Talk:Thaumaturgy

Untitled
Blanked previous off-topic screed posted here from this page: please see history if you want to see it. -- Karada 14:59, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Most of the text of this is diappointingly non-encyclopedic and boderline NPOV. I've added a few phrases here or there to make it read more like an objective encylopedic entry and less like a magick tract. However, mostly I just felt compelled to link the reader to the related terms which were already referenced by the article and fix a couple of typos (and standarize on the spelling of Sephirah used by the main article on that topic. I'd love to see someone with a more academic background on this topic come in and clean it up more.JimD 09:28, 2005 Feb 20 (UTC)

I think you'll be sorely disappointed if you think that such esoteric subjects are to be found in neat, objective "encyclopedia" format, especially because such matters are not agreed upon. There exists a multitude of opinions regarding such topics, and it is possible to have a wide variety of apparently contradictory opinions be valid, depending on the reasoning behind them.

Regarding "neutral point of view," there comes a time when we have to leave political correctness behind us and present the matters from the viewpoint of those who practice them. Having a "NPOV" at all times only means that we are presenting a watered-down version of these traditions. For example, the emanationist system of the Hermetic Kabbalah is a central doctrine; if we are afraid to even say that the realm of Malkuth is a materialization of the potentials of Yesod, which contains the combination all previous Sefiroth, then I'm afraid that we'll do very little in presenting the rest of the doctrine as it is. Yogensha 23:41, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with JimD. If a more substantial treatment of the subject is being created, you may need to get into more esoteric matters, but for the purposes of defining the term (which seems to be what this article is for at present) I think diving too deep muddies the waters.

Example: Towards the end, there is this sentence:


 * For instance, practitioners believe that a Magician can, by making slight changes in the world of formation (Olam Yetzirah), such as within the Sephirah of Yesod upon which Malkuth (the material realm) is based and within which all former Sephiroth are brought together, then these alterations would emanate into the world of action (Olam Assiah).

This is grammatically incorrect, but also extremely difficult to read. I think it's partly because too much is being introduced in too small a space. A much clearer rendering would be:
 * For instance, practitioners believe that a Magician can, by making slight changes in the world of formation (Olam Yetzirah), create alterations that would emanate into the world of action (Olam Assiah).

This says all that needs to be said to convey the point. Unless you are going to use terms that are already well understood, or are being used in the context of a broader topic where they have already been defined, throwing in the bits about Malkuth and Sephirah of Yesod and Sephiroth coming together really doesn't add anything. --Jimdoria 21:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Jimdoria,

I agree; however, my version was grammatically correct; JimD changed it to its current version. I had written: For instance, if a Magician made slight changes in the world of formation (Olam Yetzirah), such as within the Sefirah of Yesod upon which Malkuth (the material realm) is based and within which all former Sephiroth are brought together, then these alterations would emanate into the world of action (Olam Assiah).

Yogensha 02:54, 31 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The examples are very nice, but the article itself doesn't give a clear description of what thaumaturgy is. Bringing in a not-terribly-successful attempt to distinguish it from theurgy (it fails because it ultimately can't make a clear distinction between the two) just confuses the issue further.  The article on theurgy just confuses it more.  Would it help to redo this from an historical/etymological view?  Clearly the meaning of the word has changed over time; perhaps illustrating this evolution would make the meaning clearer?  The sense I get from my reading is:


 * Theurgy is ritualistic in nature, usually taking the form of religious ceremony, and seeks to make contact with or achieve union with the Godhead (thus, the definition is more specific or restrictive in scope)
 * Thaumaturgy is usually not ritualized (but can be?) and represents one of the following:
 * miraculous works channeled from the Godhead
 * miraculous works performed independently of communication with the Godhead by a sufficiently saintly person
 * apparently miraculous works performed by an individual through the use of an otherwise undefined form of magic
 * Approaching it historically/etymologically might help show how the meaning of the two words diverged or converged or whatever it is they did. 12.22.250.4 20:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

In fiction and popular culture
I believe the section could lose some of it's parts and have a phrase like "Thaumaturgy is used in various fiction games and stories simply as a synonym for magic, or just to make up a sub-school of magic". I believe this applies to quite a few references in the section. Those who mind don&#39;t matter, and those who matter don&#39;t mind. 22:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Noting this comment from 2007, and how little has been done to address the problem noted by DukeDoom, I am going to put a moratorium on the pop culture section. Without references noting the term's proper usage (is. not just the use of the name but instead a use of the name as defined), it cannot stay. I will wait a week before removing the trivial bits from the article to here. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 16:35, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Discrepancy: Historical Usage or a Neo-Pagan's Personal View?
There is a discrepancy in this article, where the intro says Thaumaturgy is said to be non-religious by a neo-pagan named Isaac Bonewits, then the next sections deal with almost nothing but religion. Since history contradicts this neo-pagan guy, I suggest we either reword Mr. Bonewits' personal definition as an aside or remove it from this article entirely. At the very least it adds some confusion. I'm obviously no expert, but I thought I'd throw this out there for consideration. Mousenight (talk) 05:52, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Pop culture syntax overhaul?
The bulleted list format just doesn't fit the section IMO, syntax isn't my strong suit but if someone can rework it to read better that'd be great. Orchastrattor (talk) 21:02, 12 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Reworked yes, flat out delated (ie effectively nuke the section from orbit) for what at the end day is no good reason as a later editor did no. So that this section is preserved in case somebody else gets a little too wild with the delete option it  preserves in its 3 December 2019 state below.  Ideally a section that is too long should be trimmed or a talk formed on what is valid not flat out deleted.

Start In Pop Culture section

The term thaumaturgy is used in various novels and games as a synonym for magic, a particular sub-school (often mechanical) of magic, or as the "science" of magic.


 * Thaumaturgy is often used as a name for the magic in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. The word also lends itself to the "thaum", the basic unit of magical energy.
 * Thaumaturgy is defined as the "science" or "physics" of magic in RPGs such as GURPS,  novels such as China Miéville's Perdido Street Station, and real world works such as Marcus Cordey's Magical Theory and Tradition and Isaac Bonewits' 1971 Real Magic and his 2005 Authentic Thaumaturgy
 * In Lyndon Hardy's Magics trilogy, thaumaturgy is one of the five disciplines of magic. It figures most prominently in the first book, Master of the Five Magics.
 * In the roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons the thaumaturgist (sic) is a prestige class which specifically summons outsiders.
 * In White Wolf Publishing's role-playing game, Vampire: The Masquerade, Thaumaturgy is a magical Discipline encompassing the Hermetic style of blood-magic which the Tremere Clan converted from their old practices when they became vampires.
 * In the Elder Scrolls games Daggerfall and Battlespire, thaumaturgy is a character skill, which is loosely defined as "focus[ing] on manipulating known forces and objects within their natural laws".
 * In Final Fantasy XIV, thaumaturge is the title of a playable character class.
 * In Dominions 3: The Awakening, thaumaturgy is one of the paths of magic that can be researched.
 * In the 1996 Sierra MMO The Realm Online, thaumaturgy is a branch of magic specifically dealing with healing, protection, curing poisons, and summoning good-aligned allies.
 * In Jim Butcher's The Dresden Files, thaumaturgy is the creation of a magical link between an object and a person (as when using voodoo dolls).
 * In The Lunar Chronicles by Marissa Meyer, thaumaturges are the bodyguards and police force of the Lunar Queen Levana.
 * In Magic: The Gathering, many cards in the plane of Theros feature Thaumaturges, most notably the Battle Thaumaturge. In the planeswalker's guide to the setting, they are flavoured more akin to theurgists, having their magic stem from the gods.
 * In Minecraft, the player Azanor is the developer of the popular modification Thaumcraft, which brings many extensions to the game based around Thaumaturgy.
 * In Path of Exile, thaumaturgy powers the in-universe magic, and power-hungry court thaumaturgists drive the storyline.
 * In Patrick Rothfuss' trilogy, The Kingkiller Chronicle, a "Thaum" is the unit used to describe heat energy at the University.
 * In Wizard101, Thaumaturges are wizards who specialize in ice magic. These wizards specialize in tanking hits, having spells that do not deal a lot of damage, but can provide shielding spells and taunt enemies, drawing them away from more important players.
 * In Ultima VIII : Pagan, Thaumaturgy is one of the five schools of magic along with Sorcery, Necromancy, Theurgy and Tempestry. Thaumaturgy contains miscellenaous spells of usually non-elemental nature. Its practice is not tied to one of the titans.
 * In Beautiful Creatures, the book by Kami Garcia and Margaret Stohl, Ryan, a cousin of the main character's love interest, Lena, is discovered as being a Thaumaturge when she heals the main character after an accident. When asked "I'm guessing that's a fancy Caster name for healer?" Lena replies, "Something like that."
 * In The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim an alchemist in Morthal, Lani, owns an alchemy shop named The Thaumaturgist's Hut.
 * In The "Peter Grant (book series)" by "Ben Aaronovitch", the term thaumaturgical degradation is used to describe the negative physical impacts of the overuse of magic on the human brain.
 * In the Saga of the Noble Dead, thaumaturgy is one of the three disciplines of magic.
 * In The SCP Foundation mythos, Thaumaturgy is often invoked as a scientific term for ritual magics and interactions with nonphysical entities.
 * In the universe of Kinoko Nasu's TYPE-MOON visual novel series, the word "thaumaturgy" is an accepted translation for Majutsu (魔術, lit. "demon/magic skill"; or Magecraft), which is the only form of magic available to the modern practitioner. This modern magecraft is considered inferior to actual magic, which can only be used by a very select few people.
 * In The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen volume 2 Nyneve is referred to as the “rival thaumaturge” of Merlin who imprisons him in “the concealed cave in the cliffs just east of Helston”

End In Pop Culture section
 * It should be noted if a line says 'in work x' that is in itself a reference. Yes, it is not always a proper one (ie being too vague) but the statement does have a reference.  In these cases Specify is more valid label then the unreferenced section hatnote (which should ideally be limited only to section that have no references to back the statements what so ever).--174.99.238.22 (talk) 08:16, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * No, that's not how referencing works. Even if it was, if the only source for an item is the work itself, then it fails to be notable enough to mention. The importance of secondary independent coverage isn't just verifiability, it's "why is this significant enough to warrant mentioning?" Pretty much the whole list fails BOTH of those hurdles. 8.39.233.42 (talk) 11:20, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
 * That is not how Notability works. That is regarding if topic warrants its own article not if a subsection in a existing article is warranted. For that one looks to Verifiability and since Isaac Bonewits had Bachelor of Arts in Magic and Thaumaturgy from the University of California, Berkeley and he defined Thaumaturgy as 'the science of magic' meets the inclusion within an existing article criteria.  And before the self-published thing comes up Identifying and using self-published works points out "Self-published sources can be reliable, and they can be used (except for claims about living people). Sometimes, a self-published source is even the best possible source, such as when you are supporting a direct quotation. In such cases, the original document is the best source because the original document will be free of any errors or misquotations introduced by subsequent sources."--174.99.238.22 (talk) 12:13, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Excuse me for being blunt, 174.99.238.22, but this is completely wrong. The other IP is correct. Apart from the fact that all information in an article needs to be notable and relevant enough to the topic, sources can by definition not establish their own notability. The fact that Skyrim is a notable game and the fact that it features the word "Thaumaturgist" somewhere does not mean this mention of the word is notable. See also this RfC on the topic, which shows a clear consensus. Prinsgezinde (talk) 00:16, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

You are comparing apples to baseballs. Skyrim was not designed by people with an actual degree in Thaumaturgy and therefore has no relevance to the matter at hand while because Isaac Bonewits had a Bachelor of Arts in Magic and Thaumaturgy from the University of California, Berkeley which makes him an expert in the field is usable for the reasons given above.--174.99.238.22 (talk) 23:18, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

How Much Is Enough?
A 12-year old note says that the article needs more sources. However, I already see 18 references for basically 7 short paragraphs and a list.

What more is needed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 23:38, 12 October 2020 (UTC)