Talk:Thích Nhất Hạnh/Archive 2

Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings
There have been attempts in the past to add information on TNH's teachings, but they have been removed due to neutrality issues. However, the potential remains to include information about his teachings in an objective way, presenting both the positive and negative responses to them, his impact on Western Buddhism, etc. Nightngle 13:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

IPA
What are the superscripted numbers in the IPA prounciation? &mdash; goethean &#2384; 19:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Since no-one seems to know, I will remove them. &mdash; goethean &#2384; 18:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Presumably they indicate tone.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!) 08:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Are we ready to apply for "Featured Article Status"?

 * I've created footnotes for the page and will work on learning how to and adding "References". Seems like more references are needed to support the statements. I've got some good references to add, so I'll track those down. What else should be done/added? - Nightngle 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The article has been expanded and lots of footnotes added. Is a section on references needed as well? I'll read up on the subject, but if anyone would care to chime in, that would be most helpful. - Nightngle 22:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions and to-do list:

 * Creating a "person data" box - done
 * Creating a "Info box biography"
 * I'm not very happy with the looks of this box; I think there needs to be a temple for an infobox for Buddhist teachers. I'll propose that at the Buddhism Portal.
 * I've created a Template:Infobox Buddhist teacher - this may change if the folks at the Buddhism project feel changes are needed to make it more universal across schools, but it's a start
 * Minor details for links, spaces, and dates
 * Expanding the lead so that it provides an overview of the article
 * Add section on TNHs Teaching
 * Review footnotes to be sure citations are done correctly and are consistent
 * Work on the quality of the writing
 * I tried reading the article out loud to see how it sounds, and there are some areas where the flow is a bit choppy.

The suggestions so far are very helpful - Thanks! Nightngle 14:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

unicode markers
I removed these some time ago because no-one could tell me what they were. can we add some clarifying link or note to the IPA entry? &mdash; goethean &#2384; 20:52, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I remember you removing them, but was a bit uneasy about removing them since I'm not an expert at IPA formats. I went through the history to see if I could find the original entry for this, but unfortunately, the person who put it in wasn't logged in at the time, so I can't contact them. I've been working hard to get this article up to FA standards and want to be sure the IPA is correct and as specific as the IPA nerdlingers would want. I'll do my homework on this, but you may be right that they don't belong.Nightngle 21:37, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

German wikipedia about Thich Nhat Hanh
One can read there that Thich Nhat Hanh has got two children together with Sister Chan Khong. The reference is a book written by another Vietnamese person. Have you ever heard about that? Austerlitz 88.72.12.205 20:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't heard about this claim, but thank you for adding this to the talk page so we can explore it. I can not read German, but do have contacts within the Order of Interbeing who are Vietnamese and could translate the Vietnamese text. The bottom line however, is the quote above that is Wiki policy: "Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous." Claiming that a monk who requires celebacy of his order has children out of wedlock would be a scandalous claim. It would also mean that TNH broke his root vows and is no longer a monk. Any claim, made by a Vietnamese person or not, would still need to be one that is verifiable and reliable. I do realize that Wikipedia articles are not about researching to find "the truth", but reporting what's out there, but I don't think that should include every idea that someone decides to put out there. If this turns out to be something both TNH and Sister Chan Khong verify (I would think that their children would be difficult to hide from the world), then it would be notable and should be included. While I do have a bias, I study TNHs teachings, I have worked hard to remain objective in working on this article. I certainly won't object to this claim's inclusion if it is proven true, however, I will certainly delete any inclusions of it until it meets the standards for inclusion in Wikipedia articles about living persons.Nightngle 22:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't have any problems with believing that and I would not judge it to be scandalous. Their children would not be difficult to hide from the world, they could easily live as monk and nun in Plum Village, for example. The information was: They have two children together, a son named Tri Nhat (born in 1969) and a daughter named Tri Nguyet (reference, book "Giac Thay Chua" written by "Dang Van Nham). In case you want to delete this information from the Talk page, too, please try to find out by yourself, given the personal contacts you have. Austerlitz 88.72.11.82 10:24, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The info I've gathered so far is that the person who makes this claim is somewhat notorious in writing exposés about famous Vietnamese people. But while you don't find it scandalous, it most certainly is, since monks and nuns take vows of celebacy and are not considered to still be monks or nuns if they violate a root vow, which this is. At any rate, I'll continue to look into this, but not much verification is to be found at this point. It's fine that the discussion remains here for objectivity sake. Nightngle 23:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it would be best if you could ask Thich Nhat Hanh and Sister Chan Khong themselves. I think they will not lie to you about it. In case it should be true, it would be time for the children to be recognized with their existence,not having to hide anymore; I think. Austerlitz 88.72.28.167 19:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I can assure you that this is a false claim - TNH and Sister Chan Khong do not have children together.Nightngle 23:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

How can you? Since I don't know Vietnamese people whom I could ask, can you please do this? The book (reference, book "Giac Thay Chua" written by "Dang Van Nham) has not been translated into another language, it is there in Vietnamese (if this is the name of the language) only. What has he written about the subject? That he is a "notorious" writer doesn't label him to be a liar, does it? Austerlitz 88.72.20.77 19:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I said that I would contact a member of the Order of Interbeing, and that's exactly what I did. They know about this claim, have read the book, and refute this as false. It is something that the Order believes is best ignored, since giving this kind of thing attention tends to stir things up instead of calming things down. You need to understand that not all Vietnamese people like or appreciate TNH. Even though he has explained numerous times that he did not take either side during the war, some Vietnamese believe that his efforts for peace supported the communists. There is a Vietnamese writer who is a contributer to a scholarly work on Buddhism, who added a chapter on Vietnamese Buddhism and claimed that TNH is not ordained to teach and that his teachings have nothing to do with Vietnamese Buddhism. Neither of these claims is true either, but it didn't stop him from making these false statements. I'm not sure why you're so ready to believe this claim of TNH having children, but this page is about an encyclodedic article about TNH and must be factual. This remains an unsubstantiated claim and at this point, we've said all we need to say about it. Nightngle 00:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I would have liked to read a translation of the lines of the book referring to that claim. I can imagine that not all Vietnamese people like or appreciate TNH. That's another point, though. I would like to know because for me this is a matter of trusting. Things can happen because of love not matching some rules, but hiding the truth means not being trustworthy. Austerlitz 88.72.28.201 13:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The people I talked to have read the book. I will be getting the book and will translate it myself and will report here. You can order the book, too, you know. It's interesting to me that you trust the author of this book and are ready to believe this claim, yet believe that TNH is hiding the truth. Why not the other way around? At any rate, a claim like this can not stay "secret" for long (if it were true, imagine people in their 30's "hiding" out, especially among the 800+ people who visit Plum Village every retreat season!). However, this is not the point - this article is an encyclopedic one, not an exposé. Perhaps you should consider attending a retreat at Plum Village - not only could you ask the questions you have, you'd certainly benefit from learning more about the practice, whatever answer you get. Nightngle 16:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Statue of Responsibility
The Statue of Responsibility article and the Statue of Responsibility Foundation attribute the idea to Victor Frankl. If the quote about the Statue of Responsibility is accurate, I think it gives a misleading impression that the statue was Nhat Hahn's idea. --65.148.145.66 16:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you for pointing this out. I have replaced the quote. Although the previous quote was sourced and found on the PBS website, it does give the impression that the idea was TNH's as opposed to him referencing the work of Frankl. The source article is not clear, so I'm glad this was pointed out so that it doesn't give the wrong impression. I've added a new quote which is more clearly TNH's ideas and words. Nightngle 22:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Zen Master discussion
(copied from my talk page) It seems that you or someone has erased the reference to Thay as a Zen Master. I have re-inserted it.

At the time that I did all the research for this article last spring I was in contact with Sister Annabel, Brother Phap Nguyen, Brother Phap Bi, and, through them, with Sister Chan Khong. At the time it seemed quite clear as to what the question was, and it seemed quite clear as to what Sister Chan Khong's answer was.

In any case the direct authority is Thay himself, who signs our ordination papers as "Dhyana Master ... of the Lam Te Dhyana School". If this is not so, then why doesn't Thay sign the certificates as "Dharmacharya ... of the Lam Te Dhyana School"?

Several comments about the discussion in the archives:

1. The paper by Nguyen and Barber, in the book edited by Prebish: I have this book in front of me, as I also had it last spring when I was doing this research. Nguyen and Barber interviewed two Vietnamese clerics, from which they derived the statement, "In contrast, Thich Nhat Hanh, though he was never known as a Ch'an master in Vietnam, has become known as a famous master in the West." From this some people have gotten the meaning that Thay was never received Dharma transmission. Since Thay received Dharma Transmission on May 1, 1966, just 10 days before he left Vietnam both sides of this issue can be literally correct. Thay was not widely known as a Ch'an master in Vietnam because he wasn't named as one until just before he left Vietnam. Nguyen and Barber's statement is literally true though it has been widely misinterpreted to mean much more than it says.

2. The archives contain a statement that the Plum Village web site contains no reference to Thay as a Zen Master. This is simply not true. Let me say that again, simply not true. Look for example at http://www.plumvillage.org/howToHelp.htm in the second paragraph. More to the point is the wonderful paper by Thay Phap Dung, "A Letter to Friends About Our lineage", which refers to Thay as a Zen Master and gives our lineage back for 8 generations of Zen Masters.

This is the first time I have looked at the Wikipedia since our discussion last summer. It made me literally sick to my stomach that people could be so destructive, seemingly just on a whim, such as the fellow who seemed to vow to erase all copies in the world of the phrase "Zen Master", or even worse, the many parties who act out of jealousy or political anger against Thay.

Bert Mayo, Chân Tuê. An, Order of Interbeing


 * Bert, I'm moving this discusion to this page where it is more appropriate. I want to address some of your points.
 * The term Zen Master is a tricky one. There really isn't an ordination that bestows this title on a person in our school. This makes use of the term in an encyclopedia article about TNH a bit iffy. I have put the term in the "Names applied to him" section of the article, attributed to the laingmai.org site using that term in Vietnamese. I think it's most appropriately mentioned in that section, and we can certainly add the information that TNH signs documents "Dhyana Master" to that section.
 * I am going to revert your edit, though, because the comment you've added isn't verifiable. Being given lamp transmission is to become a Dharmacharya or Dharma teacher, that is not the same as "Zen Master". Now, if you have a citation that can clear that distinction up, that would be most interesting and we could then include that. However, as a member of the Order yourself (as am I - my Dharma name is Chan Lac An), you know that members of the order, lay and monastic, receive lamp transmission from Thay and are Dharmacharyas. Do we call those folks Zen Masters? No, actually, we don't - and I think there would be quite the uproar if any of the Dharmacharyas called themselves Zen Masters, don't you?
 * Part of the controversy, especially as outlined in the Prebish book, is also about TNH's authority to start his own order, ordain monks and nuns, etc. In fact, Thay has said that he did not have permission to start the Order of Interbeing, but he did it anyway. These distinctions and details are not well documented nor understood, even by monastics in our own order. I think that until we have more information that is documented, we need to shy away from this material in this Wikipedia article. It's going to be difficult to unearth that info, though, especially since we really don't have a good history of the OI that has been fact checked past the memories (and the biases) of our members.
 * It's interesting to me that you attribute the motivations of the folks in the past discussion about the "Zen Master" term as jealousy or malice. Wanting verifiable facts isn't a bad thing, and omitting terms that can't be clarified isn't a problem, either. The bottom line is that this page is an encyclopedia article on Wikipedia and needs to play by their rules just like every other article. I do have a personal bias in favor of TNH and the Order, and while that generally is frowned upon, I have done all I can to be neutral and stick with the rules. I've had the article peer reviewed by two different Wiki Projects to double check my work, and do watch the article closely. Not only do I want the article to have a neutral point of view, I believe it's imperative for it to be scrupulously researched and verifiable with outside sources. The last thing I want to see happen is some mythology evolve around TNH and the Order - that's a recipie for Thay's wonderful teachings to become discounted because of claims that can't be proven.

Thank you for your comments, and I hope you understand my point of view - if not, please feel free to continue the discussion here, and if need be, we can ask for peer review from the Buddhist Project and/or Biography Project. Nightngle 15:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll leave you a note on your user page, too - there is going to be an OI wiki site that I can direct you to. Those pages can be edited to say whatever the OI members want them to say, so they will have a very different look and feel to them. You may be much happier editing those pages instead of Wikipedia.

Dear Cheryl,

Your contention seems to be that Thay was named a Dharmacharya in May 1966, just before he left Vietnam. One monk said to me, "Of course, Thay was already a teacher for many of the years that he was in VietNam.

Think about it. In May 1966, Thay was 40 years old and had been a student of Zen Master Chan That for 26 years. Do you really think that Chan That waited that long to name Thay as a simple Dharma teacher? Brother Wayne, for example, became a Dharma Teacher at the age of 25, after only 9 years as a monk.

It's strange that people don't argue about the fact that Thay is the Zen Patriarch of the Tu Hieu branch of the Lieu Quan lineage of the Rinzai Zen school in Vietnam.

It's strange that people don't argue about the fact that Thay was named by Zen Master Chan That as his successor.

It's only when someone raises the phrase "Zen Master", which Thay himself uses, that people get problems.

I think there is indeed a mythology building up in this order. That mythology, which so many seem to believe, is that of Thay as the outsider rebel monk who never was recognized by Buddhists in VietNam and spent his time fighting the establishment. Well, look at the facts: Thay was not a rebel outsider, he was if anything an insider. He was editor of the national Buddhist magazine, he was a founder of a Buddhist university, he was a founder of a Buddhist institute. He was a "golden boy" of Vietnamese Buddhism, and it was from that position that he put forward his disagreements with the conservative hierarchy. There is indeed a mythology that has been built up in our group, and the reluctance to recognize him as a Zen Master is for some people a part of that mythology.

As to my referring to jealousy and political anger, you came into the Wikipedia a bit late. In fall of 2005 in both the Zen article in the section about Thay and in the article about Thay specifically, there was very little content except for scurrilous and insulting material which had been left by someone. I asked Sister Annabel about this and she said that it was probably coming from some political group that was angry at Thay. Other monks have said that this and other comments about Thay have arisen from people who are jealous of him.

No, our Dharma Teachers certainly are not Zen Masters, and they are not Thay, either. One local Dharma Teacher told me that she is empowered only to transmit the Five Mindfulness Trainings, not the Fourteen Mindfulness Trainings, and certainly not the the monastic precepts.

As to verifiable sources, here is my correspondance from last spring:

This was my question:

The question of people saying that Thay has not received transmission has come up again. Rev. James Ford, a Zen master in the Sanbo Kyodan school is writing a book about the history of Zen in America. His research has led him to believe that Thay has never received Dharma transmission as a Zen master. There is a scholarly article that says this. (see his messages below) He won't believe otherwise unless we can give him a statement that Thay received Dharma transmission from (a specific name) on (a specific date)at (a specific place). This has to refer to Thay receiving Dharma transmission as a Zen master, not his ordination as a monk.

....

Please help. Bert Mayo    /    True Wisdom of Peace

And this is the answer from Sister Chan Khong:

Plum Village March 23rd 2006 Dear Friends,

Our teacher Master Trung Quang Nhat Hanh received the Dharma Transmission from his Teacher  Thanh Quy Chan That on May 1st, 1966  at the Tu Hieu Temple in Hue, Thua Thien Province, in Central  Vietnam. The gatha of Dharma Transmission given to him is in classical Chinese. All gathas of Dharma Transmission given by several generations of Teachers of the Tu Hieu Patriarchal Temple, all in  classical Chinese, are available on the website of Plum Village   HYPERLINK "http://www.langmai.org" www.langmai.org You need a  Vietnamese person to help click the right spot Cac bai ke phu phap  truyen dang cua To Dinh Tu Hieu qua nhieu the he  to see them in  their original Chinese form. We can download the document and send to those who are interested. No translation either in Vietnamese or in English is available yet. Thay said he will try to translate all these gathas first into Vietnamese and later into english, hopefully  in the near future. Keep well and smile !

Chan Khong

Those gathas and the history of the lineage going back for 8 generations has been published in English in the article by Thay Phap Dung that I mentioned in the previous letter.

Bert Mayo, Chân Tuê. An


 * Bert, the bottom line here is that anything added to this article must be verifiable. I have yet to see anything that defines the use of the term "Zen Master" in our tradition, nor have I seen any external source to verify that TNH has received any ordination over and above being ordained as a monk and his lamp transmission as a Dharmacharya. It really doesn't matter who gets their ordination to teach or at what age, so there really is no logic in your reference to the way TNH does things verses the way a traditional Vietnamese head of order would do things. At any rate, we can't add a statement to a sentence in the article that is referenced, since the addition is not found in the citation (basic research paper guidelines there), and until you can give me something to reference, I'm afraid that the info just can't go in this article. I'm trying to hold this article to the highest standards of Wikipedia - and while we can argue the point of fact, the discussion really isn't about if "Zen Master" is true or not, the discussion is about the verifiability of the statement. Thank you, Nightngle 20:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is best to leave things like this out. Just refer to him as a teacher. Otherwise, I believe you be violating the NPOV of wikipedia. Being a "zen master", "enlightened", ot even a "good christian" are unverifable opinions that we may have of other people. Best wishes, Pgc512 01:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)