Talk:Tham Luang cave rescue/Archive 1

Article title
The "2018" isn't totally redundant, since there was a previous search effort in 2016 when a man thought to be a tourist went disappearing. (He later turned out not to be a tourist, and re-appeared of his own accord three months later.) That event's probably not notable enough to warrant an article, though, so dropping the year here should also be fine. --Paul_012 (talk) 14:23, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:23, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

New images possible copyvios
Please check the sources for the first few youtube uploads here. I can't get youtube here but suspect copyvios. Many thanks. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:59, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Anna Frodesiak, the images are clearly tagged as YouTube Creative Commons, following the licence specified by the news channel on YouTube. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Paul_012. Understood. Thank you. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:21, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Geology map
I appreciate the need to show supporting images, especially as any photos of the individuals involved will be very hard to come by, but I'm not sure that the File:Chiang Rai Geological map.pdf will really help the reader understand anything about this event. For one thing it's mostly written in the Thai language, and for another it doesn't seem to show where the caves are? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:22, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you are right. I found another one with English and some German on the same website at . It will take some time before I ad some indicator pinpointing the area of the caves. But if you want to do it, please go ahead.--Gciriani (talk) 15:04, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Your efforts are appreciated, nonetheless. I will defer to your skill in this area. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:09, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Gciriani, I'm afraid the image isn't suitable for Wikipedia. The Thai government retains copyright over works created under its employment. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:07, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I'll have to nominate the images for deletion. Please continue the discussion regarding copyright status on Commons. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:39, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Length of underwater swim?
Seems a possible rescue option might be an "underwater swim" (using "scuba gear"), albeit challenging due to "cave conditions", for each of those to be rescued - is there any "reliable source" noting the length of the swim? (I've not found one at the moment) - if a source is found, might be a worthy addition to the "Tham Luang cave rescue" article I would think - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 16:10, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Would almost certainly depend on how much water is in the system and thus will vary dependent on recent rainfall. Perhaps a cave survey, with predicted water levels, will eventually emerge. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:14, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems such maps may have emerged - including a related schematic drawing - that seems to show cave areas flooded during the rainy season - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reply - found a possible answer to my question (ie, about a "2.5 km" swim underwater?) - added the following to the article => According to Ben Reymenants, owner and founder of Blue Label Diving of Thailand, and part of the international rescue effort: "[There are three rescue options] One is to teach them to scuba dive. It is at least a 2.5 km swim through narrow restrictions of a complex cave system. This is not the easiest solution. They are also trying to pump the cave empty with giant pumps which was working to some extent. But they are expecting heavy rains in the next two days. The last option is sitting it out and waiting. Two medical officers in the Thai navy have volunteered to have themselves locked in with enough food and supplies to sit there for three or four months until the water drops again." - hope the edit is ok - *entirely* ok with me to rv/rm/mv/ce the edit of course - in any regards - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 17:34, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Worthy quote to include - or not?
FWIW - seems the following quote re cave diving in the Tham Luang cave complex may be worthy to include in the "Tham Luang cave rescue" article - seems one editor may not agree - and has "reverted the edit" - Comments Welcome from other editors - in any case - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 22:11, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

 Copied from the "Tham Luang cave rescue (17:00, 3 July 2018 version)" article: Further, Reymenant stated: "This is one of the more extreme cave dives that I have done. It is very far, and very complex. There is current. The visibility can be zero at times. So getting boys through there one by one, and the risk that they will panic is there. They can’t even swim. This has been done before with pulling people out of wrecks alive. So it is not impossible, but the issue is the restrictions - just one person can fit through. So guiding a boy through in front of you could be quite challenging, especially if the rain picks up and there’s a strong flow and the visibility reduces to zero. When it starts raining the flow is so hard you can barely swim against it. It took us four hours just to swim to the point where we had to tie off the lines. It is [a] really long swim. So it is really hard to give an opinion on what is the best solution. I think the weather is going to be the deciding factor."


 * The analysis can of course be paraphrased and included in the article (optimally with comparisons to other opinions). It's just that tgere's no reason here for it to be quoted verbatim. --Paul_012 (talk) 22:26, 3 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Looks good and informative to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:28, 3 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it is worthy of inclusion. It could be modified in the future but as for now I would just include it. I think the first step is just to include it and then see how it looks in the days ahead. We can always revisit this question. Bus stop (talk) 22:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I was the one who removed it. I agree with Paul_012 that the relevant info can be added to the article but using a quote is unnecessary. Additionally, the paragraph above it is also part of this quote; two paragraphs of a quote from one rescuer is not needed. I would argue WP:UNDUE and WP:NOTNEWS †Basilosauridae  ❯❯❯Talk  23:21, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Additionally, if the consensus is to keep the whole quote, the formatting needs to be fixed. Either the quote from the paragraph above needs to be included in this formatting or there needs to be no special formatting, as it doesn’t really make sense to present two parts of one statement with different formatting. †Basilosauridae  ❯❯❯Talk  23:52, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion: You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. Community Tech bot (talk) 02:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Water pumping near Tham Luang cave.jpg

Conflicting statements in the article
--Miwako Sato (talk) 04:16, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The Intro section says the rock where the team was located is about 4 km away from the cave mouth (citing Reuters).
 * The Contact section says the rock is about 2 km away from the cave mouth (citing Guardian).


 * Based on the map provided by the Thai press, it seems like Reuters is more reliable (?) --Miwako Sato (talk) 04:20, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * There is a very detailed map in the Thai Wikipedia article on the rescue. Abductive  (reasoning) 06:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

One solution of copyright violation problem
One solution exist for copyright violation exists... if any officials / organisations themselves publish an image in Wikipedia. I have seen in some historic documents in Wikipedia which have different sort of copyrights/permissions; and submitted by national agencies or Government organisations (and not by individual user). 2405:204:421B:1C2B:C403:4DED:9ADB:3F3F (talk) 09:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

2 Questions- 1. Faecal matter 2. Aeration

 * 1) If there has been 13 people for 10 or more days in such a congested place; there must be a buildup of stools, urine and the gasses (including foetid and/or toxic gases) accumulated in the air pocket. There might be lot of germs in the cave floor, air and water. How these problems are being tackled?
 * 2) How aeration is being managed? provided 13 people breathing in such a congested place for so many days? Even metro/ tube rail stations need a continuous blow of air at a high pressure; how in such a congested place the aeration is being tackled ?

-- 08:03, 5 July 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:421B:1C2B:C403:4DED:9ADB:3F3F (talk)

If necessary information about these 2 issues found; kindly add them to wikipedia article. 2405:204:421B:1C2B:C403:4DED:9ADB:3F3F (talk) 09:51, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * On the air in caves, an informative article is here. That should give enough context to find reliable sources on the same topics. On stools and urine, there will be less than expected due to reduced eating and drinking in the first nine days. It will increasingly become a problem, but there are ways to deal with this, and ways for the rescue divers to package up and remove waste if needed. The real problem is how to get them out safely. As long as the waters don't rise, there will be little problem keeping them supplied and healthy. Carcharoth (talk) 11:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I understand, taking the kids out is the first and foremost issue. However journalists are saying the boys may have to stay there for an indefinite period of time for diving training, which may require more than month. 2405:204:421B:1C2B:783F:AAFE:EBF0:489F (talk) 11:30, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Also the place seems to be disconnected from external atmosphere due to water logging. It reminds me all the time about an U-tube of a manometer. 2405:204:421B:1C2B:783F:AAFE:EBF0:489F (talk) 11:35, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Death???? Which portion at cave?
Mine gosh I was so hopeful initially by knowing there's everyone safe and sound. I was taking this international effort quite a bit positively.

But saw saw on todays news and also on Wikipedia that one rescuer has been passed away!!!

From encyclopedic approach, it needs a map and a hill-sectional view  about where this tragedy happened?

Prayers.

2405:204:4421:E901:0:0:1854:38A0 (talk) 08:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * We do have an External link to the cave survey published by the BBC. So until a dedicated survey is created for this article, I guess all we can do is mention the location, if this is reported. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:21, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

A new news saying; for a certain day or time-period a pump was accidentally driven in reverse direction !
The news webpage https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/984556/Thai-cave-rescue-Thailand-football-team-latest-update-rescue-options-video tells a new information. "To make things worse, water has been accidentally pumped into the cave instead of being sucked out by volunteer rescuers, making a day worth of work almost pointless." What was that? 2405:204:4421:E901:3DAA:A434:8E37:C287 (talk) 10:38, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I think this is already mentioned, at the end of the "Extraction operations" section? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:58, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The Daily Express is non-WP:RS. Firebrace (talk) 16:50, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Refs in lead section
Why are there 13 different refs in the lead section? Shouldn't these all be given later, if needed? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:05, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
 * . WWGB (talk) 05:48, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Foreign languages
Re, per MOS:FORLANG, we "do not include foreign equivalents in the lead sentence just to show etymology". Firebrace (talk) 19:05, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * . . WWGB (talk) 05:30, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2018
misspelled word: please change helpped to helped 97.79.222.107 (talk) 16:05, 8 July 2018 (UTC)


 * ✅. Thanks for pointing it out. Have a nice day, Manifestation (talk) 16:22, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2018 : external Maps
FROM :

TO :

69.181.23.220 (talk) 07:38, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * ✅. I've put the two maps inside one box. Thanks, Manifestation (talk) 07:51, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2018 - Heyphone VLF radios
FROM: After four days, the Thai Navy Seals were joined by a group of 30 personnel of the United States Pacific Command and British cave diving rescue experts Richard Stanton, John Volanthen, and Robert Harper. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ TO: After four days, the Thai Navy Seals were joined by a group of 30 personnel of the United States Pacific Command and British cave diving rescue experts Richard Stanton MBE, John Volanthen, and Robert Harper, with Heyphone VLF radios, borrowed from the Derbyshire Cave Rescue Organisation. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 * Yes check.svg Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:11, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 July 2018 - to include that, after football practice all but two boys bicycled to the cave for a picnic.
FROM: On 23 June 2018, a group of 12 boys aged between 11 and 17 from a local junior football team named the Wild Boars (หมูป่า; ; ) and their 25-year-old coach, Ekapol Chantawong (เอกพล จันทะวงษ์; ), went missing after setting out to explore the cave. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ TO: On 23 June 2018, 12 boys, from a group of 14, aged between 11 and 17, from a local junior football team named the Wild Boars (หมูป่า; ; ) and their 25-year-old coach, Ekapol Chantawong (เอกพล จันทะวงษ์; ), went missing after bicycling out to the cave, to explore and have a picnic. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 * Yes check.svg Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:13, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

death of rescue worker
Article says he "ran out of air" (picture him not bringing enough air tanks to get himself out underwater) but I remember reading a different description of the incident. The non-flooded areas of the cave were believed to have breathable air, but some regions had higher CO2 levels than expected, so the guy passed out while breathing normally and possibly not realizing what was going on. I think this is worth chasing down and clarifying. Hopefully now that they know the issue, they can use monitoring and other measures to prevent more occurrences. My source is a web forum but there must be RS for something like that. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 06:30, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, interesting, pursue it JuanTamad (talk) 13:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The Chicago Tribune source says it's "currently unavailable in Europe", but the USA Today source, which I can see, seems to corroborate that interpretation. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:27, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Transliteration
In the 'Disappearance' section the name of the 25-year-old coach is transliterated as both 'Ekkaphon Chanthawong' and as 'Ekapol "Ake" Chantawong'. The 'Ake' nickname aside, which transliteration of his name should be used consistently throughout the article? JezGrove (talk) 20:10, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ added => "Ekapol" - spelling seems better supported in the latest BBC News, 8 July 2018 ref => https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44757804 - hope this helps - iac - Enjoy! :) Drbogdan (talk) 20:33, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Drbogdan. Best, JezGrove (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ekkaphon Chanthawong is เอกพล จันทะวงษ์ in the Royal Thai General System of Transcription. I believe we should use the Royal Thai General System of Transcription, but others will disagree. There has been a similar dispute with regard to สมาน กุนัน. Khiikiat (talk) 21:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)."
 * I've no preference about which transliteration is used, but whichever one it is needs to be used consistently throughout the whole article to avoid confusion. JezGrove (talk) 21:25, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Nine days without food?
So they were discovered after nine days. In the article I am missing any report on which and how much food they had in that period. - DePiep (talk) 13:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * IKR How they get those food?   (tagging any experienced editor)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 49.148.234.156 (talk) 23:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I have yet to find a source that says they had any food for those nine days. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:15, 8 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I read in a reliable source that the coach let the kids eat all his food and he ate none. Vanrich (talk) 23:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Does this source have a name? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:42, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Washington Post: According to rescue officials, is among the weakest in the group, in part because he gave the boys his share of the limited food and water they had with them in the early days. WWGB (talk) 01:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a bit better. Do these rescue officials have names? Or titles? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay not only the sources that was given above, they've literally Celebrate their Birthday at the cave. which makes them survived from hunger. probably has a loads of food on the table. Oppa Justine!   Talk  9 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi edit Request about coach and his friends trapped in cave
The Team got trapped in a cave because they've literally Celebrate a Birthday Party at the darkness and what interesting is they survived the hunger because they had loads of foods in the table.  Oppa Justine!  Talk  9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sam Sailor 10:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I live in Chiang Mai
just south about an hour. I guess everyone is asleep so the news about the fifth one hasn't made it onto the page yet. I can add it if I have clearance to edit. JuanTamad (talk) 10:41, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Regardless of where you live and who's asleep, you'd need a WP:RS source before you can add anything to the article. It would be advisable if you pasted it here first. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:52, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Has now been added with a CNN source. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:20, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Maxtech Networks supplied mesh network communications devices, built in the UK by Entel
69.181.23.220 (talk) 09:51, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Asaf Zmirly
 * Uzi Hanuni
 * Yuval Zalmanov
 * http://nocamels.com/2018/07/israeli-rescuers-missing-soccer/
 * http://www.wired.co.uk/article/thai-cave-rescue-boys-news-tech
 * https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-technology-providing-vital-communications-link-to-cave-trapped-thai-boys/
 * http://www.thaiembassy.org/telaviv/en/news/607/91212-The-Royal-Thai-Embassy,-Tel-Aviv,-wishes-to-join-t.html
 * https://web.archive.org/web/20180709093809/https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cGAJwei8hHwJ:embassies.gov.il/bangkok-en/NewsAndEvents/Pages/ISRAELI-EXPERT-TAKES-PART-IN-FOOTBALL-TEAM-RESCUE-OPERATION0704-7750.aspx


 * We wouldn't want to indulge in any "product placement" in this situation, would we. Are those names notable in some way? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * No because it was not a request for change, just interesting, related info, found while searching about this event, that might turn out to be useful to mention in the article, at some later point, so the relevant search data was added to the talk page. The names form the network from Tham_Luang_cave_rescue to max-mesh.com. 69.181.23.220 (talk) 11:21, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * usage of mesh network communications devices for base camp and in the long cave should be mentioned, even without "product placement". 69.181.23.220 (talk) 11:27, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The identity of those individuals is not immediately clear, nor why they would be mentioned in the article. If "mesh network communications devices" are already mentioned as notable, by RS source(s), I'd have no objection to adding a brief mention. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:04, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Why were they trapped inside? The boys, and their coach went into the cave to celebrate a birthday.
69.181.23.220 (talk) 07:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Maybe connected with this? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Maybe 69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:05, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * About 94 results for search : Thailand boys birthday coach cave 69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:37, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * 69.181.23.220 (talk) 08:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I think this should be added as it explains why the party entered the cave in the first place. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:58, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * is this true?, why would anyone celebrate their birthday at the darkness? the birthday foods saved them from hunger probably. lol Oppa Justine!   Talk  9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I see no reason why it should not be true. But it has not been widely reported (or, the case of Daily Mail, misreported). Significant if the snacks actually saved their lives. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * in this case, we should add this on article because the sources is there that they were trapped because they've literally Celebrate a Birthday Party. Oppa Justine!   Talk  9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The BBC source here, which already appears in the lead section, clearly says it was his 17th birthday. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:43, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Hole in ceiling
In the closest chamber to the trapped boys, it would make sense to drill a hole in the ceiling and pull them out the same way they did in the Chile mining incident. Has there been any mention of this on the news? IQ125 (talk) 17:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Mines are very different to caves. Often to widen a solid rock fissure in a cave sufficiently is both difficult and hazardous. But I agree we'd need an RS source. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:10, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The rock is near a kilometer thick, of unsurveyed quality (being karstic in nature) and exact alignment would be difficult. Nor can it possibly be done in a matter of a week or a few days.Mzmadmike (talk) 18:13, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I also had same question, but after some internet search I have found there is about 1 kilometer high hard rock upon the cave, and the cave passage is very narrow in places to places, less to pass with a full scuba suit. So I am just speculating perhaps the army is not trying this option since common sense tells there are many type of risks, including chances of increased water influx. But I also read in some news that army is trying to dig out an alternate suitable escape route. 2405:204:4398:F86:0:0:15C1:B8AD (talk) 16:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

In this article, part way down, a drilling expert is quoted talking about this subject. Murdomck (talk) 12:35, 7 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I think "about 1 kilometer high hard rock upon the cave" would be a useful addition, if a suitable source could be found. Essentially there never will be any chance of "a hole in the ceiling". Martinevans123 (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Except that may not be so clear cut, according to this report in the Finnish press, which says that the boys have heard the sound of dogs barking. This in itself seems to be notable and could be added. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

What the article needs a 2D-map of the whole cave complex. Anyone here have the expertize to make one? IQ125 (talk) 16:57, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

One mention is in the BBC Graphics https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/F8DC/production/_102380736_thai_cave_rescue_v3_inf640-nc.png Published in BBC page https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44695232, The same BBC page contains several good diagrams. 2405:204:421B:1C2B:783F:AAFE:EBF0:489F (talk) 11:17, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes it says: "There have also been suggestions that drilling could be another way to get to the boys and airlift them out." And goes on to explain how difficult that is. But I was just proposing a mention of what the boys say they have heard, suggesting that ether was already some connection with the surface from where they are. After even hours of sensory deprivation when in a deep cave, however, it is very easy for someone to imagine sounds that are in fact just the sound of flowing water. Anyone who has been caving will recognize this. The effects after 11 days must be very much more pronounced. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC)


 * This Gizmodo news-article https://gizmodo.com/a-daring-plan-to-rescue-boys-trapped-in-thai-cave-is-st-1827345522 says :


 * "Using mining equipment to dig a passageway to the boys is not being considered, given they’re located about 3,000 feet (1,000 meters) below the top of the mountain. That said, teams are currently scouring the mountain looking for alternative ways into the cave."
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2405:204:421B:1C2B:783F:AAFE:EBF0:489F (talk) 11:45, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Recentism?
I'm not sure why the rescued group are being named in the article along with acknowledgements that these names are disputed. Shouldn't we wait for a definitive list from reliable sources as per WP:NotNews? JezGrove (talk) 22:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Recentism has nothing to do with their names. Their names are not recent. The names should be removed only to comply with WP:TooMuchFuckingDetail. Vanrich (talk) 23:58, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Hardly applicable. Bus stop (talk) 00:28, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You literally just created that page almost immediately after linking it here. Was that really necessary? Too much detail already exists. – numbermaniac  05:20, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree. There have been a few recentism related issues with this article over the last few weeks. I understand that editors are eager to update the article, but we should be a bit more discerning about what is added. For newer editors, I would encourage you to review relevant wikipedia policies and guidelines, such as WP:NOTNEWS. †Basilosauridae  ❯❯❯Talk  22:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I completely agree that according to recentism, this article should be deleted and recreated in 2019. However, that is not the Wikipedia way. The names are not that many, not like 25 or 100, and they are cited in multiple sources. There is even more cited, such as the one Burmese boy who spoke English to the first English rescuer and confirmed the number of children. He is the only fluent English speaker. Vanrich (talk) 23:56, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I see you are a relatively new wikipedian, welcome. I’d recommend that you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia’s policies on reliable sources, because a distinction is made between a source and a reliable source for Wikipedia. Wikipedia follows certain procedures that tends to favor accuracy over expediency. †Basilosauridae ❯❯❯Talk  01:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Have you ever needed a significant amount of time to learn someone's name? Is there a reason journalists might in this case? What further developments might affect something decided by parents and officials 11-25 years ago? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Specifically what I was talking about were about the updates that were made several hours ago that stated specifically which boys made it out of the cave. The sources at that time were unreliable and within them listed their source for reporting as Facebook posts. I see now that changes have been made to the article that make my comment unclear. †Basilosauridae  ❯❯❯Talk  02:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, now you're making sense. We should certainly be careful about early reports on which boy is which, because it would suck for a distant relative to read so-and-so's out and then find out differently. Facebook is generally full of crap, though parents should be something like experts on knowing where their children are, even if they say so in a Facebook Group.
 * But we should not base the decision on whether to name a boy at all on how recently he resurfaced (or was reported to have). And we also shouldn't delete the whole thing till 2019 (facetious suggestion, but serious disapproval). InedibleHulk (talk) 03:50, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Surprised that this needs to be said, but there is no legitimate argument for a Facebook group post or the statement of a parent as a source that meets Wikipedia’s guidelines for citing a fact. I get what you are saying, but there is a difference between what is a reasonable source of correct information and what is acceptable to include on Wikipedia. I understand it is frustrating that the two concepts don’t completely overlap. †Basilosauridae ❯❯❯Talk  04:26, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't mean it's good on its own (some parents just don't understand), but when a New York Times reporter is comfortable enough with its authenticity and fitness to print, we can rest a little easier than when Heavy.com or The Daily Mail jumps on it. Old facts, new facts, medium facts; the Times is overall about as tried and true as it gets in America. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Eight boys rescued now but none officially named by the Thai authorities, who are understandably taking measures to protect their identities in order to respect the relatives of those still trapped. The outcome will eventually be reported by reliable sources, but, in my view, until then rumoured names of those who have been rescued should not be included in the article. JezGrove (talk) 22:22, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Equipment
Presumably the boys and their coach entered the cave more suitably equipped for a picnic than for actual caving. Did they have boots? helmets? "waterproof" clothing? Presumably they had only flashlights and no head torches. I think this should be made clear if there are suitable sources. Whatever their original light sources, did these run out and if so when? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:40, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Note
I don't want to step on anyone's toes here but I would like to copy edit and wikify this article. I don't really plan on changing the information but simply insert and use an encyclopedic tone. Best Regards, Barbara ✐ ✉  12:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Improvements are usually welcomed, toes or no toes Martinevans123 (talk) 12:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You are gracious and thank you. Best Regards, Barbara ✐ ✉  12:42, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Bogus video
Beware bogus video clips purporting to be from this event. The water is not crystal-clear nor are there fish gamboling in the cave at Thum Luang! https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/fake-cave-diving-photos-videos-spread-online-amid-thai-rescue-mission-1.4005397 Just a headzup. Thanks for your efforts in bringing this story to the world - kudos! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Macadavy (talk • contribs) 13:57, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Fish can gambol? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Boys' names in Thai
How about adding their names in Thai script and/or RTGS Romanization, like "Yingluck Shinawatra (ยิ่งลักษณ์ ชินวัตร; )"?

--天下危在旦夕 (talk) 14:43, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * They are not the subject of the article, we do not localise every foreign name in the English Wikipedia. WWGB (talk) 14:51, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * But, in the article, the names of the other people have been localized, such as the name of the coach and the title of the soccer team (even accompanied by an IPA pronunciation) in the Disappearance section, and the name of the deceased official in the Death of a rescue diver section. --天下危在旦夕 (talk) 15:16, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Per request, I have added the names in Thai. Thai Cave Person (talk) 22:54, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * This is an excellent idea, and is standard practice in other Thailand-related articles. It's a shame WWGB will not allow it here. Khiikiat (talk) 06:31, 10 July 2018 (UTC).
 * According to MOS:FORLANG only the name of an article's subject is written in a foreign language. This is the English Wikipedia, what benefit does an English reader gain from words written in Thai? WWGB (talk) 06:45, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not digging their nicknames being in an encyclopedia. Abductive  (reasoning) 07:52, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think MOS:FORLANG applies here. MOS:FORLANG governs the "lead section" of an article, but what the OP talked about deals with other sections, and it seems like the norm here allows a foreign name to be accompanied by the vernacular script and sometimes by romanisation. For example, List of Chinese monarchs contain the names generally written in English literature, accompanied by the names written in the Chinese script and their Pinyin romanisation. --Miwako Sato (talk) 08:05, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Why? A Thai-speaker would use the Thai version of Wikipedia, where the names are published in Thai script. Firebrace (talk) 12:08, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I still make the point that writing 13 names in Thai script adds no value to the article for English language readers, our intended audience. And there is no policy or guideline that supports such inclusion. WWGB (talk) 12:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I think it is a matter of respect. Their names in Latin letters do not do justice to their real names and are just approximations at best. I am in favour of adding an additional column for their names in actual Thai alphabet. werldwayd (talk) 16:21, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Kindly add a 3 dimensional movable image of the Lumen of the cave.
Kindly add a 3- dimensional, clickable and movable diagram of the lumen of the cave. Nowadays 3-dimensional images are common in facebook and Google Earth, which are clickable and moves 360 degrees. I have also seen 3 dimensional images of spores, pollens, molecules, crystal lattices etc that can be mooved. Just like that, kindly make a 3 dimensional structure of the cave, because some of the news channels publishes a 2D vertical section that does not reveal the intricacy of the cave path, and some vertical sections although show some up-down bumps,it does not reveal the left right turns. Also the aerial maps (Top view/ horizontal plane) although  reveal some left/ right turns, it does not reveal the up- down bumps. So to simultneously reveal the up down bumps (and dips) along with left right turns, and all other intricacies, a 3 D and detail, movable reconstruction of cave is extremely necessary. 2405:204:4398:F86:0:0:15C1:B8AD (talk) 15:41, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * An excellent suggestion. I suspect this would be a first for Wikipedia, unless you know otherwise. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikimedia won't even use some of its $91 million revenue to create a 2D map... Firebrace (talk) 17:16, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not like the Wikimedia Foundation makes any of the maps you see on Wikipedia, they're all made by users who have the time to make them - or find non-copyrighted ones online. – numbermaniac  06:45, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I know that. But creating maps and diagrams, like the ones you see on news websites, is the kind of thing Wikimedia should be doing with some of its $91 million budget. When people donate money, they do so with an expectation of it being used to improve the content of Wikipedia. We cannot always rely on users having the time, skills, resources, and motivation to make graphics of variable quality for the encyclopedia. It's not 2005 any more... Firebrace (talk) 11:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Good point. Wikipedia's software frequently feels like its stuck in 2005. I hope MediaWiki will one day support interactive SVG files, made in Inkscape or something, so that we can have nice 3D graphics. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 19:56, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think anyone has such a detailed map of this cave. Any diagrams you've seen won't be accurate. Danrok (talk) 01:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Rising Star Cave includes some simple but helpful illustrations of that cave system. Bus stop (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there a non-copyright version of this excellent BBC image? https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/146FC/production/_102380738_thai_cave_detailed_mapv2_976-nc.png  Fig (talk) 09:12, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

electric light
Does anyone know if electric light had been installed in the cave?Retal (talk) 22:02, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Electric light is typically only ever installed in show caves, which where the boys were starnded this most certainly was not. All of the videos posted online suggest this was not the case. All of the sources I've read said the boys were sat in darkness during their ordeal. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 10 July 2018 (UTC) *(but see reply from Firebrace below)
 * I've mostly only been reading the BBC News coverage. This mentioned that they took various battery-powered torches with them into the cave -- as anyone does, since caves are rather dark. But also mentioned that these probably ran out during the nine days. They might have rationed their use of course. Once they were located, lights of various sorts were brought in either on the divers' helmets (as seen rather glaringly in the videos) or separately. So battery powered yes, cabled electric lighting no. Rigging an oxygen line was mentioned, and this would have been much higher priority than an electric cable, since lighting could be provided easily enough by ferrying in some small amount of LED lights powered by lithium-based batteries (both are very small for a given capability.) MPS1992 (talk) 23:00, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
 * According to The Caves of Northern Thailand (2018) by Martin Ellis, there is a car park, visitor centre with a detailed map of the cave, an "impressive entrance chamber is 80 m long and leads to easy walking in mostly spacious passages for the first kilometre along a well-formed, partly cemented path. The park rangers guide tourists through this section of the cave". From what I have read, the boys and coach entered the show cave alone, with no intention of going beyond its marked path, and were forced to go deeper by rising flood water. The book has nothing to say about electric lighting. Firebrace (talk) 00:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, Firebrace. Sounds quite a nice place for a picnic. Electric light is hardly notable for a show cave, so maybe it has it in that first part? Incidentally, the BBC News last night said that the boys had gone to the cave "to write their names on the wall". Perhaps this is a local tradition, rather than just wanton vandalism? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:41, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Changing the lead following move discussion
The above debate regarding the requested move is currently ongoing for 4 days, with 3 days remaining. Both sides have made good arguments regarding the proposed title, 2018 Thailand cave rescue. Regardless of what the closing administrator will decide, can we discuss how to change the lead following the discussion?

If the "Thailand cave rescue" side wins, we could have something like this:

If the "Tham Luang cave rescue" side wins, then perhaps we could still somewhat satisfy both parties by writing:

If that doesn't work, then maybe we can put "Thailand cave rescue" somewhere down the lead:

What do you guys think? Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 16:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me, the title 2018 thailand cave rescue won't probably win it's side but the Battle is not yet done. (humor) Oppa Justine!   Talk  9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Which one looks good to you? And yes, it seems the oppose camp has the edge here, so the title probably won't be changed. I'm glad, because I am one of the opposers. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 05:12, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Can't you just change the lead now? You don't have to wait for the RM to end. I think "The Tham Luang cave rescue, known internationally as the Thailand cave rescue..." is a reasonable sentence to have in the lead. Edge3 (talk) 05:25, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I see "Thai cave rescue" rather than "Thailand cave rescue" everywhere. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 05:28, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


 * It seemed reasonable to wait for the RM to conclude, since it determines the first sentence. You prefer the second option, right? What do you think of the third? Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 15:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with both options 2 and 3, and I slightly prefer option 2. However, I also might be okay with the lead as currently written. It is not mandatory for us to include the article title verbatim in the lead sentence. See MOS:BOLDAVOID. Edge3 (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Ok, we could do: "... known internationally as the Thailand cave rescue or Thai cave rescue, ...". - Manifestation (talk) 15:44, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

I opted for the second option. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 10:05, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

WP:NEWBIES
Apparently several people need to quickly apologize for bullying this newbie, who even had a source for his edit. --Espoo (talk) 10:18, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see that a single source makes something "well-reported" nor necessarily notable for inclusion in the article. The IP (whether they are a "NEWBIE" or not) would be well advised to discuss the topic here instead of edit warring? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I have blocked the IP for edit-warring, however as I'm sure you're aware a block of that kind can (and indeed frequently is) be issued even if the edits are unambiguously good faith. Ritchie333 (talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:33, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, obviously an "enthusiastic" new editor. Let's hope for some engagement at the IP's Talk page, or even for a registered account (that wouldn't be block evasion, would it?) Perhaps the legal posiutin will become clearer after 24 hours. One wonders what the legal position might have been, for all the participants, if this had happened in the US. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Not an "enthusiastic" new editor, but a bitter person who came here to vent anger. See their edits. Furthermore, he or she misrepresented the cited news source. Yes, the article quotes people saying that legal action might be taken against the coach for putting the children in danger. However, the article also quotes lawyers saying that the coach will probably not face criminal charges, that he clearly had no malicious intent and was himself a victim, that he supported the boys throughout the ordeal, and that "[a]ll parents would be very likely to forgive the coach for this action". - Manifestation (talk) 12:04, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Welp Apologise if I told him or her edits once is disruptive but it's not bullying. <span style="border:2px solid green;background:black;padding:1px;color:green;text-shadow:green 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em">  S  cobido    <span style="border:2px solid green;background:black;padding:1px;color:green;text-shadow:green 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em"> S clamera     11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Manifestation, although bitterness, enthusiasm and misrepresentation need not be mutually exclusive. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Ok, I've written a little about the heat directed at the group, in particular the coach. In a neutral way, so I hope this will satisfy everyone. Feel free to improve. Cheers, Manifestation (talk) 13:15, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Let's all just take a deep breath and imagine we're trapped in a darkened, flooded Wikipedia article..... Martinevans123 (talk) 13:25, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes this is the way to treat an obvious newbie, i.e. using their information instead of claiming they've engaged in bad behavior and bad editing and sending sending them cold and bureaucratic and overly geeky comments and instructions on their talk page and instead of blocking them when they have good reason to be angry. --Espoo (talk) 13:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * They were blocked for 3RR, not for being understandably angry? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:53, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * They were treated badly and therefore became angry and engaged in edit warring. Even at this stage they still explained their actions whereas the experienced editors and admin did not make an effort to welcome them or even communicate well. It's best to discuss this at Wikipedia_talk:Please_do_not_bite_the_newcomers because this is a very serious problem for all of Wikipedia, not just here or in the case of this one badly treated newbie, who still deserves an apology. --Espoo (talk) 14:20, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, any editor needs to communicate with other editors, via their Talk page, or the relevant article Talk page, or even both? Even a new one. Edit summaries are good, but they're not really meant to be a means of discussion, are they? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:24, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * You clearly have trouble putting yourself in somebody else's shoes and understanding why they may think they can revert many times because that's what the "insiders" are doing too. You especially don't understand why people have a right to be angry and act aggressively when their good intentions were unjustly and illogically labeled as not constructive or even as vandalism when they were clearly neither. The experienced editor should start a friendly discussion on their or the article's talk page and should give the newbie a link in the edit summary to that discussion. --Espoo (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for telling me. I didn't realise I was to blame here. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:56, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Air not oxygen
Divers do not breath oxygen, they breath air (21% oxygen, 79% Nitrogen). Oxygen breathed under pressure is toxic.

I know many news articles incorrectly say "oxygen" but why compound their error and ignorance?

@ previous unsigned comment (Possibly done in edit version https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Tham_Luang_cave_rescue&oldid=849066134, Difference https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ATham_Luang_cave_rescue&type=revision&diff=849066134&oldid=849065109 ) is absolutely correct. Either ordinary air or a breathing gas (with a certain specific O2 concentration) is used. For patients with oxygen deprivation, Carbon monoxide toxicity, etc more higher concentration of oxygen is used in breathing gas. So describing ordinary air as oxygen causes potential misunderstanding, but journalists often do so. 2405:204:4421:E901:25D0:2F5D:179A:B58B (talk) 09:57, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, we are meant to reflect what is said in "RS" sources, rather than "tell the truth". But we need to be selective on the sources used for this. I have changed the first instance in the lead section from "supplies of oxygen" to "supplies of air". Martinevans123 (talk) 11:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Despite the possibly misleading headline, New York Times is correct. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:32, 6 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Of course, they will be breathing air not pure oxygen. There are plenty of misnomers used by non-divers when referring to diving equipment. The correct name for the tank is an diving cylinder, and flippers are called fins not flippers. But I have seen photos of oxygen being delivered to the caves, presumably it is used to top up the oxygen levels via lines in to the cave's air spaces. Danrok (talk) 01:37, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Or maybe it was delivered in good faith but was quite useless. We use RS, not our own interpretations of images. Andrewa (talk) 15:36, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Many sources have said "oxygen" and they are wrong. We can't correct them, but we can and should ignore them if we know they're wrong... and they are. Rebreathers might have been useful but there are no RSs saying they were available or considered (dunno why not, frankly). They seem to have used air. Pure oxygen without the requisite gear would probably have killed them. Andrewa (talk) 15:31, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Picture of the fallen rescue diver
The hero should be pictured — Preceding unsigned comment added by AZDub (talk • contribs) 13:10, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The one fatality was very sad. But, I think, if one lesson can be taken from this incident it's to do with effective teamwork. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * perhaps this one but the problem is copyright but I think Martinevans123 can help?. <span style="border:2px solid green;background:black;padding:1px;color:green;text-shadow:green 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em">  S  cobido    <span style="border:2px solid green;background:black;padding:1px;color:green;text-shadow:green 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em"> S clamera     11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * The publisher there seems to credit Facebook with the copyright of that image. Someone would need to investigate how that image was first published. But even then unlikely to meet the stringent Commons requirements, without an explicit declaration of release into the public domain. Martinevans123 (talk)
 * As a redirect (which I just updated) exists from Saman Kunan to the section, we could upload a suitable image to en:Wikipedia for fair use usage. Andrewa (talk) 15:00, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems perfectly reasonable. I'm pretty sure the image has probably gained worldwide exposure already. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:09, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Just note that it needs to be uploaded to en:Wikipedia, not commons, and that a valid fair use rationale needs to be provided. I'm a bit busy IRL or I'd do it myself but feel free to email or post on my talk page if I can help. Andrewa (talk) 15:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Similar to this image, for example? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:32, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly... although I note that this particular image hasn't been reviewed, it would have |image has rationale=yes if it had been... this isn't my area of expertise but the rationale there looks more than adequate to me. Andrewa (talk) 15:46, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Anyone who has a few minutes is welcome to upload one. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:54, 11 July 2018 (UTC)