Talk:Thanksgiving (United States)/Archive 1

Add a Link?
Does anybody feel that we should add a link to History of Thanksgiving - Please give your reasons as to why or why not! Thanks! West wikipedia
 * As before - same reason - Because it does not cite it's sources, doesn't add anything already in Wikipedia, the site is non-notable i.e. it hasn't been cited as an authority by other reliable sources and it's authors are completely unknown. In fact if I google for earlyhistory googlepages com I get nothing. Please read WP:WEB (under criteria), [[WP: iS for losers who have no sense of humour or thanks to god says Justin beiber

The last link "Article: "Should Christians Celebrate Thanksgiving Day?" " Does not belong in a an encylopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.92.241.233 (talk) 01:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Thanksgiving?
Should this article be merged with Thanksgiving? Some of the material is redundant. . ..
 * Strongly oppose - This article was recently split from Thanksgiving, for the reason that American Thanksgiving and Canadian Thanksgiving are really two different holidays. The Thanksgiving article was basically two separate articles interleaved, and was hard to read.  When it was split, it became simply a disambiguation page.  Since then, it has been expanded a little to include some basic information on both the American and Lunch is good wich states i HATE U LOSER, which is probably good.  There are links to the main articles Thanksgiving (Canada) and Thanksgiving (United States) for those who need/want more details.
 * Merging this back into Thanksgiving would mean that Thanksgiving (Canada) would need to be merged back in as well, which would bring back the original problem: Two essentially distinct holidays sharing the same article.  Those who want to read about Canadian Thanksgiving need to sift through all the information on American Thanksgiving and vice-versa. &mdash; P urple   RAIN  14:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Agree - The articles are the same and i doubt any other people apart the complainer above me will have any problems with it.

Strongly oppose - The two holidays do share several traits, but they are not even on the same day. I'd suggest Thanksgiving just be a disambiguation page leading to either Thanksgiving (United States) or Thanksgiving (Canada) without the level of detail it currently deals with. Two holidays, two pages. --Blake the bookbinder (talk) 13:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose - Canadian Thanksgiving and Americian thanksgiving, are very different, done in different places, done on different days. Keep it how it is Warrior4321 (talk) 16:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose as has already been said. Let's not reverse a good decision made for good reasons. As Americocentric as I am in so many ways, we must remember this is the English language Wikipedia and not the American Wikipedia. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim  18:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Qualified Oppose - Keep the two articles separate, but only subject to Blake the bookbinder's condition - 'Thanksgiving' should just be a disambiguation page. Cooke (talk) 10:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose The holiday as celebrated in the US is significantly different from Canada, and for that matter other countries where similar holidays are observed. As such (and given the amount of US specific information in this page) it seems inappropriate to reduce the amount of real information on the celebration of Thanksgiving in the US. This is in line with the "Article size" guidelineTletnes (talk) 18:06, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Check quotes for accurracy
The quote attributed to Governor Bradford is dubious as it has rather romanticised flourishes characteristic of later 19th century American mythology about the so-called Pilgrims of Massachusetts Bay. The Pilgrims were English Separatists in reality. Phrases such as "all ye Pilgrims" and "in ye meeting house" are to be verified. The archaic English word "ye" served as both a form of the plural "you" as in "Praise ye the Lord" meaning "All of you praise the Lord." It also functioned as a contraction for the word "the" so that the phrase "in ye meeting house" was understood to mean "in the meeting house." Jm3106jr 13:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. We're taking it as provided by Catherine Millard, who may not be a respectable historian. It's not in Bradford's memoire, "Of Plymouth Plantation".  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 18:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

There are problems of historical accuracy in the article which reflect common scholastic misconceptions. In particular, the role of the natives in the lives of the settlers. The factions developed interdependent relationships with one another. But the pilgrims certainly would not have perished without the assistance of the natives. Historically, the settlers were adept at farming and fishing (both being staples of life all throughout Europe at the time), though popular culture seems to portray them as utterly incompetent in these areas. The result of this misconception is to miss exactly WHY the settlers were thankful and to whom. The were thankful FOR the natives among other blessings; they were thankful TO "Almighty God." In all written accounts from the time period, all the way through the proclamations of the 1700s and 1800s, we see that Thanksgiving's theme is thankfulness TO God, FOR the blessings the attribute to him. This is politically incorrect and historically accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.170.34.199 (talk) 16:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I would argue that bringing the settlers into it as the main focus is a scholastic misconception. The thanksgivings that make up the majority of this article (i.e. pre-1863) are more of the generic thanksgiving mentioned in the main article. They exist as thanksgivings, but they aren't connected through tradition, which is what the usual implication is. Novium (talk) 20:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ..."and the holiday itself is often nicknamed Turkey Day. Thanksgiving, traditionally a Christian holiday, is rarely celebrated by those of Jewish faith." Not Wikipedia at its most sensible. --Wetman (talk) 05:18, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

There are actually a lot of very shaky sources (to folksy websites with no solid historical pretensions) throughout the whole article.Cooke (talk) 10:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Needs to include a more secular intro
The quote about Thanksgiving being traditionally about giving thanks to God for the bounty/harvest I don't have any qualms with but I'm not sure that is the case for the majority of Americans for the last few decades. Thanksgiving in many parts of the country does not have overt religious connections so I'd suggest keeping the traditional definition and purpose but adding something along the lines of "but modern Thanksgiving celebrations are more connected with secular family gatherings and a large celebration meal". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.182.103 (talk) 07:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I brought back a phrase that was recently deleted. It goes some way toward getting at your point.  Ichormosquito (talk) 18:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless you can sight a legitimate poll, I have a problem with using terminology such as "more connected" or "primarily identified" regarding the secularism of Thanksgiving. Without supporting evidence, this emphasis on secularism over religion should be removed from the article. Lamp25 (talk) 19:49, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur with Lamp25. Unless some legitimate poll is referenced, describing Thanksgiving (United States) as primarily identified with secularism is inaccurate.  The origins of U.S. Thanksgiving celebrations are clearly religious and numerous references are available from throughout U.S. history.  Following the logic in suggesting that Thanksgiving is primarily secular, one could imply that Christmas is also secular.  The Encyclopedia Britannica reference used does not appear to relate to the sentence in the article.  Placing this statement in the introductory paragraph is inappropriate, particularly with such weak evidence of its factual basis.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by James Endicott (talk • contribs) 19:37, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the current intro, which mentions that it's a secular holiday but with religious origins is a good balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djomac (talk • contribs) 05:06, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Article needs to be more secular
Article is entirely too religious in slant. While christian underpinings are important historically, they are of exagerated importance here. Article neglects to mention any other religions other than christianity. --Picaman (talk) 23:16, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Talking about Thanksgiving without mentioning the religious aspect is political correctness run a muck. The early Thanksgiving days were all about giving thanks to God. Should readers of Wikipedia be ignorant of that fact? As of Noon EST on Thanksgiving Day, 2008, there is no specific mention of giving thanks to God. This is a nonsensical distortion of history. It should also mention that for many people Thanksgiving has deteriorated into "Turkey Day" with no giving of thanks to God and occasional giving thanks to other people. GlennTuley (talk) 18:00, 27 November 2008 (UTC) GlennTuley

I think you're incorrect. Thanksgiving in the United States is a traditionally non-denominational religious holiday. It is a nationally-recognized secular holiday too. But its origins are distinctly religious in nature. To call it a secular holiday is incorrect. The whole purpose of the day was to thank God for a bountiful harvest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.75.198 (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If there are other beings/entities/people/etc who are traditionally "thanked" during this holiday, to the extent that such observations are prevalent throughout the US and significantly promote the holiday, please add these under the "Giving Thanks" section. Lamp25 (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not believe that the date cited regarding Massachusetts Bay Colony is right: "Pilgrims are not to be confused with Puritans who established their own Massachusetts Bay Colony nearby (current day Boston) in 1928 and had very different religious beliefs. [4]" Seems "1928" is not a significant enough date for the Thanksgiving article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snoopie76 (talk • contribs) 02:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

criticism
Every year the Nation runs an article about the bloody side of Thanksgiving: giving thanks for victory after massacring the Pequot, etc. I was expecting to see some of that here, or perhaps counter-claims that this is exaggeration. Certainly the idea of Thanksgiving as at least historically a celebration of conquest is widespread enough to warrant mention? kwami (talk) 11:40, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * As a "random" sample of one, that is the first time I've ever heard that interpretation. Might it be regional or something?  (I've lived in California essentially all my 53 years). Jackrepenning (talk) 15:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "In a little more than one hour, five or six hundred of these barbarians were dismissed from a world that was burdened with them...We had sufficient light from the word of God for our proceedings."-Puritan divine Cotton Mather, Magnalia Christi Americana. "This day forth shall be a day of celebration and thanksgiving for subduing the Pequots."-Mass. Governor John Winthrop, first official Thanksgiving Day proclamation. This article is completely one-sided and needs serious editing to reflect history.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.255.161.193 (talk) 00:24, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

There are conflicting "thanksgiving" interpretations based on oral histories and written diaries. Further discussion of all viewpoints should be mentioned. A very good interpretation resides at this address: http://www.ewebtribe.com/NACulture/articles/thanksgiving.html   and another viewpoint here: http://www.danielnpaul.com/TheRealThanksgiving.html   I, personally, cannot buy into the "traditional" Pilgrim/Indian story as whitewashed and taught currently. Kayanderson (talk) 04:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Here's another useful link: http://www.oyate.org/resources/shortthanks.html
 * Jgui (talk) 20:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Another American holiday trashed. Never heard of this crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.6.39 (talk) 13:56, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I see the Canadian version hasn't been attacked. Wonder why. Oh yeah, Canadians are the nicest people in the world. Just ask First Nations Reps. Silly me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.6.39 (talk) 14:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I was also very surprised with the traditional, whitewashed version of Thanksgiving presented here. I agree that interpretations as a celebration of subjugation should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don.molinero (talk • contribs) 23:05, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

History -- first Thanksgiving
Shouldn't Frobisher's thanksgiving celebration be first? I forget the precise date, it was held sometime in the late 16th century in modern Canada. 128.208.35.229 (talk) 02:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The thanksgiving celebrations mentioned under the "Spaniards" title are irrelevent in the history of the Thanksgiving holiday celebrated in the United States. These celebrations did not contribute to the current observance and really should be removed from this article. Anyone who disagrees should present some sort of solid evidence of how these events influenced the current Thanksgiving holiday in the United States. We trace our Thanksgiving history to the celebrations of early English and Dutch settlers, not to the Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.73.75.198 (talk) 21:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Berkeley Hundred charter quote
This quote is allegedly from the charter of the Berkeley Hundred:

We ordaine that the day of our ships arrival at the place assigned for plantacon in the land of Virginia shall be yearly and perpetually keept holy as a day of thanksgiving to Almighty God.

I've removed the given citation and requested a new one, because the one there fails to verify. If you go and read the actual web page, the article quote is not there. Indeed, the words "God" and "holy" appear nowhere in the cited page. There is a similar quote, but not using the phrasing given in the article. — DragonHawk (talk|hist) 23:25, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Presidential pardon incorrect
see National Thanksgiving Turkey Presentation The tradition of pardoning a turkey started with George H.W. Bush. Tletnes (talk) 17:59, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Criticism of Conventional Narrative
Can anyone vouch for this? The Ludwig von Mises Institute claims the story of Thanksgiving is misleading and the real reason for the starving was the Pilgrims socialistic economic model. I've heard Rush Limbaugh relate this on his radio show and I see it around the internet, but nowhere else. Here's the link: http://mises.org/story/336 71.248.11.235 (talk) 03:11, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Check this book from 1901. Pages 206-208 pretty much looks like a basis for the story, though it doesn't use the term "socialism". Dicklyon (talk) 05:36, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Remove Link to Alice's Restaurant?
Other than a few old senior citizens, who the heck cars about some 50 year old song/movie? I recommend this link be removed. If it remains, what's to stop an endless number of links to songs & movies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.71.64 (talk) 15:36, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You recommend it be removed? You removed it yourself!  Enigma  message 15:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what the rationale for removing it is. It's an iconic song for what may be the largest boom generation ever (many of whom are not senior citizens yet, in case anyone cares), and is still played every Thanksgiving day on some radio stations.  But the reason it belongs is simply that it's closely related to the article topic. Dicklyon (talk) 00:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Other than user Dicklyon, does anyone even know the song? How can we possibly link to every 50 or 100 year old "song" about thanksgiving and still have a relevant article? Should we just keep the link for another few years until "boomer" senior citizens finally fade away then remove it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.71.64 (talk) 16:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Has anyone proposed linking other songs? Or all songs?  Not that I've heard of, but if it comes up we can discuss it.  As to whether anyone knows it, that's hard to say, as many of the people who used to know the whole thing by memory have hazy memories of the sixties.  That's why they might appreciate a reminder.  By the way, it was a war protest song, which is why it was so  popular among the boomer generation. Dicklyon (talk) 03:39, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Does it matter if it is an old song? Obviously since you are a member of the newer generation, the old items can not be relevant. Since the constitution is about 200 years old, we should not learn about it because it is antiquated. How about this 99.240.71.64, you sign into a registered account and then we will continue this conversation. --Jab843 (talk) 22:23, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Whether a user has a registered account or not is irrelevant to this discussion. --S.dedalus (talk) 22:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I quite agree that registration is neither required nor important. What is said or written is much more important than who says or writes it. However, the point about documenting older things is important. Should we not document the creation of the planet just because it happened billions of years ago? It seems to me there is far too much documentation of recent and current events in Wikipedia. Events can only be seen clearly after the passage of a reasonable period of time. The immature of the species (myself included when I was in that phase) never realise this:-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.109.135 (talk) 10:11, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually the earth is only a couple thousand years old.. and just because christ was crucified 2000 years ago that doesn't mean that it is not well documented

Spelling correction requested (I'm an IP)
Hi, I noticed a typo in the article. Since the article is semiprotected and I'm just another lonely IP I cannot edit the article. So please make this correction - The second pargraph after the heading "1619 thanksgiving, the Virginia colony" has the word "kept" erroneously typed as "keept". Please correct. Thank you. Hail Wikipedia!! 203.122.33.194 (talk) 10:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This spelling "error" is part of a quotation of 400-year-old English, and is how it was written, so it should remain that way. There are other spelling "errors" in that quotation (e.g. "platacon") which should likewise remain, since they are part of a quotation. &mdash; P urple   RAIN  15:27, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, Ok! 125.21.165.158 (talk) 12:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Funny, the word kept is not mispelled in the page it references. Although, the word "We" is.

Date FDR signed Thanksgiving bill
Researching for a program, I noted two (2) different dates for FDR's signature of the BILL setting the date of THANKSGIVING... was it NOVEMBER 26 or DECEMBER 26, 1941? I have NOT been able to find documentation so far... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.112.118.47 (talk) 11:39, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

AMG —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.196.124.228 (talk) 17:15, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

George Washington's Thanksgiving Proclamation of 1789
WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANKSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"

NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and assign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; — for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish Constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; — for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; — and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; — to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine.

George Washington

Source: The Massachusetts Centinel, Wednesday, October 14, 1789 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wes.wortman (talk • contribs) 03:07, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Black Friday
Black Friday, as described in the article that is linked to, is not referred to as such because of book keeping. I edited the statment to more acurately represent what the article contains.68.9.133.244 (talk)

A Lttle Ethno-centric
First of all, the reference to Don Adams and Teresa A. Kendrick. "Don Juan de Oñate and the First Thanksgiving" is uncalled for. Oñate was, by all but the most revisionist of historians, an offensive and cruel figure who should be left in the ash-bin of history (see Oñate’s Foot: Histories, Landscapes, and Contested Memories in the Southwest).

Second of all, while the basic Thanksgiving article has a link to "Deconstructing the Myths of 'The First Thanksgiving'", this Thanksgiving (United States) does not. A link to http://houston.indymedia.org/news/2002/11/5818.php should also be considered.

I agree with the comments about the "over the top" religiousity of this article. Both the 1637 and 1676 proclamations should prove the lack of christian values of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. On top of which you have the Quaker state murders and the expulsion of other dissidents. All in the name of a so-called "lord of the Covenant".198.97.67.59 (talk) 16:23, 1 December 2008 (UTC)