Talk:Texas Tech University/Archive 1

Natalie Maines
Did she graduate from Texas Tech? If not, she's not technically an alumna, even if she attended the school. Maybe that section should be "Notable Alumni and Former Students" or something, or she should be removed. --Myles Long 20:41, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * She didn't even attend the University. She was just born in Lubbock Texas.


 * Fine, I removed her. --Myles Long 28 June 2005 15:06 (UTC)


 * She did attend briefly in Summer II and Fall 2005 semesters. Randallking 00:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Edited
I recently put some material on Texas Tech but my source was Texas Tech University web site. After reading about US copyright policies, I thought it may not be right to put that material which is not mine. And hence deleted all the contents of my addition. Will that be all right?


 * Depends what kind of information you put on the website. If you can give more details I'm sure the community will try to help you out in any way. --Woody Couder

STD infestation
i have herd that TTU has the highest rate of STD inflicted students. i have no grounds to prove this upon but maybe someone out there does...
 * I'll look for some info. I believe the stat is per capita for the city of Lubbock and not specifically TTU. I remember reading an article in the student newspaper regarding the STD rate at TTU and it being about avg. for most other universities. But I'll trty to find an article about the Lubbock STD/I rate. Woody Couder


 * False. Texas State University-San Marcos has a MUCH HIGHER STD rate than Texas Tech University.


 * There is no possible way that STD statistics could be known short of testing every student. Even if they tried to take a sample to extrapolate the percentage, the likelihood of a sampling error would be immense.  This rumor, wherever it came from, and the rumor about TSU are probably either A) rival-student manufactured or B) the product of some asinine local journalist trying to create a shocking story. Moreover, considering the turnover-rate of college students, by the time a study of this nature could be conducted properly half of those in the study would have graduated.  - Elred

Vandalism or Bold Edit?
All, please take a look at the edits on 27-Dec-2005 by 71.113.229.28. Is this vandalism or bold editing? I'm still new here so I'm not sure. I'm pretty sure the Mr. Papagiorgio reference is vandalism, so I'm reverting that immediately. Please take a look at the edits and revert if you feel appropriate. Lbbzman 03:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"Biggest" Claims
I just added some "Citation Needed" claims next to two of the claims in the page
 * 1) Vietnam Collection. Can someone please find a citation that shows that this is one of the biggest/best vietnam collections?
 * 2) Campus Size. Can someone show a rank or figure to back this claim up?

A wikipedia entry should contain an NPOV where comparitive quality statement are backed up by facts. I don't doubt these claims are true, but to stay in the entry they need to be backed up. Dothivalla 22:01, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have added a reference to the Vietnam archive being one of the biggest. That is a different claim than being the "best."  I'll keep looking for a reference that confirms it's one of the best. Lbbzman 04:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The cite you found definitely supports the line as currently written. Thanks! I am still looking for the Campus value cite though.Dothivalla 04:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Judging from the comments passing around Stanford Talk, it looks like Texas Tech doesn't have a chance at having the largest campus in the nation. It might be best to just drop the claim theway Stanford and Purdue did. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stanford_University#.22second-largest_university_complex_in_the_world.22 Dothivalla 07:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have removed the "biggest campus" claim. Lbbzman 03:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * http://www.studyusa.com/factshts/ttu.asp?s=21 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.135.11.179 (talk • contribs)


 * The cite offered for the biggest campus claim is pretty darn weak. "The main campus of Texas Tech University is one of the largest in the United States." It gives no numbers and just looks like a line someone put into an advertisement to fill out a paragraph. The advertisement didn't come from Texas Tech itself but from an oprgainization called Study USA trying to sell English classes to non-speakers. As the counter claims for biggest campus are substantially larger than the size figures for Texas Tech I don't see a reason to put the claim back in. Dothivalla 15:46, 24 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It's land acreage makes it "one of the largest" according to official numbers. http://www.depts.ttu.edu/ttpd/history.php CrIms0n 14:58, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sports Illustrated once called Tech the ugliest campus in the nation, but who cares - instead, why not put in useful information about Tech? Wikipedia:Avoid Academic Boosterism H2O 06:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Good Citation for over Billion claim?
I may have found a credible resource for the over $1 billion claim. http://www.thecb.state.tx.us/reports/PDF/1149.PDF The state of Texas uses these official numbers when insuring the Universities. The amount invested in secondary education seems paltry when considering the size of texas. CrIms0n 21:13, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Three new articles
Just helping out my fellow Big12 school here - created Texas Tech Red Raiders, The Masked Rider, and Raider Red today. I'm starting out with a copy/paste from the info that was here already and expanding from there. Hook 'em! Johntex\talk 01:12, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My response is a bit late, but thanks. I've worked on all three of those articles now. I'm especially trying to add to Texas Tech Red Raiders. --Wordbuilder 16:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Flagship status
Hello. I have reverted the edit to the infobox stating that Texas Tech is a flagship Texas university. While it's true that Tech is the flagship university of the Texas Tech system, the term "Flagship state university" has a certain connotation (at least in Texas). I believe that the University of Texas at Austin and Texas A&M University are the only designated flagship institutions. This may have changed. If so, please rerevert but cite an appropriate source. Cheers, Lbbzman 00:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi. I am going to go ahead and rerevert the addition of "Flagship" to the description in the infobox. states both, "Texas has two flagship universities - The University of Texas at Austin and Texas A&M University, all campuses combined" and "'The University of Houston and Texas Tech University must become flagship universities,' Rylander said." Now, this article is from 2000, so as I mentioned above, things may have changed. If so, please just provide a source. The fact that Texas Tech University if the flagship institution of the Texas Tech University System is adequately mentioned in the text of the article. Please discuss here before adding "Flagship" back to the infobox. Cheers, Lbbzman 13:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Libbzman - good change. Johntex\talk 16:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Although 70.129.183.229 hasn't agreed to discuss changes on this talk page, he or she has rightly pointed out that University of North Texas (and upon further research, University of Houston) also put the "Flagship" claim in their infobox. While calling any of these universities a "Flagship State University" is clearly incorrect (see my previous citation above), I wonder if a compromise would be appropriate. How about something like "State University. Flagship of the Texas Tech University System." If I can find a consensus for this article, I'll make the same proposal for the UNT and UH articles. I do agree with 70.129.183.229 that Public and State University tend to be redundant. Cheers, Lbbzman 11:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * As I said in one of my edit summaries when reverting the anonymous editor - the fact that one or more boosters have gotten a hold of the U of H and UNT infoboxes makes absolutely no difference. Citing wrong information elsewhere in Wikipedia is the absolute worst possible reason to make this article also in error.  Johntex\talk 16:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree completely. However, I was hoping that my proposal would be factually accurate and at the same time convey the "TTU is the flagship university of the TTU System, but not a flagship university of the State of Texas" message that is in question. If putting "State University. Flagship of the Texas Tech University System" still misrepresents TTU's status, then I don't want it in the infobox. Lbbzman 16:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * In principle I agree with you that compromise is possible so long as accuracy is maintained. However (1) I don't want to invent a term - so I would want to see one or more notable references that Texas Tech is generally called the flagship of the Texas Tech University System.  I don't doubt that it is, but maybe it isn't - maybe they usually call it the "central campus" or "lead campus" or something else entirely.  (2) As you point out, anonymous is not exactly engaged in discussion on this point.  Therefore, I don't see the need to do back flips to find some solution if we have no reason to suspect that anonymous would support/respect the new solution anyway.  Johntex\talk 17:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point regarding finding out whether "flagship" is even a term used to describe TTU in relation to the system. A quick Google search of texastech.edu (the system's website) doesn't show any references to Texas Tech University being the flagship institution of the system. I haven't been able to find any references when browsing texastech.edu or ttu.edu, either. I'm going to again revert the current anon wording. (You beat me to it.) Lbbzman 17:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately it will be a while before he is able to join in any dialog on this subject. I encountered the personal attacks of User:70.129.183.229 and User:Docbrown777 on Image talk:Mike leach.jpg and its associated Talk page. I have blocked them both (even though they are probably the same editor) for one month for personal attacks and incivility. Johntex\talk 17:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * To the vandal: What you have done is to vandalize this and other pages then offer that if we open a discussion with you that you will stop vandalizing while the discussion is going on.  That is not nearly good enough.  You are a blocked user using a sockpuppet accont to evade a block.  As such, it is within policy to block you indefinitely.  Speaking here for myself only, I am personally willing to give you another chance on three conditions: (1) you apologize for the vandalism you have done (2) you agree to serve out serve out the remainder of your one month block (5 days from whenever you agree) (3) you promise whatever the outcome of the discussion you will not return to vandalism. Johntex\talk 05:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Texas Tech University System Seal
To whom it may concern, please update the main page University Seal. The University recently spent 200,000 dollars getting the University seal upgraded and requires all information discussing tech to use the updated seal. The seal no longer has the cotton, please update the main page as I do not know how but please refence this site, with your eraider login http://www.texastech.edu/identityguidelines/index.php?
 * Really? I would have designed a new seal for half that.  :-)  Seriously, the link you provide requires some sort of access account/password asking for social security and the like.  When you say "Main Page" I assume you mean Texas Tech University.  The logo there seems to be the same as the one at Texas Tech's Official Website.  Therefore, it seems like we do have the correct seal. Johntex\talk 20:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

No the login is for TTU students only that is why I stated eraider to use your eraider password. The 200,000 was for a complete marketing of the university including posters, seals, commercials,etc. If somebody has a eraider login and knows how to edit the pictures please update the seals with the link I provided, THANKS!


 * I see what you mean about the image being without the cotton now.
 * Anyone can upload an image to Wikipedia, just cick the link on the left titled "Upload file" and follow the directions. Be sure to explain the source, and use the proper copryright tag for a logo:  logo  -   Since this article is semi-protected at the moment due to vandalism, you can put type the filename here (just the file name, no fancy coding) and I can add it to the article for you.
 * If you don't want to upload it we'll have to wait for someone else since I can't access the site. I could take the one of the front page of the TT website, but that one is pretty small.  Johntex\talk 22:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The only one that I see as being portrayed incorrectly is the one in the TTU system box. It shouldn't be the TTU seal - here is a line seal that looks similar but is the correct version http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TTUS_Seal_B.jpg Gen 01:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I recently corrected this. The only difference is that the TTUS seal says "System" and the TTU seal doesn't. --Wordbuilder 21:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, the seal at the top is correct. There was a whole deal where they were going to remove the cotten and a bunch of alums complained so they kept it in the seal. Now there is a simpler shield that is used that does not include the cotton but as far as the seal is concerned the cotton never left. In fact the only diffrent between the new and old seal is that the book is not tilted anymore. That 200,000 bucks is another matter too. A lot of alums and other people connected with the school felt that that was just wasted money.

Masked Rider
I've seen conflicting information on whether the 2006 Masked Rider, Amy Bell, is a junior or senior. A New Mexico newspaper near her home town of Kermit, TX, stated senior. A Tech release stated junior. Her introduction during the November 4, 2006, Texas Tech vs. Baylor game said she is a senior. My guess is senior but, since I can't nail it down, I removed that portion and just stated her major. --Wordbuilder 15:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

-Check here, it says she's a junior:

http://www.depts.ttu.edu/centerforcampuslife/MaskedRider/current.aspx

Flagship information
Although Tech is not currently a flagship of the State of Texas, it is the flagship of the university system. Some articles about the drive to make Tech the 3rd state flagship system: Interesting, at least I thought so, and I added a bit about it into the entry. Locriani 20:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * http://media.www.dailytoreador.com/media/storage/paper870/news/2007/02/01/News/Senator.To.Create.Study.To.Establish.New.Flagship.School.In.Texas-2689759.shtml
 * http://www.senate.state.tx.us/75r/senate/Archives/Arch02/p032702a.htm

The Daily Toreador
I agree that it should be merged and a redirect created. Even though I get the email version of the paper, I didn't even know there was a Wikipedia article for it. --Wordbuilder 13:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Disagree - The Daily Toreador is a newspaper, although linked to the university, there are quite a few references to the newspaper as a separate entity from the university. It would only complicate the understanding of the University if this was added into the article as a separate section.  Instead, it would probably be wiser to increase the links to the Daily Toreador article, and expand and wikify the Daily Toreador entry in this encyclopaedia.  Locriani 04:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Western Courier has its own article, and WIU is no Texas Tech. Rklawton 04:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't Merge I'm no way connected to Texas Tech besides knowing a couple of people know have attended that school. Wikipedia has several hundreds of university student-run newspapers articles. A large United States public school such as Texas Tech with a student population over 30,000 should have its own student newspaper article. The Daily Toreador "stubby" article encourages (hopefully in an informative way) visitors to expand the article. By the way, don't let my only "third" contribution to this "encyclopedia" fool you. I've been editing Wikipedia for over 3-years now. Just want to have a fresh start. (Didn't get ban or want to use "sockpuppetery" vote) --Souphanousinphone 01:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The responses bring up great points which I had not considered. The Daily Toreador article should be increased in size and more links created to it. If it gets added to the Texas Tech article, then bulked up, someone will want to split it. So, let's just save ourselves the trouble. I change my response to do not merge --Wordbuilder 16:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No one has supported merging so I am removing the tag. --Wordbuilder 13:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Dairy Barn Photo
I cut the Dairy Barn photo for two reasons. The angle of the photo made the building appear to be in a very dilapidated condition, and the photo generally did not give a good representation of the campus. The page currently has no photos of buildings on campus, some of which are gorgeous, and I feel that having that as the sole image of the campus is a little misleading. I plan to take several photos of the campus soon, including the dairy barn, and I will add them. I think I'll probably do it shortly after Arbor Day. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.69.143.134 (talk • contribs)


 * Very dilapidated as opposed to somewhat dilapidated? There are a lot of very nice buildings but that area looks like a broken down barn in the middle of a (currently with the rain) mud puddle. Anyone know if there are plans to give the Dairy Barn and its immediate surroundings a little TLC? --Wordbuilder 17:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC) Let me clarify that I am very much in support of the Dairy Barn being fully restored and becoming an integral part of the campus in honor of Tech's history. --Wordbuilder 17:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What exactly is the problem with degrees of dilapidation? I have heard plans for converting the Dairy Barn into some sort of student recreation facility; one even of it becoming a bar.  While the latter is highly unlikely, I'm sure they do intend to put it to some use.  The rebranding of the school is in full force right now.  I expect they will try to turn that into something more useful and attractive soon.  All that aside, however, the photo of the Dairy Barn was unflattering to the campus.  It's basically the ugliest thing on the Tech campus and unless its little story is told there isn't much point in having a photo of it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Elred (talk • contribs) 20:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC).  - Elred


 * I have no problem with "degrees of dilapidation." The original comment (was that written by you?), said the picture made it look "very dilapidated." Right now, the building does look bad and it's going to be difficult to get a photo of it that makes it appear otherwise. I don't disagree with removing the picture. The Dairy Barn needs its own article and, once it's fixed up, a nice picture to go along with it. Best of luck. --Wordbuilder 03:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The Dairy Barn has its own article. On a side note, since it's on the National Register of Historic Places, there's a limit on what can be done with it. Rklawton 03:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I actually knew that but had forgotten. The limitations for buildings on the National Register are not as restrictive as they are sometimes made out to be. Many such building have been modified and repurposed. The renovations, though, cannot be so great as to significantly change the look of the building compared to how it appeared during its period of significancy. Being listed on a state or local historic register may come with its own set of restrictions but I don't think that applies here. --Wordbuilder 14:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Better photos people
Come on. It is like people adding photos aren't even trying. The Biology building?!?! That is the ugliest building on campus. What's next a picture of the east side of Jones stadium?

There are plenty of good looking buildings to take pictures of and add to this article.


 * I'm about to do some work on this. If anyone wants to help, take some hi-res shots and put them up and I'll format them.  I think we should make a section on the page entitled something like "Campus and Buildings" that has little articles about the individual buildings and things like fountains, statues, art pieces etc.  I plan to wait until just after Arbor Day so everything looks really polished, and preferably a day with a clear blue sky.  I agree about the photo of the Bio building.  While I don't mind it being included, it certainly isn't representative of the campus' theme or beauty.  --Elred 05:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Someone just added a photo of the admin building and the masked rider that were taken directly from Tech's official website. Those should probably be pulled. --Elred 00:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I did my best regarding the photos; feel free to replace them with better photos, as Elred has already done. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note? ) 15:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoever added all those new pictures I'd just like to say thanks. Those are some good shots. Also thanks to whoever(maybe the same person) who re-did the Jones Stadium and the United Spirit Arena pages.


 * I believe the thanks for all of those goes to Elred. He did a great job. --Wordbuilder 02:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
I think one of our vandals is a, slightly over-weight, freshman at A&M named Trevor Mitchell. He's edited three pages, including a form of the word "shit" in each. ...does sound like an Aggie though.Elred 03:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Traditions
None of the information in the "Traditions" section is sourced. School lore is all well and fine, but this is an encyclopedia article. This section should be removed if supporting sources can not be found. Rklawton 15:40, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * By way of clarification, I mean supporting sources that don't come from the school's own website (i.e., self-sourced). The school's website helps support the idea that these traditions actually exist, but external sources featuring each event as its subject would lend credibility to the idea that each tradition is actually notable and worth including in an encyclopedia article.  I suspect such sources exist, and the article would really benefit.  Otherwise, the article looks more like a condensed version of the TTU website, and that's not what Wikipedia is about.  Rklawton 19:24, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. I'll see what I can come up with. --Wordbuilder 20:02, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, Rklawton, are you interested in helping gather references that you feel are better fitted to the article? If so, please pitch in. As it is now, I have to agree with Elred that the section should remain untagged. Look at the articles for other schools, such as University of Texas at Austin and Texas A&M University, and you will see that they cite their respective university websites as well. --Wordbuilder 21:25, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not much of a fan of over-moderation, especially in such a nebulous area as this (specifically "traditions.") First, I'd be left to wonder what would motivate someone to address this (or these) instances over VASTLY more liberal cases (some of which Wordbuilder just mentioned.) Secondly, I'd ask what third party source, generally, takes it upon themselves to publish an article about the ringing of bells or the wrapping of a university campus statue in crepe paper prior to football games.  Being a university tradition, localized, the university press and its outlets are the only ones who know and/or care enough to commit it to print.  Whether it's globally trivial is unimportant.  This entry is here so that people who seek it can find the information; for them it is noteworthy.   Is it really going to add credence to the article that we have several [1][2]'s after a mention that the saddle tramps ring the victory bells?  That will sure put that raging debate to sleep.  Should we also source that Texas Tech is, in fact, located in Lubbock?  Do we need to source that? --Elred 21:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * As an experienced editors, we know that the "some other article has this" argument isn't valid. We fix articles here one at a time.  If you wish to fix those other articles, then please do!  Next, we aren't here to serve as TTU boosters.  Websites already exist dedicated to promoting the school and its traditions.  People who want to learn all about TTU from TTU's point of view would be silly to visit Wikipedia when they could access this and a lot more of the same at the TTU website.  This is an encyclopedic article, and we have rules about self-sourcing, reliability, and especially notability.  If none of these traditions have been the subject of an article, then that's probably because they aren't notable.  If you wish to promote TTU, then I suggesting finding appropriate sources for these traditions – or more usefully, focus on the very real and material contributions TTU is making to the world.  It's a sad fact that the section describing statue wrapping is about as long as each of the articles about the university's various academic colleges.  Rklawton 21:57, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I did a little reading on your discussion page...interesting. Nice use of the Royal We by the way.  You seem to mention "notability" as if it is something that falls at your personal discretion.  Someone who is seeking information about a university is very likely to find traditions and student activities noteworthy.  In fact, those entries alone may be the target of the search for information.  You are not the judge of noteworthiness.  Frankly, it's absurd that you would come in here under the guise of a volunteer moderator and attempt to make that implication.  By that standard, over 95% of the wikipedia articles should be culled.  Clearly you've missed the point.  Wikipedia is better than a traditional encyclopedia because it has the ability to be updated by those who have specific interest in, and/or access to, a topic.  You want to trim everything that's not in Brittanica?  We need to find something better to do with our time.  ...and 'websites already exist dedicated to' almost everything. Wikipedia is a compendium of that information.--Elred 22:34, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that less than 5% of our articles have reached FA status, I think your 95% estimate a little low, but you're on the right track. Editors of various articles should strive to make each article the best it can be.  You have a vested interest in Tech, so I'm surprised you would like to attract students based on its traditions rather than on the quality or value of the education they might receive.  I find it sad that you would defend a section on statue wrapping while the article on your business school claims ZERO notable graduates.  I would think a business student might take an interest in reporting the return on the education investment his school's alumni might expect, but perhaps there's a big market for experienced statue wrappers.  Think about it.  My suggestions regarding this article were made to help improve it.  Your approach helps ensure the matriculating class expects a four (or five) year party.  Now, which approach benefits Tech?  Rklawton 03:34, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The "some other article has this" argument is valid since nearly everything on Wikipedia is based on guidelines which are formulated by community consensus. The aforementioned University of Texas at Austin article is rated as GA-Class on the quality scale for WikiProject Texas. This is only two notches below FA (or featured class). --Wordbuilder 00:31, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The Pokémon test essay explains why this argument is not valid. It's applied to AfD debates, but the only difference is we're talking about a section rather than an article, and I'm not proposing we remove the section as I am suggesting that this section should include reliable sources indicating each listed tradition's notability.  Rklawton 04:22, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's apply your logic to the article United States. The following citations point to works of the country's federal government and, therefore, make the information self-sourced. If third-party citations cannot be found, then the related portions of the article should be deleted:
 * Ref. 1 -- Population (from census.gov)
 * Ref. 4 -- Population (from cnn.com; third-party but points to the U.S. Census Bureau as its source)
 * Ref. 8 -- Economy (from cia.gov)
 * Ref. 12 -- History (from loc.gov)
 * Ref. 13 -- History (from nasa.gov)
 * Those are just the first five.
 * I've not argued against listing third-party sources in the Traditions section of the Texas Tech University article. I think it's a good idea. However, the citations from the school are adequate enough that the section can remain untagged.
 * It is unfortunate that you invest time in criticizing the article but no time in improving it. You ask, "Which approach benefits Tech?" One sure answer is, not yours. --Wordbuilder 14:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC) Also, if you're interested in the ROI for an education at Tech, there is a whole article for that at List of Texas Tech University people. There is no need to repeat each of these names in the main articles. --Wordbuilder 14:35, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I happen to come across this conversation. If you find something in another Wiki article, that doesn't give it enough credit for it to be in the article as a citation. If the article is GA, more than likely the statement has been cited, take that citation, find what you want and add it to the article with a citation.--Kranar drogin 13:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No one was advocating using other Wikipedia articles as citations. The reference to a GA-Class article I made above was to dispute the idea that drawing information from the related school's website is not permitted. --Wordbuilder 14:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Bob, let me start out with a couple of quotes. "It's a sad fact that the section describing statue wrapping is about as long as each of the articles about the university's various academic colleges."  "I find it sad that you would defend a section on statue wrapping while the article on your business school claims ZERO notable graduates."  This, to me, sounds like mere smart-ass trash talk.  The whole TT page and its sub-pages are a work in progress.  I created that business school page you're addressing a few months ago.  It's incomplete.  Does that mean we should strip a related page to match said state of incompletion?  Nope.  We should let the two pieces continue to grow as they will.  ...and as for your opinion of what is sad, here's mine:  an "MBA" whose profession is "digital" photographer/volunteer wikipedia nanny.  You might be better served to upgrade your own business website (maybe to a "geocities" site or something.)  So, off you go.--Elred 16:32, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

School Colors
The actual school colors are scarlet and black, not red and black.

http://www.ttu.edu/facts/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.197.118.48 (talk) 01:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The article is based on the official identity guidelines which states the colors are "Texas Tech Red" and "Texas Tech Black". →Wordbuilder (talk) 01:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Certain those are guidelines for printed/displayed materials - the official school colors are scarlet and black. Look at that fact page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.197.118.48 (talk) 03:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with 'anonymous' on this semantic issue. The stated colors are "scarlet and black".  The technical issue is that 'scarlet' is just a vague term for many various shades of red.  The technical color TTU uses is #CC0000 but they do traditionally call it 'scarlet'.  I'm gonna change it on the page.--Elred (talk) 03:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, one of these days I will get brave enough to do an actual 'change'. ;)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RazorDog (talk • contribs) 03:39, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the note. That quick bit of research inspired me to re-color all of our navigation templates to the official TTU color palette.  I used TTU Red, TTU Dark Red, and TTU Cream for all of the nav boxes.  ...I think it's a cool touch.--Elred (talk) 03:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I always thought it was scarlet, too. The guidelines just added a bit of confusion. There are other pages that need to be changed as well (e.g., Texas Tech Red Raiders football). I'll take care of it/them. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The article on Scarlet seems to state that it is not so vague. (And I always believe what I read on Wikipedia.) It claims that scarlet is #ff2400, which is somewhat brighter than Tech's #cc0000. Sterrettc (talk) 18:49, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Graphical representations for purposes of identification
The reason people are so "hell bent" is that these articles (some are FAs) have gone through an extensive process with scores of editors reviewing them, many with a great grasp on what policy is and isn't. These are not logos, but the official graphical representations of the mascots in question. They are being used for purposes of identification, not a simple logo used as an icon for decoration. This goes for all the pages in which you removed relevant graphics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BQZip01 (talk • contribs) 08:15, 24 December 2008
 * How is "the official graphical representation of the mascots in question" anything but a logo? Both images are tagged with the Non-free logo template; is that in error as well? I know you're just going through and mass-reverting anything I touch on non-free content, but you're very clearly wrong on this one. Our Manual of Style clearly explains that logos are not icons, and cannot be used as such. (ESkog)(Talk) 08:26, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This is "the main article on the topic to which the logo[s]" pertain. The logos are official graphical representation associated with—in this case—Texas Tech University. While other articles may discuss the images, and thus qualify them for fair use there, the images have no meaining outside of their association with the university. →Wordbuilder (talk) 09:13, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't Texas Tech Red Raiders be the "main article on the topic to which the logo[s]" pertain? --ElKevbo (talk) 16:42, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My main objection here is that they are used as icons in the infobox, rather than in an article or section discussing the mascots. (ESkog)(Talk) 16:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia works in such a way that the prevailing interpretation of the MOS wins the day right? I think that's how it goes pretty much.  So ESkog, I guess you just need to round up about 100 people who agree with you (for starters), then we'll start grinding into this issue.  We'll get the editors from TAMU (FA) and Michigan (FA) and all of those who supported their FACs to fall on our side of course, since they use similar images in their info-boxes.  Get to work son.  Either that or I guess you could admit you're in the minority and find a better use for your time.--Elred (talk) 19:40, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's enough, Eldred. You can make your point without being patronizing.  --ElKevbo (talk) 19:57, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * As long as I've made my point. Be well.--Elred (talk) 04:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The infobox is part of the article and the mascots are discussed therein. →Wordbuilder (talk) 19:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing is "discussed" in an infobox. To assert otherwise seems to be overreaching and disingenuous. --ElKevbo (talk) 20:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The discussion is in the article of which the infobox is a piece. They are part and parcel. The infobox cannot stand alone. The accusation of being "disingenuous" is uncalled for. →Wordbuilder (talk) 20:57, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I stand by my words. I'm not disputing that the infobox is important and useful but to refer to anything in it as "discussion" is silly at best.  And to then attempt to use that "discussion" to justify including non-free content is indeed disingenuous.
 * If you'd like to argue that we should change our policies related to non-free content to allow these logos in infoboxes then I might support such an argument as it seems reasonable and beneficial. But to attempt to work around our existing policies in this manner by making the material in the infobox out to be more than it is is indeed disingenuous. --ElKevbo (talk) 21:24, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You apparently have a reading comprehension problem. I said that the infobox is part of the article and the discussion takes place in the article. Perhaps I should have said the discussion takes place in the article proper or in the portion of the article outside of the infobox. Does that make it easier for you to understand? Since the infobox is intrinsically tied to the article, it's foolish to think that what is disucssed in the body of the aticle/the article proper/the portion of the article outside of the infobox has no bearing on the images contained inside the infobox.
 * Additionally, it's interesting that you would advise against personal attacks and then choose to call me disingenuous. You should follow your own guidance. →Wordbuilder (talk) 00:43, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I have withdrawn the Featured Article Review in favor of continuing the process here, as apparently there is more to that than is actually listed on the page. Why are the Manual of Style and our non-free content criteria bad ideas? Why we should carve out an exception in either one of those for a tiny, barely recognizable icon representing the university's athletics? (ESkog)(Talk) 07:29, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for withdrawing the FAR. I think this is the best place to address the issue as it relates to this article. I would still be interested to have some image experts weigh in. None of those who took part in the article's FAC process had a problem with the images in the infobox. →Wordbuilder (talk) 11:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The removal of the FAR was probably more like a tactical retreat. In the face of a dogpile of opposition he sought a new, less visible forum to wage his effort.  This isn't the best place to continue this discussion.  It's a semi-private place to discuss it that actually has little to do with the TTU page, and more to do with wikipedia policy in general.  Perpetuating the debate here hides the discussion from the general wikipedia community (which doesn't know it's being discussed as an issue on this specific page).  ESkog's edits have received heavy push-back on every page I've seen where he made similar edits.  I recommend ESkog go to the project universities main discussion area and bring about the discussion there.  That way, instead of lodging his complaint with the few editors who actively monitor TTU's pages he'll face hundreds or thousands of editors in his attempt to tip wikipedia policy. It seems like a fool's errand to me, but I don't plan to waste any more time debating it since it appears that the debate is: ONE PERSON v. CONSENSUS.  If he wants to log tens of hours trying to sway the consensus and succeeds, well 'oh well', I guess the little images come out of the infobox.  Until then, those images will remain here and on every other one of the thousand examples of such use.  The rule of the consensus is what protects wikipedia from buckling to the whims of any singular editor, and it appears to be working quite effectively.--Elred (talk) 20:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * When you are ready to discuss the images, I'd be glad to engage in a conversation with you. But I've had enough of your attacks on my motivations and my character. (ESkog)(Talk) 21:13, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Like I said, I don't have any interest in discussing the images with you. You're the one who has to convince hundreds of people (myself included) that we should bend to your interpretation of the rules.  I don't care what you've had enough of, it was and continues to be your pet issue.  You've made several acts in poor faith on this and several pages that range from your general tone, to reversion battles, to the FAR.  At this point, I don't think your concerns on this matter warrant any further discussion here.--Elred (talk) 21:32, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Added information
[Environmental Sustainability] ''In April of 2009 Texas Tech hosted a symposium that focused on making the university more environmentally friendly. The symposium focused on green architecture and design but touched upon other campus sustainability issues as well. Over the past year TTU has hosted a number of speakers that focus on environmental issues, including Doug Fine.''

''While TTU received a D on the 2009 College Sustainability Report Card, hopefully the recent lectures on campus have sparked new interest in making Texas Tech a greener institution. ''

The above information was recently added to the article. I formatted it a bit differently to better display on this page. My question is, does it belong in this article and, if so, where and how should it be worded? I lean toward excluding it. While I applaud the hosting of the symposium, it is rather insignifcant in the overall history of the university (more like news than encyclopedic content). Second, the commentary is unacceptable: "[H]opefully the recent lectures on campus have sparked new interest..." →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's any way this note or topic belongs on the page. It's the definition of Recentism and more like a 'news' blurb/editorial.--Elred (talk) 23:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * !vote # three — BQZip01 —  talk 00:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Soapsuds and the direction of his butt
I think we should remove this as it is demontrably false and is intended to disparage another institution:
 * Rationale:Its only source is a self-published source and it fails to meet requirements under verifiability:
 * 1) It involves a claim about a third party
 * 2) There is reasonable doubt as to its authenticity. A simple observation of the statue shows it does not point in the direction stated in the article. It would be like citing a picture of the White House to show that it is indeed white. The same goes for this satellite image. North is up and even a basic understanding of geometry shows the legend is wrong.

Accordingly, the part about its orientation should be amended (citing the picture) and the claim about it being pointed towards College Station removed.

Thoughts? — BQZip01 — talk 17:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * By the time you added your comments here, I had already added a third-party source. So, point one is moot. As for point two, the article clearly states that it is legend, which means it may not (and in this case, is not) true. Legends are acceptable as long as they are noted as such.


 * As far as self-sourced derogations in featured articles, it is probably appropriate to remove them. Shall we start with the following sentence from Aggie Bonfire: "Known to the Aggie community simply as 'Bonfire', the annual autumn event symbolized Aggie students' 'burning desire to beat the hell outta t.u.', a derogatory nickname for the University of Texas"? According to this, Jonathan M. Smith, the author of the source cited, is affiliated with Department of Geography, Texas A&M University. →Wordbuilder (talk) 17:45, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Third party source=good and well, but it still has parts that are demonstrably incorrect.
 * The fact that the legend is indeed false should be annotated there. To omit that leaves ambiguity and the possibility that it is true.
 * Why not rephrase it to "Texas Tech claims..." that would certainly make it true.
 * As for Bonfire, not to get too much into the weeds, but that was the official stated intent of Bonfire. In that case, it is a verifiable fact. The source is reliable and can be corroborated if you wish (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22burning+desire+to+beat+the+hell+outta+t.u.%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=). However, point taken. — BQZip01 —  talk 17:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Find a reliable, third-party source stating that the claim is untrue and the text can be changed to reflect that. Perhaps something along the lines of "While proven untrue, according to one legend..." I think that is overkill since it already says it is a legend. To say "Texas Tech claims..." is not accurate. The university itself publishes it as a campus legend, not as fact.


 * For Aggie Bonfire, to meet your standards, that corroboration should be added to the article so the derogatory term is based on more than self sourcing. →Wordbuilder (talk) 19:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have to prove that this story is false, only that there is "reasonable doubt as to its authenticity."
 * The picture shows clearly that the statue doesn't face 23 degrees north of due west. The picture has been published by a reliable third party and no one doubts that it is Will Rogers on his horse. There is no viable reason to include this claim as it is clearly false.
 * We shouldn't use the word "legend" because it is too ambiguous. A legend can be true or false unless we clarify the source of that story more clearly.
 * We could start it with "Texas Tech claims..." because that makes the story 100% true. It is a fact that they claim it. Anyone can make their own call on its truthfulness or accuracy.
 * Likewise, we could also state "Texas Tech legend states..." and then follow it with the image in question stating it doesn't appear to face the direction stated in legend
 * In any case, telling the admittedly false story without including contradictory information falls against WP:V.
 * As for the Bonfire article, it is a fact that that is the reason it was constructed.
 * In contradiction, it is a falsehood that the statue's butt faces College Station and that it faces 23 degrees north of due West. Both of these can be proven with simple measurements. If someone claims in a reliable publication that they have the longest building and someone else says, "That isn't true. Here's an image that shows a longer building." It doesn't mean that the claim isn't a claim, but the factualness of the claim is doubtful. We shouldn't omit such disclaimers. — BQZip01 —  talk 22:06, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

[outdent] According to Verifiability, the "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true". The claim meets this threshold. Your claims, while true, are original research without a reliable, third-party source. →Wordbuilder (talk) 23:23, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem is that it is verifiably false (at least parts of it). This published photo shows such a claim to be false and that is not "original research" as this photo has been published. I am not claiming anything historical is inaccurate (it was supposed to face into the sunset or that TTech made it to honor Will Rogers). A picture can show that the White House is indeed white. It could show the placement of streets. Maps can show the basic orientation of countries. Images can certainly be proof for verifiability. All this image shows is that the basic orientation is not as the legend claims.
 * Moreover, you admit the story isn't true, yet you insist it is verifiable? I would agree with the statement that "Texas Tech has a legend..." with a disclaimer that it is false or something to that effect, but we don't tell stories here that aren't true when it is known they are false. I'm sure I could point to a dozen websites that state Texas can secede from the Union or form 5 separate states if it wishes (hell, Governor Perry, an Aggie, said this too), but it doesn't make it true and it shouldn't be included because it is demonstrably false. — BQZip01 —  talk 00:32, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In a picture of the White House, I can see that it is white. In the picture you linked to, I do not even see College Station. The necessity to either know or discover data not already present forces original research.


 * It is a fact that a campus legend claims the statue was turned so the rear faces College Station. It is cited and, therefore, verifiable. You may not like it, but it is what it is.


 * You and I are unlikely to come to an agreement on this. So, we can either let it stand or wait for others to weigh in and create a consensus. →Wordbuilder (talk) 03:33, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Now that we can agree upon; that it is a campus legend and demonstrably false. Would you object to wording it as such?
 * The objection I have is twofold:
 * The statue is not turned 23 degrees from due West and that can be determined from the image.
 * Simple measurement shows the true course from the statue to College Station is 122 degrees and that's 114 degrees when magnetic variation is taken into account. I'll concede that's certainly close enough to the reciprocal of the direction the statue is claimed to face (270+23=293=direction it faces; 293-180=113=direction the butt purportedly faces). Since the statue doesn't face this way, the claim is demonstrably untrue. — BQZip01 —  talk 04:45, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I would have to agree with Worbuilder, the article does cite a source for the claim which meets WP:V. Here is an except of WP:V : "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth...". Also I believe that the article makes it clear that it is a legend.


 * Both of your objections are based on WP:OR.
 * From that photo how do you know that how many degrees it is turned? Even if we had a way to determine which way is west from the photo, the heading of the tail of statue could be distorted due to the way the photo was taken or via photo editing.
 * That is text book WP:OR specifically: "This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position." (Emphasis added.)


 * I personally have heard the legend, but do not know if it is true or not and was not able to find anything in a quick Google search. If we can find a reliable source which meets WP:V that proves the legend is false, I would be fine with the article being updated to reflect such changes. --Voltin (talk) 05:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with the photo? Surely that is enough to retract the comment about 23 degrees. Thoughts? `
 * And, sorry, I was saying we should label it as a campus legend. That it is demonstrably false is a separate matter. — BQZip01 —  talk 05:56, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not saying that anything is wrong with the photo, but like I said to extrapolate anything from the photo would require original research (see point 1 from my comment above). Like I said if we can find a source that meet WP:V, we can change it. To cite the photo would be confusing, especially because we have 2 sources (1 from Tech, 1 3rd party) the do not even hint that it might not be true. --Voltin (talk) 14:00, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a simple measurement, not analysis, and basic math. I think we would all agree that google maps is a valid site. Would you have any issue if I said it was 158 miles from San Antonio to Houston in a generally Eastern direction citing the distance and basic layout between them on the map? The same goes for this statue. It clearly doesn't face 23 degrees north of due west as the legend claims. It appears to be somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees off, but that would be WP:OR and I'm not going to quibble on that. To put this in context, it would be the difference between stating you were going northwest when in fact you were going north. Besides, I think we may be resolved here (see below), so the discussion is academic at this point. — BQZip01 —  talk 15:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

[outdent] I have no objection to changing the wording to "According to a campus legend, the statue was originally to be positioned with Will Rogers facing due west..." BQ's picture does indicate that the legend is untrue. The problem I have with it is the same one that Voltin does: it cannot stand alone to source the claim. Texas Tech's channel on YouTube recently did a MythBusters-type investigation into the claim and found it to be false. However, citing YouTube, especially in a featured article, is unwise.

The change in wording allows the information about the legend to remain while indicating that the belief itself is untrue. Unless anyone objects, I'll change it. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:28, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In general, sounds good. I'd like to see that YouTube clip (link?) and I think it meets the criteria for inclusion since it came from their channel and not YouTube at large. In other words, it is from a reliable source and is hosted on YouTube, not from an anonymous source with varying degrees of reliability. If it were broadcast elsewhere too (like the local PBS station, that would be useful too). And you thought we couldn't reach a consensus... :-) — BQZip01 —  talk 15:06, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Here you go, BQ. YouTube video →Wordbuilder (talk) 15:18, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Now, if I just wasn't at work and could actually watch it... — BQZip01 —  talk 15:26, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * FWIW, I went ahead and changed it to campus legend since we agree on that.
 * The rest: Why would we not disclose something is patently false even if reliable sources inaccurately state to the contrary? Jimbo said it best: "Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information". Given our current policies, I think WP:IAR applies in spades on this one. The only matter is the wording and how to source it appropriately, agreed? — BQZip01 —  talk 16:02, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not a matter of presenting false information as true. In that case, it would state something like, "The statue was turned so the rear would face College Station..." It is a matter of presenting a legend and is worded as such. For instance, with Robin Hood, Wikipedia is not saying he was a real person; it is only saying that there is such a character in folklore. →Wordbuilder (talk) 17:11, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, I see your point there, but we shouldn't mix fact (the spirit orgs wrap it in crepe paper) and fiction (the direction the horse points) in the same paragraph without some delineation. In fact the paragraph states almost exactly as you said it shouldn't, "To solve this problem, the statue was turned 23 degrees to the northwest so Soapsuds' rear would face southeast, toward College Station, Texas..." I agree this story should be included, as it is a popular tale, but the fact that it is false should also be prominently noted (I would contend that most/many people don't know that campus legends are, by definition, false). How can we best state this. BTW, I'm home now and the youtube video is gold! It is published by the University, so I think it is reliable enough (that its medium is YouTube is irrelevant...). — BQZip01 —  talk 22:47, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Here is the entire text of the subsection:

''One of the most well-known landmarks on campus is the statue of Will Rogers on his horse Soapsuds entitled "Into the Sunset". The statue has resided at the center of the campus since it was dedicated on February 16, 1950 by Rogers' longtime friend Amon G. Carter.[160]''

Carter claimed that Texas Tech was the ideal setting for the statue and that it would be an appropriate addition to the traditions and scenery of West Texas.[161] The statue, estimated to cost (in 1950) $25,000, stands 9 feet 11 inches (3 m) and weighs 3,200 pounds (1,450 kg).[162] The inscription on the plaque at the base of the statue reads: "Lovable Old Will Rogers on his favorite horse, 'Soapsuds', riding into the Western sunset."[163]

''According to one campus legend, the statue was originally to be positioned with Will Rogers facing due west, so that it would appear he was riding into the sunset. However, that position would cause Soapsuds' posterior to face due east, towards the main entrance of the school. The horse's rear would also be facing downtown Lubbock, potentially insulting the Lubbock business community. To solve this problem, the statue was turned 23 degrees to the northwest so Soapsuds' rear would face southeast, toward College Station, Texas, home of rival Texas A&M University.[163][164] Before every home football game, the Saddle Tramps wrap the statue with red crepe paper. In times of national tragedies, the statue has also been wrapped in black crepe paper.[163]''

The first two paragraphs should be combined as they both deal with Amon G. Carter. The information about the Saddle Tramps should be moved to form a second paragraph, though an additional sentence will be needed.

The third paragraph will be entirely about the campus legend. Reword the College Station sentence to read: "Although now proven apocryphal, the legend holds that this problem was solved by turning the statue 23 degrees to the northwest so Soapsuds' rear would face southeast, toward College Station, Texas, home of rival Texas A&M University." Add the link to the video as a citation. →Wordbuilder (talk) 15:47, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me. [Edit: Also the previous image placement looks better on a 1024x768 and 1280x800 screen. It messes up the Texas Tech Ring title on a 1680x1050 screen, but that is due to it's akward placement.] --Voltin (talk) 19:29, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me too. — BQZip01 —  talk 01:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is this sentence there?
Even though growth continued at Texas Tech, the university was not immune to controversy.

Second to last paragraph in the history section. I can't say I understand why this sentence is included when talking about the free speech pavilion. Anyone know why? NThomas (talk) 04:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It's simply a transition to the lawsuit. If there is a controversy, both sides of the debate and its significance should be discussed. I think the bubonic plague mishap would be more controversial though. — BQZip01 —  talk 04:31, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with BQ; it's intended to serve simply as a transition from the good (growth) to the bad (suppression of free speech). While the bubonic plague incident was unfortunate, it seems to be more about the actions of one individual rather than about the actions of the university as a whole. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I was just curious. I see now that its a transition. Thanks for a quick answer guys!NThomas (talk) 19:52, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Aw shucks, Itwern't nuttin' :-) — BQZip01 —  talk 03:58, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Adding some subsections
I know this is already a FA so I'm just throwing this idea out there so I don't jeopardize the article's status. In he interest of making the article easier to navigate, I'm curious about adding subsections into the article. It seems like the History section could be divided into three subsections: An Establishment (or Founding or Early years or Beginning years, etc.) subsection from The call to open a college in West Texas began... to ...the college saw its enrollment leap to 5,366 from a low of 1,696 in 1943. Expansion and growth from By the 1960s, the school had expanded its offerings... to ...four Texas cities in addition to the main campus in Lubbock. Recent history from In 1996, the Texas Tech Board of Regents created... to the end of the section ..are eligible for match under the Texas Research Incentive Program. If this won't effect the article's FA class status, I'll go ahead and add the subsections make the article easier to navigate.

NThomas (talk) 06:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Looking in the talk page's archives, this has already been brought up before when the history section was only ~660 words a little over a year ago. The reason the subsections weren't added because there wasn't enough information to justify the subsections. As of it's current revision, the history section is ~1,100 words. This is almost exactly the same size as Texas A&M's and UT Austin's; both have three subsections in their history sections. Even though both schools have a 50 year head start in their history compared to Texas Tech, there is clearly three distinct "ages" to Tech's history: Early years as a small agricultural school, regional college, and now it's modern period as an established national university. NThomas (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I have no objection to the adding of the subsections. It would make the section easier to navigate. →Wordbuilder (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Big 12 WikiProject
I'm trying to gauge the interested in created a Big 12 WikiProject and wondering who would like to be involved. There are already pages for WikiProject Big Ten and WikiProject ACC. A Big 12 project would cover the schools themselves and anything to do with conference sports including: events, rivalries, teams, seasons, championships and lore. There is already quite a bit of activity here on Wikipedia regarding the Big 12, and I think a project could help coordinate and unify our efforts. Please see WikiProject Council/Proposals/Big 12 if you are interested, and add your name to the list. Grey Wanderer (talk) 00:22, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Tier One progress
Here's an TTU story about an increase in restricted research expenditures and new projections in exceeding the $400 million endowment benchmark for Tier One status:. I couldn't really find an appropriate place in the article to add the updated increase in restricted research expenditures (from $27million to $35million). Is it even relevant for the article? NThomas (talk) 04:26, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Tier One info is in the last paragraph of the "Recent history" subsection. Think we could work it in there? →Wordbuilder (talk) 04:34, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the biggest part of the article was the The bold section seemed significant. Maybe in a sentence in the research section. Possibly after ? NThomas (talk) 03:55, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

I think the endowment is wrong.
The link and source seems right but according to this from TTU, Tech is <$400million. The article's infobox shows ~$800m. Maybe the $800m is a system endowment? NThomas (talk) 15:48, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * You may be right. I've seen this with other university articles where the system endowment is listed rather than the university endowment. If that is the case, it should be corrected. →Wordbuilder (talk) 16:15, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I've been looking for awhile to find just the TTU endowment and the closest I could get was: "a little under $400m" and another that had the HSC endowment but included TTU and ASU. No help there either. NThomas (talk) 01:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's hard to understand what the TTU endowment really is. The NABUCO study lists something like $750m, but TTU says it's about $400m.  ...but the NABUCO study number is NOT system wide because the Angelo State endowment is not rolled into that number.  If it was really system wide it would be TTU-TTHSC-ASU combined.  My assumption is the NABUCO thing lists the combined endowment of TTU-TTHSC.--Elred (talk) 18:13, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I've looked into this before. The number listed IS with Angelo States endowment rolled into it. The NACUBO states it is system wide and though Angelo State used to be included individually in this list it is no longer. ASU's endowment is around 98 million according to the university and US News. That is gathered with TTU & TTHSC to come up with the current figure.NativeTexan55 (talk) 03:22, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Can someone explain why Wikipedia reports Texas Tech's endowment in terms of the $434 million attached to the Lubbock campus not including the Health Sciences Center? Wikipedia reports Louisiana State University's endowment as $554.8 million even though that figure is explicitly "Systemwide." Further, the vast preponderance of the NACUBO figure for Texas Tech (>$800 million) is dedicated to the units of the Lubbock campus, but a great deal of the figure quoted for LSU is actually dedicated to the LSU HSC in New Orleans (89 miles from LSU's main campus in Baton Rouge).

The NACUBO figures are used for Texas A&M University, University of Oklahoma, University of Texas at Austin, etc.

We don't need an edit war. What we need is consistency. Rammer (talk) 06:29, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

2nd largest campus
The statement 'With 1,839 acres (7.44 km2), it has the second largest contiguous campus in the United States " is an urban legend.  Somehow the rub in this statement has been the word 'contiguous' and folks say the Air Force Academy is bigger because of the runways.  Another myth.

Even if you can find some statement in a Tech Publication to state this is true - it is wrong All it takes is looking at some entries in Wikipedia to disprove this myth. Stanford University has over 8,000 acres on its main contiguous campus. Hell, I'm pretty sure the >5000 acres Texas A&M lists is part of there urban campus.

RazorDog (talk) 02:49, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Neither of the article's sources for the claim are from Texas Tech publications. →Wordbuilder (talk) 03:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The standard of inclusion for Wikipedia is WP:Verify, to which the claims in this article adhere. The source used for the claim in the Stanford article is merely a mirror of that article. It's unreliable and should be replaced or the claim should be removed. I've tagged it. →Wordbuilder (talk) 04:33, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I wasn't saying it was from a Tech pub - just saying the few that are out there are incorrect.
 * I don't see where that claim is verified - but it is incorrect. I'm not sure it is even in the top 10.
 * The Stanford article is probably more correct than the Tech claim:  Stanford's contiguous 8,180 total acres are in six different governmental jurisdictions:http://www.stanford.edu/about/facts/lands.html
 * Check out Berry Colleges size: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_College
 * Duke has 4 campuses - one contiguous segment is 7200 acres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_University#Campus  RazorDog (talk) 05:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Even if the Stanford article "is probably more correct", it provides no source for the claim. Berry College also provides no source for its claim, and I could not find a 7,200 acre campus mentioned in the Duke article, though I did find a 720 acre campus mentioned. At least the Texas Tech article cites its claim using reliable, third-party sources. (I'd don't know why you can't see where the claim is verified.) So, it meets the standard for inclusion. Further, pointing to this article or that to make comparisons is original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. →Wordbuilder (talk) 03:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The Stanford link is it's own source - It is the official website from Stanford. How much more verifiable do you need?
 * The Berry link will take you to it official website. Where a look at the 'Quickfacts' and you will see this quote:  "Berry has the world’s largest contiguous college campus, spanning more than 26,000 acres of woodlands, meadows and streams."  There is that 'contiguous word you are looking for.
 * Just click on the link I provided and you will see where the Duke Forrest is considered part of their campus - it is 7200 acres and a simple look at a map will show that it is contiguous. It may not say it in the Duke link but it is pretty easy to verify.  Simple addition should make it clear.


 * Not sure why you are so insistent about the rumor, but you will find no credible link that does not originate from a Tech source. I have been searching since I heard this nonsense in 1983 - I have found no verifiable source.
 * (RazorDog (talk) 00:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC))

The University of the South is 13,000 contiguous acres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sewanee:_The_University_of_the_South, Berry College (as noted above) has a ton of space as well. 68.58.156.55 (talk) 01:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC) meant to sign this myself ... Shoopdawhoop-lazor (talk) 01:16, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see the word "contiguous" in the University of the South article. At any rate, the claim there is not cited and only 1,000 of the acres are developed. See my response above regarding Berry College and regarding WP:Verify and WP:OR. →Wordbuilder (talk) 03:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * regardless, there's no citation for the statement, "With 1,839 acres (7.44 km2), it has the second largest contiguous campus in the United States." Neither for the size of the university nor for it's ranking as the "second largest contiguous campus". Given that there are several (though you would dispute them) examples of larger campuses and that there's no citation, I don't see how this passes WP:Verify Shoopdawhoop-lazor (talk) 05:11, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * How does it not satisfy the requirements of WP:Verify, which states "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth&mdash;whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true" (bold text from source)?


 * Here is the direct quote from the article, including citations from two reliable, third-party sources: "Situated on 1839 acre, Texas Tech has the second largest contiguous university campus in the United States."



→Wordbuilder (talk) 15:18, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * which article are you talking about, my point was it's not actually cited on the page, if the citation was there, then I have no objection, but right now it's not. Shoopdawhoop-lazor (talk) 15:35, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It's in the "Campus" section (it took me a while to find it, too; it would have been helpful if Wordbuilder had pointed us to its location). Those are pretty dubious sources, particularly the second one, but I'm not inclined to waste time and energy on this.  But if this were true then I'd think one could find much better sources in sources that are actually relevant and authoritative. ElKevbo (talk) 15:52, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry for not being more precise. Every claim in the lead is mirrored in the body of the article where the citations are. I'm curious why you find the second source to be particularly dubious. →Wordbuilder (talk) 20:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The bibliographic details are sketchy but it's a good guess that the reference is to a paper presented at the "Third Symposium on Health and Human Services in the United States and Mexico." I generally don't think it's a good idea to try to reference geographic information about a university from a paper presented at a health and human services conference as it seems unlikely to have been material on which the presenters are experts.
 * It would be very helpful if more bibliographic information were provided, particularly the author(s). If the information is indeed from a paper presented at the conference then we should definitely have the name of the paper's author(s) and the name of the paper itself. ElKevbo (talk) 20:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I'll see if I can come up with more details. →Wordbuilder (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I wanted to bring this topic back to the surface. I am a representative of Texas Tech University and can verify that this information is incorrect. It is much like the Will Rogers & Soapsuds urban legend, in that it runs rampant, but is completely incorrect. Any verifiable source that has published this information did not themselves verify. As the university, we constantly are combating this. Is this enough to justify removal of this statement? I think the difficult part of this statement, is that there will never be a source that states, "Texas Tech is not the second largest contiguous campus in the United States." Allisonmatherly (talk) 12:55, 6 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally, I no longer oppose the claim being removed from the article. It's not because it doesn't meet Wikipedia's standard of verifiability (it does) or because claims to represent Texas Tech (which is likely true but unproven) but because it likely is inaccurate and just not that important. →Wordbuilder (talk) 23:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * I apologize for not verifying my identity, (and for the differences in names, I recently got married and changing your name everywhere is difficult!). Here is a link to my Texas Tech bio page, if it helps. If no one else disagrees with removing this statement, I'll remove it from the entry. Thanks! Allisonmatherly (talk) 15:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Congratulations on your recent wedding. I removed the multiple names from my previous post, leaving only your username. →Wordbuilder (talk) 22:08, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, but by size, the campus at Texas Tech is the largest in the United States. Much of what you see on campus is used land, however there is major additional land to be used as the university expands. This includes land not presently developed but owned by the University and includes all property outside the Rawls golf course all the way to the Levelland exits to the west and to McKenzie Park to the East. To put things in perspective, you could put all of the Air Force Academy in just the main campus at Lubbock and still have much land to spare. There is no myth or legend behind this, it is simply fact that the campus has yet to fill all the acres available to it as of 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.87.109.232 (talk) 18:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)


 * That may well be the case but, to add it to the article, a reputable, third-party source must be available as "proof." At this point, even a representative of the university is disputing that Texas Tech is even the second largest in the country. →Wordbuilder (talk) 02:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

TTU alumni or TTUHSC alumni
I was creating categories for Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center (TTUHSC) and noticed Bernard A. Harris, Jr. is listed here as a Texas Tech University (TTU) alumni, not a TTUHSC alumni. According to the Texas Tech University System (TTUS), TTUHSC is a separate institution from TTU similar to how University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center is separate from the University of Texas at Austin, but both are part of the University of Texas System. I've already removed Harris from this page and replaced the existing Category:Texas Tech University alumni with the appropriate Category:Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center alumni. There may be others listed in the TTU alumni category that need to be moved to the TTUHSC category. NThomas (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Interviews with Texas Tech students
Unfortunate thing to watch here.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:02, 22 November 2014 (UTC)


 * People are ignorant all over, generally speaking. Whether it's even worse in the U.S., I don't know. It wouldn't surprise me. That said, I'm sure videos like this make it look worse than it is, so as to more effectively make the point they want to make, and to get wider circulation. There's some cherry-picking going on there. &#8209;&#8209; Mandruss  &#9742;  17:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a function of sample size. Interview enough people and you could get the same result at any school in the country. Not relevant to the article as a whole  Falcon8765  (T ALK ) 02:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? You'd get five students who draw blank looks, when asked 'who won the Civil War', at Stanford, Wesleyan, Rice, any of the nation's top 200 colleges? I doubt it; still, in this case, it seems there was cherry-picking happening in the sense of choosing the most clueless sounding students, for entertainment value, to make a point about interest in celebrity versus interest in history.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:24, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Please see #4 under WP:FORUM. →Wordbuilder (talk) 08:57, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

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Major concerns with this featured article
A quick skim brought up the following major issues Hopefully these can be addressed. ~ HAL  333  00:21, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Much of the material is dated and hasn't been updated since this article's promotion.
 * There is a heavy dependence on primary sources.
 * The images lack alt text.