Talk:Thai royal ranks and titles

Untitled
Do the titles Khun, Luang, Phra, Phraya, Chao Phraya, and Somdet Chao Phraya fit into this article as well? andy 12:53, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not sure. Perhaps a seperate page as e.g. Feudal titles? I'd certainly need to add more about the titles of the wives of the lesser royalties (namely, "mom")--Jakris 13:19, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is a very helpful article, although it needs some editing of its English, and there are far too many headings in bold. I will try to edit it when I have time. A question: How does the title Chao Phraya relate to the name of the river which runs through Bangkok? Adam 02:30, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. An interesting question -- unfortunately, I don't know the answer. As far as I know, the name was used at least since Ayutthaya period. It looks like it is the same word as the noble title, and I presume it might have come from that. It is only my presumption though.

When you do the editing, please be careful with the headers as they also act as reference points (probably need &lt;span&gt;ning) to the pretty extensive internal (as well as external) linking.

--Jakris 01:34, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How does the title Chao Phraya relate to the name of the river which runs through Bangkok?


 * Well, there is no relation between those two. It just happens to have the same name.

Well, I'm sorry but I don't believe that. I believe Chao Phraya means "Royal Prince" or something like that, so the river must either be named in honour of a particular royal prince, or named to convey the sense that it is the "royal prince of rivers" or something similar. Adam 02:17, 3 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Chao Phraya is a title generally given the highest-rank nobles (not to royal family) and certainly does not mean or imply to "Royal Prince". There is no historic evident regarding the origin of Chao Phraya river.

So what is the literal translation of the name Chao Phraya? Adam 06:21, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

There are a lot of incorrect information in Thai royal title pages. For example,


 * in Phra Ong Chao section, Children of a Chao Fa and a princess (Chao Fa, Phra Ong Chao, or Mom Chao Ying) will have a title of Phra Worawong Ther Phra Ong Chao, NOT Phra Chao Boromawong Ther Phra Ong Chao.


 * Sometimes, the king gives the title Phra Chao Worawong Ther Phra Ong Chao, instead of just Phra Worawong Ther


 * The queen and royal consorts are quite messy -- need a lot of edit.

Unfortunately, there is problem about Chao Fa too. Chao Fa of first rank, who called toon kramom, isn'nt the highest rank of Chao Fa. 1. The Highest is Chao Fa who elevated to be crown prince (HRH Crown Prince Maha Vajiralongkorn) 2. the second highest is Chao Fa who elevated specially (HRH Princess Maha Chakri Sirindhon). 3. Chao Fa who given feudal, or Song Krom, Depending on their rank. 3.1 Somdej Kromphraya + honorific name 3.2 Kromphaya + honorific name 3.3 Kromphra + honorific name 3.4 Kromluang + honorific name 3.5 Kromkhun + honorific name 3.6 Krommhun + honorific name 4. Chao Fa off first class who have no given feudal. 5. Chao Fa off second rank who have no given feudal. Pudtipong Nawasornyuttana 07:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Serene Highness
I have seen many press articles where the title is anglacised to serene highness princess X (where I assume they are not high enough to be a royal highness). Where would this fit in the scheme of things as no mention is made in the article?

HSH give to royalties in Mom Chao rank. HH for Mom Ratchawong.--Pudtipong Nawasornyuttana 02:35, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is not correct. A person holding "Mom Ratchawong" title is not royal at all (but rather only a child of a royal male "Mom Chao").

By contrast, the lowest royal rank is "Mom Chao" (HSH or His/Her Serene Highness Prince/Princess)

A higher royal rank is HH (His/Her Highness) Pra Ong Chao (a child of a Chao Fa and a Royal ranked wife)(OR a child of a HRH Pra Ong Chao and a Royal ranked wife)

An even higher rank is HRH (His/Her Royal Highness) Pra Ong Chao (a child of a monarch and non-royal wife).

An even higher rank is HRH (His/Her Royal Highness) Chao Fa or "Sky Lord" (a child of a monarch and a Royal ranked wife).

Finally, there is TRM, the King and Queen

(Of course, a reigning monarch has the power to elevate someone to a higher rank, even though that person was not born to the higher rank).

this website has a very good chart to explain  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.154.177.201 (talk) 10:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think this soravij site does explain it correct. According to this site the child of a Chao Fa and his Royal wife is a Pra Ong Chao with the style "His/Her Highness" (Phra Worawong Ther Phra Ong Chao). But that's rather strange and incorrect. For example, the children of the Crown prince (a Chao Fa) and his legal wives (all made a royal princess or Phra Ong Chao) are all Pra Ong Chao with the style "His/Her Royal Highness" (Phra 'Chao Worawongse Ther Phra Ong Chao). I still don't understand the use of the style "His/Her Highness" for Thai royals. Is this style also commonly used and in general for princes/princesses who are of Phra Ong Chao rank by birth (with the exception of the use for Children of a Somdej Chao Fa)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.211.40.7 (talk) 09:43, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

The many sons of the Crown Prince
I don't know much about this subject, but looking at http://www.soravij.com/rama9.html it seems that the current Crown Prince has four HSH/"Mom Chao" sons that are not mentioned in this article. His last son (Teepangkara Rasmichoti, b. 2005) is the child of the Royal Consort and is HRH.

Wardbeattie 22:19, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Thai styles other than royal or noble
Thai styles other than royal or noble moved for sorting out to my sandbox.--Pawyilee (talk) 13:10, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Prai
This is a touchy subject. For over a century, the term retreated from polite discourse into dictionaires, to emerge only to slight or to insult, until recently. Due to Internet censorship, it is difficult for editors in Thailand to run down its reemergence, but it was first applied in 2010 to Nai Thaksin's supporters by Nai Abihist, according to this thai-language.com forum. --Pawyilee (talk) 02:46, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As regards usage of phrai in polite society, it is a matter of politeness expressed in the practical application of good manners (which often becomes impractical in times of political ferment, for which Wiki'd search has 516 results but no one article.)

Chao Nai de-linked from Boss as the DAB page does a poor job of explaining what it means to be a boss or bossy. My 'puter recently crashed and lost me my cheatsheet for linking to Wiktionary, or I'd link 'boss' to http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boss#Etymology_3 as that closely parallels the Thai phrase. --Pawyilee (talk) 02:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Chao
Chao has nothing on Thai usage that closely parallels English usage of lord, but I'm at a loss for references or etymology. And there are alternate transliterations such as Čhao and Jao, and confusion with Chinese Zhao, which may also be translated Chao.

Simple Chao refers to a minor king or prince, such as Chao Anouvong, whose father was a higher ranking Phraya Chao'' before he fell under Siamese sway and had to give up his son as a hostage.

Pra Chao means Supreme Being; Pra Chao Yu Hua, His representative on earth; Chao Chiwit, lord of life; chao ban, the person listed first on a household register; chao khong, an everyday term for owner. --Pawyilee (talk) 02:24, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Wiktionary definition (เจ้า). --Pawyilee (talk) 08:27, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

For comparison with UK titling, see
--Pawyilee (talk) 13:37, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * UK: Peerage of Great Britain
 * UK: Commoners in Great Britain
 * UK: Honour (feudal land tenure)

Thanpuying / Khunying
According to this link (https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/ท่านผู้หญิง) & (https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/คุณหญิง) both pages show that:

Thanpuying / Khunying depend on Order of Chula Chom Klao (เครื่องราชอิสริยาภรณ์จุลจอมเกล้า) must receive the Member (จ.จ.),Companion(ต.จ.),Dame Commander(ท.จ.)of The Most Illustrious Order of Chula Chom Klao to be Khunying (คุณหญิง) and Dame Grand Commander(ท.จ.ว.),Dame Grand Cross(ป.จ.)to be Thanpuying (ท่านผู้หญิง) OnTJL (talk) 23:22, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Orphaned links
All links to Thai royal and noble titles as used in articles on Thai royal and nobles now redirect to the heading, leaving any poor fool who wants to know what's what to have to pick their way down this mess, with many not be found at all. I vote to return to version of page as last modified on 27 September 2013 at 11:16.--Pawyilee (talk) 13:49, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Template:Anchor should have been used when changing the section headers. --Paul_012 (talk) 09:12, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposed reversion
Changes introduced since 14:34, 16 September 2013‎, by unregistered user Bongsevm, broke all links to these terms as used in other articles, and yet fail to explain them. Bongsevm has made no attempts to improve this mish-mash of subsections to be expanded since 08:50, 29 September 2013‎, so absent a good reason not to, I will restore it to previous version. --Pawyilee (talk) 03:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Ten months' intervening revisions are a reason bot to simply revert, so I solicit help in trying to merge them in User:Pawyilee/Sandbox/Thai_royal_and_noble_titles. —Pawyilee (talk) 08:01, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

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