Talk:Thames Barrier/Archive 1

Is it upstream or downstream of London? How does it work?
I still don't understand how it works.

Is it upstream or downstream of London? (The BBC news "how it works" animation on this page http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6964281.stm implies that it is to stop back flow from the sea, rather than down flow from inland, but nowhere in the Wikipedia article is it explicit).

A paragraph or two describing how it works in terms of overall river flows, with perhaps a map, would be fantastic.

Francis Irving 11:27, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above comment. At first glance, it is not clear how the barrier actually works so I came to this site trying to find an explanation. The main article was so opaque that I ended up coming to this discussion page and found the link above to the BBC page which has an animation that explains it perfectly.


 * Some simple explanation like this needs to be put on the main article.


 * 62.49.56.42 13:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a second para to the lead section on its locations and principal function, but ideally the article should have a map and diagrams of the barrier in use. Rexparry sydney 12:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Why doesn't the water just go around the barrier?Neodymion (talk) 12:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Because the barrier spans the entire river. That aside, please see WP:TALK. Talk Islander 14:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Headline text
how does it work? the barrier is a series of ten separate movable gates positioned end-to-end across the river. Each gate is pivoted and supported between concrete piers that house the operating equipment. See there are to gates that take in water and when ready it lets it out.

Rather than try to edit it as I really have no knowlege of how the barrier works and haven't got much time at the moment, please feel free to put it back once it's cleaned up a little?

Proposed addition:
I propose adding the following:

Concerns about the Future of the Thames Barrier
There are concerns about the future efficacy of the Thames barrier, in light of the increasing sea level world wide, possibly due to global warming or other factors. The Thames barrier was designed to last until well into the 22nd century, but there is evidence to suggest that in it's current state the Thames Barrier will only last a decade or so.

In an interview on the 17th October, 2003, Ken Livingstone said the following:

"On the question of flooding in the Thames gateway, we would have to be particularly stupid just to plough ahead and build vast numbers of new homes and more job opportunities in the Thames gateway without raising flood barriers. We are going to be in a position where in a few years time we will start planning structural changes to the Thames barrier which will give us another 10 to 15 years of operational life before the water laps over the top. About the same time we'll start planning presumably our newer, bigger barrier to cope with the effects of global warming so that by the middle of this century we'll have a new great barrier to protect London."

This suggests that the failure of the Thames Barrier will be soon - within the immediate future - and that emergency measures will need to be undertaken to lengthen it's lifespan until another barrier can be built to protect the entire estuary.

This is my first contribution to WP! I'm a little worried and concerned about the Thames Barrier, and I think it doesn't break NPOV to have this concern expressed as part of the article. I don't see much public information about the realistic end-of-life of the Thames Barrier, and it definitely seems that its much shorter than originally designed.

If anyone can find any actual studies or more concrete facts they can add, that would be brilliant. Thanks!

-- NathanO 12:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I dug around some more, and found this link. It is full of very technical information. I'm wondering if someone can verify its data? The link is http://www.floodlondon.com/floodtb.htm

-- NathanO 12:23, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

That website is to advertise Richard Doyle's novel about London flooding. The novel is based on the premise that the Thames Barrier is too small to defend London from the highest of surge tides.

The Thames Barrier was designed with long term changes of sea level in mind. However these changes have accelerated since it was designed in the 1970's and will continue to do so over the next decades. The Environment Agency together wiith the Thames Estuary Partnership are looking at what is needed to keep the barrier operational until the year 2100.

[http://www.thamesweb.com/topic.php?topic_name=Flood%20Defence

Meanwhile the Thames Barrier was designed to protect London against the biggest sea surge flood expected in a 1000 year period up to 2030. Even with increasing rates of sea level rise the protection provided by the barrier will continue to be well above average for the country. --[[User:CC|CC] 16:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Whale
I'm removing the reference to the Thames Whale, as it has utterly no relevance to this article. It seems likely to me that marine animals will swim through the barrier with some regularity, given its river location. According to Wikipedia's own pointless article on the Whale, a porpoise was found in the Thames on the same day. It too will bravely have traversed the barrier, although nobody seems to have felt the need to mention it in this article yet. A whale once swam into the Thames and died. Let us all struggle to come to terms with this tragic loss and move on with our lives. — Anty &#09829;

How height is it?
Does anyone know the techinical specs for this? It would be nice to know how much water(height) it can block? How quickly can it be raised? Is it automatic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.31.146 (talk • contribs) 2006-02-02, 22:25:45
 * Take a look here: http://www.floodlondon.com/floodtb.htm - Scroll down around half way, and click "Facts and Figures". Takes about 15 minutes to raise/lower. No, it's not automatic, it's controlled by a team of 60-70 engineers. TheIslander 01:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The barrier is built to defend against a flood level of +6.90m OD(N) or 6.90 metres above mean sea level. OD(N) is Ordnance Datum Newlyn the UK mean sea level datum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.249.131 (talk • contribs) 2007-04-25, 07:34:42

Sea level rise of 75 cm in 100 years?
I added a "citation needed" tag to this statement because it seems implausible. I can't find any corroborating (or contradicting) figures with a quick search. Kday 14:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this is a 'headline' figure which comes from using the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Chnage (IPCC) figures from the Third Assessment Report (TAR) of 2001. I believe the Environment Agency uses the high end projections.



in conjunction with the expected life of the structure and monitoring of long term sea levels by the Proudman Oceanographic Laboratory(POL) - Permamnent Service for Mean Sea Level (PSMSL)



--[[User:CC|CC] 15:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Sand Kite Collison?
I visited the Thames Barrier Information Centre today, which included several photos of a collison between the sand dredger 'Sand Kite' and one of the barrier gates. I was surprised to see no mention of this incident here as it certainly seems newsworthy. Unfortunately the only link I can find is this, which is quite brief. Does anyone have any more information about the collison. Ninja-lewis 01:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Coordinates
How do I go about making it to a scale of 1:25000 rather than 1:100000? Thanks RHB 20:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

video
Is there a video of the gates closing? JanCK 15:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've got a series of still photos I took during a planned closure a few years ago. They're taken from within the compound where the public can't get so I'd have to check there's nothing dodgy about uploading them to Wikipedia. The Hugmonster 14:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

external links to maps
Why are there links to maps within the external links?

There is a link to multimap. Why multimap? Aerial photo of Thames Barrier.

And there is a link Other map and aerial photo sources. to http://www.rhaworth.myby.co.uk/oscoor_a.htm?541490_179525_region:GB_scale:10000

What do we need this server http://www.rhaworth.myby.co.uk/ for? http://www.rhaworth.myby.co.uk/ redirects back to http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php?params=51.4964513181107_N_0.03851943051962481_E_region:GB_scale:10000 but the coordinates at the top of the page link to http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php?params=51_29_52_N_00_02_12_E_type:city(7,000,000)_region:GB-LND

I don't see what we need this link to multimap for? And I don't see why we need to go via http://www.rhaworth.myby.co.uk/ Maybe that's an old way of linking to locations before coordinates where introduced to the english wikipedia. Dunno.

JanCK 15:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Uses of Barrier in tv shows
Having seen the Thames Barrier recently used in Doctor Who and Spooks, I thought it must have been a recent construction and the BBC were capatilising on it for a dramatic effect in their shows. I was surprised to see it has been open for some considerable time. Does anyone know the reason why the barrier has never been used for dramatic effect like this before but suddenly in 2006 we get two shows utilising it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.9.186.133 (talk) 00:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I don't think it had anything to do with the Environment Agency's Flood Awareness campaigns because I never saw any press releases mentioning it. I don't think any of Dr Who was actually filmed at the barrier, but parts of Spooks were. All the overhead shots of the barrier itself were taken from just below the control tower (which was never actually shown). The internal stuff was filmed elsewhere - the real tunnel under the Thames is much narrower! The Hugmonster 13:59, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Bondi
I can't believe there's no mention of the man who pushed it through government, despite entrenched opposition from the Port of London Authority and London Transport. I am talking about the government's Chief Scientific Advisor, Sir Hermann Bondi. His papers on the project are noted at

http://janus.lib.cam.ac.uk/db/node.xsp?id=EAD%2FGBR%2F0014%2FBOND%208%2F2

Blaise 21:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Propose Expanding to Storm Surge Barrier
There is currently no article defining storm surge barrier, so it should be a good idea to split the article into two. --algocu 00:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Your suggested subject is covered under the floodgate article so why not just link the Thames barrier article to the floodgate article, the storm surge article and other related topics rather than split it? In addition most of the information in the Thames barrier article is specific to it rather than generic so in my view would not sit well in the more general article. --UKColin

Filling up
I've wondered for a long time why, if the barrier was closed, the river wouldn't just fill up the part on the 'inside' of the barrier, flooding the city. Surely once the barrier is up there will only be so long before the river floods the city in this way. I assume I'm misunderstanding something here, but I can't find an answer on wikipedia or elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.230.123 (talk • contribs) 12:46, 28 July 2007
 * When the barrier is closed, it's actually placed into an 'underflow' position - there is a gap of around a metre (I think) at the bottom specifically to stop what you describe happening. The Islander 11:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * When the barrier is open the river rises with the tide at a rate of about 1 metre per hour, reaches a peak at high tide, then falls again at the same rate for another 6 hours and so on. When the barrier is closed the 'estuary' part of the river downstream of the barrier continues to rise and fall as normal while the 'city' part of the river upstream of the barrier stays at a fairly constant level. The 'city' part only rises slowly at about 0.3m per hour with the fresh water coming down the river. So closing the barrier just prevents the peak of the tide getting up to the city. When the tide level in the estuary falls to match the level in the 'city' part of the river the barrier is reopened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.6.249.131 (talk • contribs) 2007-07-28, 17:27:23