Talk:Thallium/Archive 1

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Article changed over to new WikiProject Elements format by maveric149. Elementbox converted 12:16, 10 July 2005 by Femto previous revision was that of 18:27, 2 July 2005

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There was an Australian murderer that the press nicknamed "Aunt Thally" for her use of Thallium to kill her victims

What about the hallucinations? The James Randi Educational Foundation mentions Scientist Sir Oliver Lodge (1851-1940) saw — in darkened rooms — glowing balls of fire that he believed were spirits. Co-incidentally, he also handled thallium, and in fact — erroneously — is credited with the discovery of that element. We now know that thallium is easily absorbed through the skin and produces hallucinations of colored balls of light for the victim....

Electrical properties
The article says that thallium sulfide's conductivity changes when it is exposed to infrared light. That indicates to me that it's a low-bandgap semiconductor. However, in the proper jargon, this would be a "III-VI" semiconductor. I've never heard of such a beast, though since thallium sits so low in the periodic table, it might have the right valency for that. Can anyone confirm or debunk this idea? More intriguing still is the mention of "thallium bromide-iodide crystals." I've never heard of any halogen compounds semiconducting, but that may just be a result of my ignorance. --Smack (talk) 04:40, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * III-VI semiconductors exists - GaSe is an example. I would not worry so much about the valency per se when considering semiconductor technology. The valence rules are simply a heuristic and do not reflect the complexity of bandgaps. Have you studied electrical engineering before? HappyCamper 12:14, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, the reference to "thallium-bromide-iodide" crystals is correct. Think of it this way: It's a thallium iodide compound. This is a crystalline compound, where the network of atoms exists in all directions. Some of the iodine atoms have simply been replaced with bromine atoms. As a result, the crystal structure is distorted. The band structure would definitely be affected, although I don't think this semiconducts though - it's usually used as an agent to make really refined optical lenses. --HappyCamper 12:22, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Exposure to skin
In the Precautions section:

Contact with skin is dangerous and adequate ventilation should be provided when melting this metal. Exposure to soluble compounds of thallium shouldn't exceed 0.1 mg per m³ of skin in an 8-hour time-weighted average (40-hour work week).

Is it really supposed to read "per m³", and not "m²"? That's a whole lotta dermis.

-Misha Vargas

216.254.12.114 21:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

This should definitely be square meters, cubic meters don't make any sense, dimensionally. Chevalier de la charrette 13:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have just changed it to /square/ metres.Its really not what you think it is.

OSHAs website actually lists it as per cubic meter,which usually indicates a limit for inhalation,but then lists "skin". https://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_271500.html

This does not mean that the PEL is for skin absorption. It IS in fact for inhalation. https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/surfacecontamination/ In fact,a sampling method is given for collecting it on a filter with a sampling pump. What the "skin" designation means is that it can be absorbed through the skin,and that skin contact can add to the inhalation exposure and and exceed safe exposure levels even if the amount inhaled is less than what is specified in the OSHA PEL (Permissible Exposure Limit)As always,when handling toxic substances,proper engineering controls and PPE should be employed. I will change it back to cubic meters.

Thallium as a prescribed drug
I simply wish to pose a question regarding THALLIUM.

Does anyone have any information about the use of this element, as a prescribed drug in the treatment of emotionally disturbed (depressed or hyper-anxious) patients. I have come across anecdotal evidence of it's use by INDIAN military medics, specializing in psychiatry.

Any information glady appreciated.

Robert Marshall


 * This question will get more exposure if it is asked at the proper place at the reference desk --Dschwen 09:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Claude-Auguste Lamy (1820-1878)
I have not been able to repair the redlink. Even the French Wikipedia site seems to have no article or information about this French scientist that discovered Thallium around the same time as Crookes. gives some details:
 * Almost simultaneously Claude-Auguste Lamy (1820-1878) examined some slime from a sulfuric acid plant at Loos which was using Belgian pyrite and observed the green spectral line. He extracted thallium sesquichloride and isolated the metal new by electrolysis. Only after his discovery, he found out that Crookes had earlier discovered and named the new element, and gave Crookes the honour. Crookes presumed that his Thallium was something of the order of Sulphur, Selenium or Tellurium but Lamy found it to be a metal. In April 1862 he reported to the French Académie des sciences....

DFH 18:48, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Half Life of Thallium-201?
What is the half life of Thallium-201? I see that this radioisotope has several mentions in Wikipedia e.g. on Radioisotopes but I have not been been able to locate its half-life. I would have expected to find it on this page as it seems like a popular/common isotope. - User:Murfas 17:35, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's about 3'n'half days, see http://www.webelements.com for instance. (i.e. a pretty short half life, just about long enough to get some made and it shipped to a hospital and used on a patient for myocardial imaging before the stuff all decays away to mercury).--feline1 17:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * See isotopes of thallium and its talk page for references. Femto 17:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Broken Reference
The link for Reference 6 (gaijinpot) doesn't appear to work. Need to find or remove the reference. Motoma 02:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Slashdot effect, apparently. I get a "high traffic, temporarily unavailable" message on that site. Let's wait. Femto 13:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Ref style
References are not in a uniform style (I bet there is a template for this). Looks like footnote style is winning out though. I will try to change them as I have time (unless someone objects). Sewebster 02:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Alexander Litvinenko
I added the after the sentence recently added saying that Thallium was not used to poison Litvinenko. If this is true, then possibly he shouldn't even be mentioned here... Sewebster 06:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The paragraph on Litvinenko has been removed and readded/rewritten a few times. If it is decided that it should stay, then perhaps an earlier version with references should be ressurected.  Or at least a/some reference(s) should be added to the current blurb. Sewebster 20:01, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Radio-Thallium sources?
The article states that natural Thallium consists of two isotopes, both of which are stable. Given the current interest in the Alexander Litvinenko poisoning, and the suggestion that radioactive Thallium may have been used, it would be very interesting to have information on possible sources of radio-isotopes of Thallium. (For example, if it only comes from the nuclear fuel cycle, that would be interesting.) — Johan the Ghost seance 13:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thallium-201 is used in medical imaging, so I imagine hospitals order it from pharmaceutical/medical supply companies' catalogues! (eg MDS Nordian).--feline1 17:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That's interesting, thanks; but if it's half-life is so short (see below), where do the pharmaceutical/medical supply companies get it from? — Johan the Ghost seance 22:10, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know the answer off the top of my head - but in principle, to find out, you need to know what radioactive decay series it is that produces the thallium-201... somewhere further up the chain, there'll be a parent nuclide with a pretty long half-life, which will either be mined out of the groud, or produced in a reactor. If the latter, it could be a useful by-product of something used for energy generation which they extract (eg from a nuclear power station), or it could be something which they deliberately synthesize by firing neutrons or other nuceli at something else (eg more likely from a physics lab facility somewhere). Whichever the case, you need to wait till the chain reaches thallium, then chemically extract the thallium and ship it off pretty sharpish to the hospital till it decays. One would imagine there are not many facilities in the world which produce this isotope, so it poses interesting opportunities re: 'tracing the murder weapon' in the current media story.--feline1 11:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at -- I tried figuring out if it came from uranium fission by any obvious route, but my physics isn't up to that. Also, re. the medical supply side, I'm sure it's widely used as you say, but even so, wouldn't this use still be subject to some kind of nuclear regulation / oversight?  Cheers! — Johan the Ghost seance 13:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * All short-living radionuclides used in medicine (either diagnostically or therapeutically) are produced and delivered in a similar fashion: the departement of nuclear medicine of a hospital fills a request for a specified amout of a short living radionuclide, the hospital administration passes it to nearest nuclear research center with cyclotrone, there the requested amout of a radionuclide is prepared, transferred to an appropriate compound (e.g. 201TlCl) and is expressly delivered via transport vehicle with necessary equipement. This process takes usualy less than a day; no short living nuclides are stockpiled, nor their decay parent nuclides, most of those used medicaly are prepared by neutron bombardement in a cyclotrone, very few are prepared in a nuclear reactor nowadays.--84.163.105.225 11:23, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Moscow poisoning
Um, shouldn't this be taken off until there's some evidence that they were actually poisoned? It seems to me that there's no concrete evidence, and no motive, so why say it was a deliberate poisoning? 24.10.29.88 02:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thallium-206??!
The section on Thallium in Alexander Litvinenko poisoning talks about a radioactive isotope: thallium-206 - but this article doesn't mention this isotope. Eh?? SteveBaker 15:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thallium description?
Just wanted to point out that someone turned the section on thallium's properties into an insane rant on murdered country singers and Santa Claus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.242.211.102 (talk) 15:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have reverted the vandalism. Feel free to do it yourself next time, if you like. --Ed (Edgar181) 16:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Poisoning cases
I have removed the following poisoning cases from the list because they are unsourced. They can be added back into the article if/when verified by a reliable external source: --Ed (Edgar181) 19:39, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Félix-Roland Moumié, a leader of the Cameroonian anticolonial armed struggle against France was murdered by thallium poisoning on October 15, 1960. A French agent posing as a journalist was the main suspect of this murder.
 * In the 1960s and 1970s, Graham Frederick Young killed at least three people with thallium. The 1995 film The Young Poisoner's Handbook is based upon him.
 * In October 1988, Peggy Carr of Alturas, Florida began to suffer from a mysterious illness. She was admitted to the hospital and remained there for several days before being discharged.  After discharge, Peggy’s condition worsened, and she was readmitted to the hospital.  Travis Carr and Duane Dubberly also exhibited similar symptoms and were transported to the hospital. Thallium poisoning was suspected based on the symptoms displayed.  Within one day, thallium poisoning was confirmed.  Peggy Carr’s condition worsened, and she fell into a coma.  She died when life support was disconnected in March of 1989.  Travis Carr and Duane Dubberly remained in the hospital for treatment of thallium poisoning.  Further testing revealed the presence of thallium in other family members, including Gelena Shiver, Kasey Bell and Parealyn Carr. George Trepal of Alturas, Florida was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of Peggy Carr on March 6, 1991. He is still on death row in Florida.
 * In 1991, Robert Curley was poisoned with thallium. His wife, Joann Curley, murdered him for insurance money.
 * In 1995, Zhu Ling, a student at Tsinghua University in Beijing, China, was reportedly poisoned twice by her roommate, over a period of a few months. The classmates of the victim asked for help through Usenet, to which access was very new in mainland China at the time. Joint efforts by physicians who responded through the web led to the diagnosis of thallium poisoning. The case was covered by news reports around the world. However, efforts came too late to prevent major damage: she now cannot speak, remains largely paralyzed and blind and with severely reduced mental function.

As we have an article on Thallium toxicity, I think the famous poisoning cases probably belong there rather than here. I will move them over unless someone has a reason why not. Regards. Thehalfone (talk) 09:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Poison
Is Thanllium a heavy metal poison? That is, dois it bioaccumulate like Lead and Mercury?

The article states Prussian Blue is used as an antidote, isn't that a cynide compound? So why is it not toxic itself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.203.58.1 (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Cyanides are poisons because they bind tightly to iron atoms in biomoleculs, in particular to hemoglobin in the bloodstream, preventing transport of oxygen. The cyanide ions of Prussian Blue are already bound tightly to iron atoms, and do not bind hemoglobin in any appreciable amounts.  This is also why certain cyanide salts, for example potassium ferrocyanide are essentially nontoxic. Norm Reitzel (talk) 10:05, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

In fiction
Moved from main article. Materialscientist (talk) 22:17, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In Nigel Williams's 1990 novel The Wimbledon Poisoner, Henry Far uses thallium to baste a roast chicken in a failed attempt to murder his wife.


 * Thallium figures prominently in the 1995 film The Young Poisoner's Handbook, a dark comedy loosely based on the life of Graham Frederick Young.


 * "Concentrated thallium" is used as the poison of choice of the Wyoming Widow in the 2006 dark comedy Big Nothing.


 * In an episode of the TV show House, a doctor poisons a patient with Thallium to make it appear that she had polio.


 * In Larry Niven's Known Space cycle of science fiction stories, Thallium is a soil component essential for the proper growth of Tree of life which, when ingested by hominid species, triggers the change from the Breeder lifestage to the Protector lifestage.


 * in the TV series "The Shield" thallium is used by a man to try to kill his brother and collect an inheritance, the m,an does not die but comes quite close.
 * In the "Page Turner" episode of CSI: NY, Thallium 201 is used to poison several persons.


 * It was also the poison that killed a lieutenant in "Dead Man Walking" an episode of NCIS (TV series).

GA Review again
This article seems to be written in poor shape. Very few physical properties are given. Does it have allotropes, different phases, is it ductile, etc? The history section and chemical compound sections are fine, but the chemical properties section is in poor shape. Does this react with nonmetals, acids, sulfur, other metals, etc? The occurrence section is fine, but the preparation section is in poor shape. How is this obtained from the sludge after copper, zinc, and lead ore processing? The uses section as well as the toxicity section is in fine shape. So far in my simplification for Simple English Wikipedia, this is the worst quality chemical element article I have run into. --Chemicalinterest (talk) 00:05, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Does it have allotropes, different phases, is it ductile, etc?
 * no allotropes and ductile is in


 * chemical properties section is in poor shape. Does this react with nonmetals, acids, sulfur, other metals, etc?
 * yes


 * preparation section is in poor shape. How is this obtained from the sludge after copper, zinc, and lead ore processing?
 * has been improved

--Stone (talk) 20:41, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It is much better now. :) What about reaction with halogens? I'll add a note about standard reduction potentials. --Chemicalinterest (talk) 21:24, 14 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The halogen compounds are in and my text book does not say how it reacts with chlorine, but the similarity to silver and potassium makes me think it will react. this nature article claims two different forms hexagonal closes packing for low temp to 230°C and than cubic close packing. I will add this later. --Stone (talk) 21:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

In the uses section, I think it could be worth adding that it's frequently used in Gold Plating. A Google search on thallium "gold plating" produces a considerable number of hits. --Phil Holmes (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Added the fact with credible source.--Stone (talk) 19:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

This snippet was on the Indium page for no sensible reason:

This happens due to inert pair effect, which occurs because of stabilization of 5s-orbital due to relativistic effects, which are stronger closer to the bottom of the periodic table. Thallium shows an even stronger effect, making oxidation to thallium(I) more likely than to thallium(III), making +1 the more likely oxidation state.

Reference 36 was junk science from a well known fraudulent website. I replaced it with this

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1994PhyC..234...24J

however,I was not able to update the actual footnote for some reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.240.140 (talk) 15:05, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

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Comma, please
In the Optics section, it would be nice if someone with actual knowledge could clarify the following by adding a comma: "Combined with sulfur or selenium and arsenic, thallium has been used in the production of high-density glasses..." Is it "sulfur or selenium, with arsenic" (sulfur + arsenic or selenium + arsenic), or should it be "sulfur, or selenium with arsenic" (sulfur or selenium + arsenic)? Last1in (talk) 15:08, 30 March 2020 (UTC)