Talk:Texas Tech University traditions

Layout
Should we break these things up into == and === heading pieces? I think it looks kinda funky with a bunch of horizontal lines all over the place.--Elred (talk) 22:36, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * fellas, let's hold off on linking this page to the main TTU page until we get it presentable.--Elred (talk) 23:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it looks good the way it's broken up now (sections and subsections). Obviously some overall text/image adjustment needs to take place. I'm going to submit something from this article to WP:DYK. That has to be done before it is five days old. So, if we want it looking better, we need to get to work. Also, does anyone have suggestions for what that fact should be? →Wordbuilder (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Great job on the article guys! As for the DYK, I think we have the best shot with the fact that the Masked Rider was the first horse ridden mascot for football. I've looked but I don't have many sources to back that up, but maybe y'all know of some? We could also submit something about wrapping Will Rogers and Soapsuds before every home game or something about the supposed Blarney Stone.--Almosthonest06 (talk) 00:49, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Masked Rider being the first horse mascot would probably be the best DYK (if it's true). Honestly though, I've run out of wikipedia gas for a while.  I'm going to relegate myself to the betterment of graphics/photos for a while.--Elred (talk) 03:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I like The Masked Rider bit. But, it's uncited. I'll look for something. If not, then one of the other two. I can submit one as a primary and one as an alternate and let the DYK guys pick. →Wordbuilder (talk) 03:15, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I found a couple of sources for the Masked Rider bit.
 * At the 1954 Gator Bowl, The Masked Rider became the official mascot and the first horse-ridden mascot in major college sports. I don't know how reliable of a source Deadspin is though.
 * After all, no school mascot rode a live horse at that time. This one from Texas Tech news releases.--Almosthonest06 (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

[outdent] That should be enough for DYK. Let's put in both. Even if the first source is 100%, it's backed up by the one from Tech. →Wordbuilder (talk) 21:55, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Gap at the top
There is a huge gap on the right side at the top of the page. I was thinking that we could put the wrapped Will Rogers statue there with a caption along the lines of, "The wrapping of the statue of Will Rogers and Soapsuds is a prominent tradition at Texas Tech," or some variation. Since the section on Will and Soapsuds is mostly about the statue and the story of why it's there, we could put a picture of the statue itself in the wrapped one's place. I'm trying to find info on when the wrapping started and why. Until then, yay, nay?--Almosthonest06 (talk) 08:30, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea. I swapped the one that was lower in the article and moved it to become the lead image, which I set at 300px in accordance with the Manual of Style. I'm so used to having an infobox, I forgot about having a standalone image there. →Wordbuilder (talk) 15:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Raiderred.png
The image Image:Raiderred.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --04:01, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Concern addressed. →Wordbuilder (talk) 14:42, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The direction of Soapsuds' derriere
First of all there is the issue of plagiarism (common phrasing in bold, but realize the entire thing is basically a paraphrase of the website):
 * The article:
 * "According to one legend, the statue was originally to be positioned with Will Rogers facing due west, so that it would appear he was riding into the sunset. However, that position would cause Soapsuds' posterior to face due east, towards the main entrance of the school. The horse's rear would also be facing downtown Lubbock, potentially insulting the Lubbock business community. To solve this problem, the statue was turned 23 degrees to the northwest so Soapsuds' rear would face southeast in the general direction of College Station, Texas, home of rival Texas A&M University. Before every home football game, the Saddle Tramps wrap the statue with red crepe paper. In times of national tragedies, the statue has also been wrapped in black crepe paper."
 * The University website:
 * "''According to one legend, the plan to face Will Rogers so that he could be riding off into the sunset did not work out as it would cause Soapsuds' rear to be facing downtown. To solve this problem, the horse and Will was turned 23 degrees to the east so the horse's posterior was facing in the direction of Texas A&M, one of the school's rivals.
 * "Before every home football game the Saddle Tramps wrap Old Will with red crepe paper. Will Rogers and Soapsuds have also been wrapped up in black crepe paper to mourn national tragedies.''"

Secondly, there is the issue of accuracy. The statue faces 23 degrees to the West of due North or about 337°, as the cited source states, not "23 degrees to the northwest" from "east" (270° + 23°= 293° ≠ 337°) as the article states.

Third, there is the issue of the false claim that the horse's butt faces Texas A&M/College Station. The article states it faces the "general direction" of College Station while the University website claims it faces the direction of college station. This is a complete urban legend unsubstantiated by the facts. The horse head points at approximately 337°. The rear end, therefore, would point the opposite direction (337°-180°=157°). I'm not going to quibble over a few degrees here and there, so let's give this idea ±15° to account for measuring errors (that's 30° of error to work with, extremely generous IMHO). The problem is that the direction needed to go from Lubbock to College Station is 113°. You are welcome to check my measurements, but I'm also a rated navigator with the Air Force, so I'd say I have at least a decent understanding of the topic. This would make the claim off by 44°. This is like being in Boston and stating Dallas is in the general direction of Miami. — BQZip01 — talk 18:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * First, regarding plagiarism. A few words can be changed, but changing other words ("crepe paper", "Saddle Tramps", etc.) would change the meaning. And, matching up of things such as "he" to prove your point is just silly. Of course it is just a paraphrasing of the source. That's what all of Wikipedia is or should be. If what is stated here goes beyond what is contained in the source, then it is no longer supported.


 * Second, as far as accuracy goes, I agree. There appears to be an error in regard to the direction in which the statue was turned.


 * Third, "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Besides that, you should familiarize yourself with the definition of "legend". Legends and facts are usually at odds.


 * Finally, the picture and your credentials are fine but they simply boil down to original research. The citation cannot say, "Because BQZip01 says so". →Wordbuilder (talk) 19:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth" but WP:V clarifies that by stating "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves...so long as...it does not involve claims about third parties... [and] there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity..." Since it involves claims about a third party (namely Texas A&M), this should not be included in this manner. This is something that anyone can tell by simply looking at a map and a geographically aligned picture of Soapsuds. We don't need to include legends that are not facts or are demonstrably proven to be false in an encyclopedia without prefacing it with such a disclaimer. Now, I have no problem with you stating "While Texas Tech claims...", since this is certainly true (they indeed claim it), but also stating that the actual direction is considerably off by citing a relevant source (like, realize this source is a bit off, but that's because we're looking at True course and not magnetic and the points aren't exactly the same, but extremely close. At that range, 1 degree=5.56 miles off course, so I'm willing to throw a little slop in there). — BQZip01 —  talk 20:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The very definition of "legend" makes it clear that the associated text is likely apocryphal. If the source asserted that the claim is fact, I would agree that it is questionable. However, it asserts only that it is a legend. In point of fact, Texas Tech does not claim that Soupsuds rump points toward College Station. (Correct me if you can show otherwise.) The school only recounts that there is a campus legend claiming such. The map you link to is not an appropriate source since it does not address the issue. The reader would be forced to interpret it, so it's original research. I will link the word "legend" for others who are unfamiliar with its definition. →Wordbuilder (talk) 21:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If you are going to quote exact phrasing, it is appropriate to put it in quotes or rephrase. The reason I included "he", et. al. is that there are complete sections, with only minor rewrites, taken from that page without proper quotation. — BQZip01 —  talk 20:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The wording has been sufficiently changed to avoid plagiarism while remaining true to the source. →Wordbuilder (talk) 21:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In general, I agree, but made a few tweaks. — BQZip01 —  talk 22:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, BQ. Glad we could iron this. →Wordbuilder (talk) 22:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Never thought we couldn't. :-) — BQZip01 —  talk 00:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move to Traditions of Texas Tech University
Maybe the article's title should change and the article moved to match similar articles. NThomas (talk) 03:06, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Which similar articles? Taking a look at this shows that most articles of this type are named using the format utilized by this article. The exceptions are: Student activities and traditions at UC Irvine, Student life at the University of Pennsylvania, Traditions of Texas A&M University, and Cornelliana (which is an invented word so a bit different). In fact, of the twelve pages in the category, only Traditions of Texas A&M University use the exact format you want for this article. →Wordbuilder (talk) 18:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Raiderville
I'm glad quickly moved this from the main article. However, I think we should remove it altogether, either permanently or until it can be sourced and rewritten. As it is now, it doesn't even read like it's a tradition, "During the Red Raiders' 2008-2009 successful football season..." The rest of the paragraph is likely WP:OR and the grammar leaves a bit to be desired. →Wordbuilder (talk) 15:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with it being removed. If it had multiple sources, maybe it should have been considered for inclusion. I don't know exactly how long something needs to happen for it to be a tradition, but hopefully in the future, a wikippropriate Raiderville can be added. NThomas (talk) 07:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)