjected by [other] men."

Tewdros mother birth place
according to the The Ethiopian Chronicle Tewdros mother was from a noble family in Gondar. it is only Hormuzd Rassam that wrote that his mother was from Amhara sayint. 213.137.71.45 (talk) 20:22, 7 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look at some sources when i have more time. Dawit S Gondaria (talk) 14:26, 10 September 2022 (UTC)