Talk:Thakar Singh

New Image, Jan 2008
Someone apparently did not like the scan of the public domain book as a suitable image, so I've added a wikipedia commons image to replace the link removed recently by the bot. Sevadar2 (talk) 12:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Successful
I am pleased this article is up and has only improved since it was written by me in 2006. The level of objectivity has improved and satisfied Wikipedia standards earning a B rating, but the crucial points are all still there. Thank-you to everyone who made a positive improvement. Sevadar Sep 21, 2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.129.205.202 (talk) 20:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

You know I am pleased with this article too. It really is quite informative and in my opinion, well-represented both of the truth and the intention of the author(s) to portray the message of the Master. I'm glad the positive changes were applied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.207.94 (talk) 06:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

New Image
I made a scan of one of Sant Thakar Singh's books to use for an image since I have not had luck yet getting one from his Mission. The book has no copyright and is in the public domain, so there should be no more licensing issues. If you have a better picture, which you own and would like to donate, that is great. Sevadar 19:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sant Mat Is Not Hinduism
Despite the WikiProject banner, Sant Mat has nothing in particular to do with Hinduism. Sant Thakar Singh was not even a Hindu, but rather a Sikh by birth. But his teachings were intended to go beyond the world religions (which he called "the dead religions") and bring people into Light through actual experience. However, it is OK for the love of the wikipedia participants to flow in. Sant Mat is a very inclusive concept.

Sevadar 03:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've discovered the WP Hinduism tag was most likely placed by a bot so I am removing the tag. STS was neither a Hindu nor did he teach Hinduism, although he was from India and also used references from Gita, etc. when he gave satsang. Sevadar Sevadar 00:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

A few words
I am troubled by certain things in this article. First, the entire "References" section was a mess till I cleaned it up somewhat by seperating citations that link to external websites and citations that use books and other sources. I am going to ask another editor here on Wikipedia for help on this problem.

Second, Sant Thakar Singh is often called "The Master" in the article. Exactly who gave him this title? I have no idea partly because I don't even know who he is. I arrived at this article looking into something else. It is perfectly fine to call George. H. W. Bush "President," because that is exactly what he is (his title), but where did "Sant Thakar Singh" get this title? I am afraid it may not be totally objective.

Third, there should be absolutely no use of first person in editing an article (e.g. "I"). There are several uses of first person in the "Notes" and "References" sections. That is a serious problem and not befitting an encyclopedia.

Overall, I am questioning the objectivity of this article. There's a lot of info in the article, but it should remain something for everyone, not the followers of a particular faith. Stiles 06:50, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Response: You will find Jesus referred to as "Master" (Rabbi) in the Bible and in that context the word was being used as a term of respect. When I went to prep school, all of the staff were called "Masters." The term is one of basic respect and was not intended to imply anything beyond a person who by his own admission is teaching something about God. In other faiths, I believe there are preachers, ministers, and priests. In Sant Mat there is only the Guru. Is Guru an acceptable terminology to you? What I suspect (sorry to put it bluntly) is an element of Western chauvinism. "Guru" often has a pejorative connotation in the West. Sant Thakar Singh was a Guru, but he was called by his disciples (perhaps two million of them) "the Master." In India there are lots of Saints and Masters. It is not a strange usage.

Regarding the use of "I" you can feel free to edit the article. "I" have no objections. ;-) You say absolutely objective, but, how exactly does one present things which are philosophically in denial of the idea of objectivity? To do justice to the topic you need to approach it correctly. Sant Thakar Singh would not have even considered Wikipedia a form of knowledge.

Sevadar 03:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Sedavar, if you really think that your Masters work can not be appropriately depicted within the Wikipedia framework then You should maybe consider moving your otherwise fine and very informative article to another site. An article that is presented on this platform should IMO first and foremost try to adhere to the wikipedia guidelines. The transcendental nature of Thakar Singhs world view is undisputed. But taking that as a pretext to justify the strong bias of the article is IMO inappropriate and unjustified.

I very much hope that you disagree and want to keep the article here. But then I think it is neccessary to reduce the amount of Sedavar and to increase the Thakar Singh portion in it. Your article tells a lot about Thakar Singh and at the same time it contains much information about a Satsangi who goes under the name of Sedavar. It can be seen that this person is very devoted to his master and that he is very eager to maintain an immaculate remembrance of his Guru. IMO this additional information is not only redundant - in fact it has potential to harm the reputation of the Wikipedia because one has to read between the lines to find it. Thakar Singh really walked on the surface of this planet. As a result of that there are plenty of undoubted FACTS that could and should be told to turn this perfumed shrine of devotion into what it claims to be: a Biography. I hope you agree.

Andreas Sumerauer 03:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Starting work
Just beginning work on this. Thanks for your patience. 20:52, 5 September 2005 (UTC) Sevadar

Teachings and Controversies Sections
I added 3600 words on the teachings of the Master and the controversies of the early years. Please note the references are not complete yet. Thanks for your patience. 03:00, 11 September 2005 (UTC) Sevadar

Attention Tag
Another editor added an attention tag here, but I am not sure how to address it. Please leave some instructions on this page. Thank-you kindly. 01:00, 17 September 2005 (UTC) Sevadar.

so-called "master"
He was just another initiate parading as a Master.

Tayv, I encourage you to substantiate your ideas with facts. I will ask that you be banned from the Wikipedia site if you can't contribute in a constructive way or work towards the common objective of a neutral point of view. Please sign your comments. Sevadar 19:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Controversies Section
Your description of the child meditation controversy does not mesh with the facts. Here is a verbatim transcription of a portion of the circular letter sent to initiates which relates to the blindfolding of children.

<<After the birth of the child, it is to have a soft, white cotton blindfold put gently over the eyes, so the infant will remain naturally inverted inside most of the 24 hours daily, up to the age of five years. The blindfold may be taken off when the mother is breastfeeding the child. She may look into the childn's eyes and he may look into hers. She should especially keep Simran at this time. This is the only eye contact that is allowed to or from the child (with exceptions of the visits from the father).>>

As you can see, the letter unambiguously states that children are to be blindfolded almost all the time.

wbartley

From the standpoint of Sant Mat, the world is an illusion and the only thing that actually is real exists inside of us. Perhaps it is fair of me to assume this is a radically different point of view from your own; but is what Sant Thakar Singh was teaching. He also taught that children are much closer to God and that as we age, that connection becomes more and more tenuous until we physically die--the supporting lifeline from within having been cut down to nothing. Everything comes from inside, not outside. What a child absorbs froum outside is death, in essense; and as we grow and age we absorb not life but death. This was the teaching.

It is worth pointing out this teaching is not for everyone, only those who have been initiated (given a direct inner connection) and thus have a tangible inner experience to enjoy inside instead of the horrors of the outer life. Your quotation, while correct, is from a private correspondence meant only for very serious practitioners (at that time not more than a thousand in the US) and so you are almost certainly taking it out of context by implying the teaching was to generally blindfold people. What I did in the article was to put the teaching in the proper context.

User:sevadar

Sevadar, you may need to research your facts better. Don't know who you are or what role you played back then if any at all, but Thakar did imply that it was best to keep the children (yes, the children of initiates only, but then again he also wished the whole world was initiated) blindfolded most of the time until the age of five. Not only is the man dead now but all this brought an investigation in India against him so it's been dealt with already and I don't think we should dwell on it any further.

Pilgrimsoul

Neutrality
This article requires some attention from a more non-biased viewpoint. The primary author is an obvious follower of these teaching(Which, in itself, is fine). However, that detracts from the neutrality of the article in that it is told from the viewpoint of a believer. A more objective view is needed to improve the article. Jaala84 17:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment, however I myself will not do that; you can work on it if you like. I think this article is a special case in the sense that Sant Thakar Singh did not accept "objectivity" even as a concept. In order to correctly understand his teachings, they have to be experienced. (I.e., they are entirely subjective in character). Perhaps you will agree this type of approach is difficult to explain in an encyclopedia article, but I did my best. I have heard from others familiar with the teachings and they agree it does a good job to shed some light on things. Also, the fact is people are working against the authentic viewpoint. This article is regularly and harshly vandalized. Under those conditions, objectivity is hard to maintain. This is not an excuse, but it is an explanation I hope you'll consider. Sevadar 19:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Childhood Meditation
I have replaced the paragraph that begins with: "The controversy over these instructions ..." with an actual description of what really was the practice back then. I surely considered leaving the original paragraph in place and to just add the example as an additional information. I decided otherwise for the following reasons: The newly introduced paragraph contains links to he source of the description (a report published by the German parlament). Both the german original and an english translation (which is cited in the new paragraph) are available.
 * 1) the phrase: "... which seems to be an exaggeration" indicates that the author of this lines has no real knowledge of the subject.
 * 2) much of the paragraph is a plain attempt to justify the practice. This IMO has no place in the Wikipedia. It might have been more appropriate to give a description of why people at the time did it and thought it was a good thing to do.

Andreas Sumerauer 19:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality-issue: Remove this article if not completely rewritten soon
This article is an unabashed praise of a religious icon by his followers. Please rewrite or delete.

I added the neutrality-disputed and rewrite tags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teegeedee (talk • contribs) 14:44, 12 January 2010 (UTC) Teegeedee (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC).

Criticisms and/or removal of article.
More required or removal revisited. How about adding the Controversies section that appears at www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Thakar-Singh? The rest of the article looks identical to the one listed here in Wikipedia. I think this would be a more balanced approach. My only previous familiarity with Thakar Singh stems from claims of fraud although I see no mention of that in the Wikipedia article.

Controversies Childhood Meditation In the mid-1980's Sant Thakar Singh issued a number of circular letters on family life and child rearing. These circulars are unfortunately quite hard to find as they were never formally collected into a book. They were not popular, nor were they followed to any great extent even by near devotees; and 20 years have passed. However, the substance of the circulars (which I read as they were issued) is not in dispute. The Master emphasized that: The formative years from birth to the age of four or five are the most critical in a child's development. The child retains godlike qualities but these are eroded away quickly by the harsh materialism of our contemporary lifestyle and by the age of five or six, the damage has been done. For best results, the child can be initiated at birth and connected to the Sound Current at that moment; in this way it will be connected to God and able to enjoy the blessings of that connection from the very start. The mother should live sequestered while the child is very young (as much as feasible) and should keep the child away from worldly influences and people. Even the influence of the father may not be desirable. The mother may assist the child to meditate by gently plugging its right ear (where the Sound Current is available) or by covering the eyes of the child with a soft cloth so it can enjoy the inner light of God. When the child's eyes are open, as when nursing, she may keep the mantra (simran) and gaze lovingly into the child's eyes. The controversy over these instructions is mainly due to the accusation of "blind-folding babies" which seems to be an exaggeration. The actual instructions related to meditation practices of infants and small children, which puts things in a different light, as they would need assistance of a parent to meditate in any case. "Subjecting young children to hours of meditation" is how one especially disturbed critic described these instructions.[44] However meditation on the Sound Current is described as being enjoyable for adults (or who would do it) and one can assume it is also enjoyable for children as well, even infants. Meditation is not sensory deprivation in Sant Mat; both visual and aural stimulus are provided by God as an inner experience. The Master specifically asserts that the child in the womb is enjoying the Sound, but then at birth this current of life is removed, much to the consternation of the child.[45] A related program was the appearance in the 1980's of meditation children (as they were called). These were boys and girls of nine or ten years of age given into the custody of the Master by their parents to lead a totally spiritual life of meditation in a monastic or cloistered setting. They were taught to read and write and given other basic education, but mainly spent their time in intensive mediation. While this sounds unusual in the West, it is a commonly described practice in the ancient scriptures and the Master spoke of it in those terms, using Rama (of the Ramayana) as an example of the child of a king who was raised in a monastic situation. There were circular letters about this program in the West, but those are not available now or have been lost. These events happened in India, and little information exists about them in the West other than some brief video footage purporting abuse which came from a German documentary attempting to sensationalize the children. [46] These individuals are now mainly grown into adults and are called the "meditation generation" (the Master's term). Many have achieved high spiritual planes, based on informal tally. Sant Baljit Singh is known to have a private room near the compound so he can meditate in their midst. These individuals can be seen sitting in the front area near the stage (the place of honor) on the Bhandara footage of Sant Baljit Singh's succession. Land Purchase In Oregon The second controversial action taken by the Master in the mid-1980's was to buy 330 acres of land in Southern Oregon, with the express purpose of setting up a school and communal living situation for full time meditators. In itself this was not controversial, but the Bhagwan Shee Rashneesh had created significant stir in Oregon by purchasing 64,000 acres of land in June, 1981. As the Oregon History Project describes: The Rashneeshees, as they were known, gained control of the Antelope City Council in 1984 and changed the name of Antelope to Rashneesh. In August of 1984, the sect began bussing homeless people from other U.S. cities to Rashneeshpuram, and registering them as Wasco County voters. After a series of bizarre incidents including an alleged attempt to poison residents of The Dalles, the Bhagwan and some of his followers fled to North Carolina. There he was arrested on charges of immigration fraud, and was brought back to Oregon for trial. He was convicted, fined $400,000, and deported from the United States. The faithful accompanied the Bhagwan back to Pune, India, the homeless drifted away, the ranch was sold to new owners, and life eventually returned to normal in Antelope, which got its old name back in 1986.[47] In the same time frame, and against a media backdrop of intense negative publicity about Indian Gurus, Sant Thakar Singh purchased a parcel of land situated against the backdrop of the Umpqua River and BLM forest land about 20 miles west of Sutherlin. This land exists today as a Sant Mat retreat center called Lighthouse Center Oregon. However, the Master's original intention of founding a school where children could be raised in a pure and wholesome environment, free of harmful influences, never came about. The surrounding community never acceded to the request to grant the necessary permits. So the land became a retreat and meditation center as well as an organic farm marketing produce under the name "Oregon Pure."[48] Work With The Mentally Ill The third controversy from the 1980's involved accusations of sexual and physical abuse. These stories circulated and had a negative impact on quite a few people. Even the Master's first American Representative, Bernadine Chard, left the mission abruptly in 1985. The reason was unknown, but it was assumed to have something to do with the accusations.[49] One particularly persistent critic, who has made something of a name for himself as an expert on Gurus, maintains a set of video recordings which purport to be interviews of abuse.[50] Sant Thakar Singh did not shy away from helping people who were mentally ill. This fact is easy to overlook as we like to gloss over the unfortunate condition of many people in this country. Perhaps five percent of the total population in the US will suffer from a mental illness over the course of their lifetimes.[51] Considering that our medical science does not always have answers on this subject, it is not surprising individuals suffering in this way would seek help outside the medical community. It was not an unusual occurance to see people, seemingly ordinary in appearance and demeanor, begin to manifest odd or unusual physical behaviours (jerking or gesticulating strangely, crying out uncontrollably like a beast, etc.) when in the presence of the Master. After he would leave, these symptoms would dissipate and the person would become "normal." These behaviours, referred to in the mission as "manifestations," (i.e., manifestations of entities or entity possession) created strange situations that might easily have been misunderstood both by observers or by the unfortunate sufferers themselves. It is also true that some individuals, seemingly "normal", develop symptoms like those described above at the time of initiation or some months or years thereafter. The Master does not deny this situation, and in fact the appropriate actions to deal with it during initiation is discussed in the manual for Initiating Representatives.[52] The Master explains the occurrence of illness as a result of karmic payments which must be made here and now, in order that the soul should enjoy forever and be free.[53] Not everyone is happy with this situation, however, or wants to take the medicine required to be free.[54],[55],[56],[57] Individuals are asked specifically at the time of initiation, as part of the requirements, if they are currently suffering a mental illness or taking drugs related to mental illness (even relatively mild anti-depressants such as Valium or Xanax). Such individuals are not allowed to take initiation. They are asked to return when they are well and drug free.[58] People who are mentally ill also sometimes take an interest in spirituality. However their stories of abuse must be looked at objectively and seen in the light of their illness. These people generate stories which then become fodder for others who are all too happy to distribute them as facts. [59] Sirvice626 (talk)

An encyclopedia article it is not
A rewrite notice was placed in January 2010. However, as of February 2016, this still is not an encyclopedia article but, rather, a presentation of Thakar Singh by followers.Oliver Puertogallera (talk) 03:50, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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