Talk:Thamos, King of Egypt

Title
Any reason why we can't have this article under its English title, "Thamos, King of Egypt"? I'll happily move it if nobody objects. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:01, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The Opera Project has adopted the following: "The standard practice is to use English titles of operas for article names and in articles when it is common convention (e.g. The Marriage of Figaro. The Magic Flute, The Barber of Seville). This reflects the Wikipedia convention "use English in titles when possible".  Nevertheless most operas are performed in English-speaking countries under their original names (e.g. Così fan tutte and Der Freischütz) and English titles for them should not be invented."  This is a common-sense approach which, broadly speaking, is generally used for literary and musical works in en.Wikipedia.  There is no well-known English title for this work (indeed, two versions are to be found at the start of the article), so it's best left as is. --GuillaumeTell 22:44, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I certainly agree with the Così fan tuttes, Der Freischützes and La bohèmes of the world, and I'm on the record as arguing for not translating them (generally not even in a supposedly helpful footnote).
 * But Thamos is not in that category. Maybe it's occasionally performed, broadcast or referenced under its German title in anglo countries, but predominantly it gets an English title, because:
 * a perfectly acceptable one is available, the only real quibble being whether the "in" in the original stays as "in" or becomes "of" (I'm no German speaker, but I suspect "in" is a mistranslation in any event - but don't quote me); and
 * anything with Ägypten in it is asking too much of most people.


 * I’ve just googled "Mozart Thamos King" – which would bring up both the variants we currently show. I went through the first 7 pages, and the results were:
 * King Thamos – 1
 * King Thamos of Egypt – 1
 * Thamos, King in Egypt – 3
 * Thamos, King of Egypt - 65.
 * I have no reason to suppose that the first 1,000 and indeed the first 100,000 hits would not be in roughly the same proportion. So I disagree with your claim that there is no well-known English title for this work. Whatever gets decided here, I'd suggest removing "King Thamos" as an acceptable variant, certainly these days.


 * I have to share a little anecdote that I found very amusing. A decade ago, I was listening to some excerpts from Thamos on radio.  When it ended, the announcer said "We've been listening to excerpts from Thamos, King of Egypt, played by the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra conducted by Sir Thamos Beecham."  It probably doesn't come through here, but the way he said it cracked me up for a week.  :)  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Good one!


 * Returning to our moutons, I've also done some Googling, using Advanced Search. In the "all these words" box, I put Mozart;  in the "exact wording or phrase" box, I put each of the various possibilities in turn;  and in the "Language" box, I chose English (so as not to include German-language sites).  The results were:
 * Mozart + "Thamos, König in Ägypten": 2060
 * Mozart + "Thamos, King in Egypt": 43
 * Mozart + "Thamos, King of Egypt": 1970
 * Mozart + "King Thamos": 1650
 * Mozart + "King Thamos of Egypt": 4


 * Quite a strong showing for "King Thamos", don't you think? Incidentally, that's what I've always known this as, but then I was brought up on "Il Seraglio" for "Die Entführung..." Discuss! --GuillaumeTell 22:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Mind you, some of those hits were references to the character of King Thamos, not references to the name of the opera - but some were indeed the latter.  In any case, it seems clear that English titles outrank the German title in English sites by almost 2:1 (3667 to 2060), so whatever we choose, it should be an English title.  Of the English titles, "Thamos, King of Egypt" (1970) wins, with "King Thamos" (1650) in a strong second place.  --  JackofOz (talk) 22:35, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. Moved now.  --  JackofOz (talk) 00:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You also need to alter Template:Mozart operas, otherwise the new title won't show bold on the navbox at top right. I'm still not tremendously happy about the move and might raise it at the Opera Project. Best. --GuillaumeTell 11:59, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That was the first thing I did after I moved the page, and it's fine there, but for some reason it's not showing through here or on other relevant articles. --  JackofOz (talk) 19:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. There's Template:Mozart Operas and Template:Mozart operas.  Sigh! --GuillaumeTell 01:13, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Parodies
The three choruses from Thamos were provided with sacred texts in the early 19th century, to become the three motets Splendete te, Deus, KV Anh. 121 (No. 1); Jesu, Rex tremendae majestatis, KV Anh. 123 (No. 2); and Ne pulvis et cinis, KV Anh. 122 (No. 3). Double sharp (talk) 06:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)