Talk:The Aquabats/Archive 2

Rewrite
So, I basically rewrote & restructured the whole article. It hadn't had a thorough update in what looked like almost 2 years (several references to Charge!! as "new"/"latest") so it was in need of a major review. I also redid a lot of categories to make it conform more to the format of typical band articles. Below are some of the major changes:
 * 1) Band history: The article was missing a decently detailed band history/bio so I created one. I feel it's thorough enough without overloading on unnecessary detail, but if you want to enhance it, especially with references, then by all means do.
 * 2) Discography: I redid the discography in table formats with different categories and artwork. I feel it's much better presented now.
 * 3) Mythology & Cadet sections: I redid these. Basically they either sounded promotional or were overly detailed. For example I narrowed down the lists of enemies & allies into a half dozen or so of the most notable ones contained within a paragraph about the mythology. This reads better & doesn't overburden the reader with relatively insignificant details.
 * 4) Cleaned up the talk page: I archived the old discussions at Talk:The Aquabats/Archive 1, but kept some duscussions here that are still ongoing. Remember that this is a forum for discussing the article, not general and/or random stuff about the band. Go to the band's website & join the message board for that (believe me, it's more fun). Also removed some old/outdated topics.

I'm not done updating the article quite yet; there are still some things I'm going to add such as images, etc. and I'm going to review/update all the album & member articles as well, but there are a few things I could use help with: IllaZilla 08:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Doctor Rock: Does anybody know his real name? All the other members are accounted for but his real name isn't listed in any credits that I could find, so he's kind of a loose end in the article.
 * 2) References/citations: There weren't any before, and I didn't add any now. Basically I'm a grad student who writes research papers all the time and I'm sick of referencing everything. I write for Wikipedia for fun so I don't feel a pressing need to use citations. I've been following the Aquabats since about '97 and I'm sitting here with all the albums & lots of other related materials in front of me, so I feel fairly confident that I know what I'm talking about. However if you want to enhance the article with referenced material then that sure would make it better.
 * 3) A decent band image in the infobox: It needs one! Preferrably one with the current lineup. Note: a lot of editors/admins don't like the use of promotional photos and will probably delete it if you upload one, so it would probably be much better if somebody with a good live shot would upload it to Wikimedia Commons and then put it in the article.

Oh, one other minor thing: I added album titles & links to the lineups table, to show the reader what the lineup was at the time of each release. The problem is that the table formatting reads the exclamation points in Charge!! as cell\column breaks and screws the whole thing up. I left it as is for now, but if anyone out there is really good at wiki formatting and tables and can fix this issue I would much appreciate it. IllaZilla 09:11, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, that's been fixed. Thanks Super Rad! IllaZilla 20:40, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

The Robot joined in 1996. This is illustrated when viewing the DVD, songs performed on the 2nd disc show 1996 as the year of performance with The Robot playing with them.

As the previous unsigned comment indicates, both Jimmy the Robot and Travis Barker joined the band in 1996. Travis joined in April 1996. Jimmy in May 1996. (I should know, I was there...) Bc.rox.all 19:59, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Cadet userbox?
This contradicts what I said above^ since it's not technically about the article, but is there a userbox for cadets? If not we should totally have one, and I might try to make it. IllaZilla 16:20, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I made an Aquabats userbox for myself. It's not a cadet-specific one, and it's not very cool:

I wanted to use the bat logo, but that would violate copyright... Someone that actually knows what they're doing should make one. Super Rad !  05:48, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
 * How would it violate copyright? Logos qualify as fair use. I don't think The Aquabats would care. --Lyght 00:59, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Most logos would qualify as fair use in articles describing the subject of the logo, but not for purely decorative uses like userboxes. It wouldn't fall under fair use and doubtless an admin would delete the image. However, if we used a free image from Wikimedia Commons or some piece of Aquabats imagery that's not copyrighted, then I think it would fly. IllaZilla 05:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Exclamation mark in name
I dispute that it's part of the name. Consider The Aquabats vs. the Floating Eye of Death! : if it were an integral part of the name, it would be after "Aquabats" there too. Rather, I think the more obvious explanation is just that they like exclamation marks. So in only just so happens that when the band name appears alone (such as on their official site) it is always with an exclamation mark after. &mdash; Saxifrage &#9998; 07:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * no. it's part of their name. just because its not used in one album title (out of many) is not much of a reason. other than that album it's used just about everywhere! (including albums, stickers, websites, myspace pages, etc. --GURT 07:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It appears to be a stylistic device, not part of the name. Since nowhere do they say which it is explicitly, if they're being inconsistent we get to choose. Precedent in naming articles is to go without extra punctuation and stylistic devices, since it makes the article harder to read and looks unprofessional. If it's preferred by fans, that's no reason either since Wikipedia isn't in the business of doing fanservice. Besides, nowhere else includes the exclamation in the name: look them up at Last.fm, Pandora, or Musicbrainz. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not a stylistic device. It is how the band spells their name. It appears with the exclamation point more often than not. It has nothing to do with fan-service. last.fm and pandora are not a source of definitive information and MB data changes constantly. This band has an exclamation point in their name and so do other bands with wikipedia articles. --GURT 21:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But again, they're inconsistent so we get to pick. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if we get to pick, how about we start a vote on it? I despise redirects, and I think it should stay "The Aquabats" because few people are going to type the exclamation point. --Lyght 20:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Seriously, I don't think the exclamation point needs to be there. The spelling with the exclamation point usually only shows up in their logos. I say we vote on it. --Lyght 22:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's a toss-up. On every album except the first (Return) it's written as "The Aquabats!" with the exclamation point. It's also written that way on almost all of their merchandise. So if punctuation counts as part of the name (ie. Panic! at the Disco, Fenix*TX, Against Me!) then it should be part of the name here, for consistency's sake. Personally I agree that people searching for the Aquabats aren't likely to type the exclamation point in the search criteria box, so it really makes little difference. I'm personally happy without it and I left it as just "The Aquabats" in my recent rewrite. IllaZilla 08:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Adam Diebert or Adam Deibert?
There isn't an Adam Diebert/Deibert article yet, so I'll ask this here.

I've noticed some disagreement on the spelling of "Prince Adam's" last name. In The Return ' s liner notes, it is spelled "Adam Diebert," but The Fury ' s liner notes lists him as "Adam Warren Deibert." Likewise, the Yo! Check Out This Ride EP was "Produced, Engineered and Mixed by Adam Deibert" and recorded at the "Deibert Ranch Studios." However, on Bikeride's website,, it is again spelled "Adam Diebert."

Perhaps most interesting is that IMDB lists Adam's name differently on the same page for working on Yo Gabba Gabba! He is listed for Muno's voice as Deibert and for making music as Diebert. Super Rad !  05:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I just bumped into this website: http://www.callsoundcallnoise.com/. If Adam is "Adam Deibert" on his own website, "Deibert" must be the correct spelling. Hopefully. Super Rad  !  05:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Orange County musical groups category
I created a new category, Category:Orange County musical groups, which is a subcategory of Category:California musical groups, and the Categorization guidelines say, "Articles should not usually be in both a category and its subcategory." It also says, "For example Golden Gate Bridge is in Category:Suspension bridges, so it should not also be in Category:Bridges." Since suspension bridges are a subdivision of bridges, and Orange County is a subdivision of California, The Aquabats should be part of the Orange County musical groups category, not the California musical groups category. User:IllaZilla re-added the California category after I replaced it with the Orange County one, but I reverted it, and then IllaZilla reverted my edit. I am going to revert it once more because I am trying to follow Wikipedia guidelines. Please do not change it again. It's an edit war and I don't want to get scolded for it and wind up getting the article locked. --Lyght 06:30, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand what you're saying, and I understand the reason for it. I don't mean to start an edit conflict. My point is that the "Orange County" subcategory may not be the most correct one to use here. The band originated in Huntington Beach, which would be a further and more specific subcategory from Orange County (as HB is a specific city within OC). However, as the band's lineup has changed over the years, their geographic categorization changes too. "Orange County" I think would describe about the middle of their career, as most of the members in that period were from various cities in Orange County and other counties in southern California. However I believe they are now based in San Diego, which is both a different county and city, but several of the members live in other parts of southern California (Ricky, for example, is originally from Riverside, yet another city and county). So if you want to be specific then "Huntington Beach" would be their point of origin, but "California" or "southern California" would be a more appropriate categorization for their current status. In either case I feel that "Orange County" is not the correct choice. Also, 2 minor reverts and a category disagreement are nowhere near enough to constitute an edit war or get the article locked. We can easily settle the disagreement here. IllaZilla 06:52, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no Huntington Beach musical groups category, and I don't think there are enough musical groups from Huntington Beach with a Wikipedia article to necessitate a Huntington Beach musical groups category. The category for San Diego and Los Angeles musical groups contain musical groups throughout their own respective counties. And the musical groups category is meant for wherever the band formed. I understand that you want to include all the members' hometowns, but you can't, for example, say The Aquabats are an Idaho musical group just because Christian Jacobs is from Idaho. --Lyght 19:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I concede to you on this one. While I wasn't suggesting including all the members' hometowns, I was trying to keep it to the specific city where the band originated. But as you say, if there is no category for Huntington Beach artists then I'd rather have it link somewhere useful like Orange County, which is close enough. IllaZilla 17:34, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

External Links Removed During Rewrite
Some of the external links were removed during the rewrite. One of which, http://aquabats.superbad.net/, was one of them. I am adding it back to the article. If you feel compelled to remove the link please discuss here. Gh5046 11:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed it again as per WP:EL. When it comes to bands, only official sites should be linked. An exception would be for sites which contain pertinent and attributable information that is not available on official sites, which superbad.net does not. It is a fan site, and such sites are likely to contain unreferenced and unreliable information as well as violations of copyright. The general consensus among contributors at WikiProject Musicians and WikiProject Albums is that only official sites of the band and their record label(s) should be linked, as they are the most reliable sources of information. If no official site exists, then there may be some consensus that an informative and well-referenced fan site may be useful to link, but that is not the case here. IllaZilla 17:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah. That site is full of copyvio. Lyrics, mp3s, images, etc. Not that ALL of it is copyvio or that such media necessarily disqualifies it, but there's nothing notable on the site that provides reputable information on the band beyond what's already in the article or on the band's official site. IllaZilla 20:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm content with the first explanation you posted, although I disagree with the stance those WikiProjects have taken. As to part of your second point I sought and obtained approval to host the content when the site was initially created.
 * Regardless, I will let it rest.   Gh5046 23:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Line breaks after Lineups table
A while back I added in the table under "Band members" that lists all the band's lineups. I think it's informative & I've since added it to all my band articles, but there's a technical issue: in order to keep the discography, which follows this section, from getting squished over to the left side, I have to insert a lot of line breaks after the "Past members" section. The problem is that in different browsers, screens, and settings, the elements of the page can be different sizes, so it doesn't always work for everyone and people either need to add more breaks or sometimes will take them out. Does anyone who's good with tables know if there's a way to force the Discography to start below the Lineups table, without the need for a bunch of line breaks? Thank you. IllaZilla 15:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * On the "The Aquabats lineups" table remove the float parameter from the style settings.
 * If you want to keep the Current & Past Members information to the left put all the data into one big table on a single row, but have "Current members" and "Past members" in the left cell and "The Aquabats lineups" in the right cell . (underlining added for clarification, not to give weight) Gh5046 16:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Figured it out. Just add

after the last text in the section (in this case after the list of Past Members) to cause a break to a new section. --IllaZilla 17:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Edits August 23, 2007
I made some edits today that were too numerous to list in the edit summary, so here they are: --IllaZilla 16:32, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Converted the reference for Gabe Palmer being Dr. Rock into the proper format & added a reference section. Took out internal links redirecting Palmer's name to Innway & instead added a parenthesis to the sentence stating that he left the band, mentioning that he later joined Innaway. It previously said that he was "recruited by" Innaway, but I don't think that's accurate as he left The Aquabats in 2000 and the Innaway article says that band started in 2001.
 * Condensed information in the "recent activity" section to bring it up-to-date.
 * Took the band logo out of the infobox. I did this because the logo was uploaded under a false license tag and does not meet Wikipedia's criteria for fair use images. Anyway, it's not The Aquabats' "logo" but rather just the lettering used on the Charge!! cover. This is a problem in many band articles: Logos do not belong in infoboxes. They can be put somewhere in articles, but in order to meet fair use criteria there must be a discussion of the logo itself within the article. 99% of the time that is not the case, and it certainly wasn't the case here.
 * Changed some of the names in the Lineups table to accurately reflect the members' stage names as listed in each album (mainly Chainsaw, whose name has been listed differently on every release).

Genres
Why were Grindcore and Afro-Beat removed from their genres? The Aquabats list themselves as that on their Myspace page! Ash Loomis (talk) 23:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Clearly they are joking on their Myspace. Have you ever listened to the Aquabats? I challenge you to find anything remotely resembling "grindcore" or "afro-beat" in any one of their songs. If you are familiar at all with the band, then you know they often use humor and satire, even aimed at themselves. Clearly they are just being funny on Myspace. PS: On talk pages new subjects should start at the bottom. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok then, I love the Aquabats but I've never listened to Grindcore. From the Afro-beat I've heard though I can hear some influence in a few of the songs. I just assumed they were being serious about the genres. Ash Loomis (talk) 01:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait, you used 'Aquabats' and 'serious' in the same sentence. Are you crazy?! ;-D  Malinaccier (talk • contribs) 01:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

While we're discussing genre, does anyone want to give me the reasoning for including them in the ska-punk musicians category, and putting Pop-Punk in their genres? The closet they've even gotten to punk is New Wave and their ska stuff sounds like just plain old ska to me. I'm aware they have a punk influence, but they lack the punk attitude and the hardness that's in punk. Even most Pop-Punk is harder than the Aquabats ever were. I think the only reason they're associated with punk is because they've mentioned enjoying old school punk rock in interviews and that they were playing ska at a time when virtually all the other ska being played was ska-punk. I think we should remove them from the category and get rid of the Pop-Punk genre. New Wave is enough as far as their punk influence goes. Ash Loomis (talk) 03:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think if Operation Ivy (band) can fit in the ska-punk genre, then so can The Aquabats. Just because they don't fit your requirement of being 'hard' (however you might define it) doesn't mean they're not punk. I also take exception to your comments about a lack of punk attitude, as they obviously have a strong DIY ethic. Then again, edit as you see fit. I'm really relucant to touch genres at all in articles, since they almost always result in really lame edit wars. Zytsef (talk) 04:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually don't think that Operation Ivy is ska-punk either, but I won't get into that on an Aquabats talk page. Now that I think about it, you're probably right as far as punk attitude goes. Since they wear unconventional outfits to punk shows and try their best to go in the opposite directions of the trends as well as mock them, they're probably punkier in terms of attitude than most modern punk bands. However, I think modern punk is more about musical style than attitude. In terms of musical style when I say "hard" I mean nasal, gruff, or shouted vocals, and the use of loud instruments in an aggressive manner. I don't hear that in the Aquabats at all. If anyone would like to point out the punk characteristics in their songs to me I'm happy to listen. Ash Loomis (talk) 23:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Captain Croxall/Popeye/John Pantle
These names were recently added to the "former members" list. I had a Wikipedia/email conversation a while back with someone claiming to be Capt. Croxall, and it was established that reliable third-party sources would need to be provided to prove the membership of any member not listed in one of the albums. Otherwise anyone could stick their name into the list and claim to have been in the band. I realize that the Aquabats went through a lot of members in their early years, and not all of them are documented. But to be fair we have to limit the list in the article to people who it can be proven were in the band. The references currently supplied to support these names do not hold up (the closest is the one that links to the news post, but the wording in the post itself is vague and could even be a joke). The other references consist of posts on the Aquabats message board and a linked resumé, and I think it's likely that one or both of those were written by the editor who added them in. I would like to point out that these are not reliable sources, especially if you wrote them yourself. Wikipedia requires reliable third-party sources to support information. Before I remove the names again, I want to open it up to discussion. Does anyone else know anything about these or other previous members, or can you provide better sources? --IllaZilla (talk) 10:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * IllaZilla, I understand your concern, and your commitment to factual support for claims, and for this reason, I am trying to find evidences you would consider more reliable. While I haven't created a profile on Wikipedia yet, I am the same guy who added Gabe Palmer's name and info as Doctor Rock. I am not Popeye, but I did meet him here in Salt Lake City during that tour when he was the guitar player. I also met Macaroni the New Columbus when he was the touring guitarist likewise. This is why I am working to try and find info about both of them. I have been searching, and will continue to do so, in the Wayback machine for news posts about each of those guys, because I know that the band did make announcements about them. Additionally, I am not Captain Croxall or John Pantle; if you are looking to link my identity, I am fighter_kyu on The Aquabats Forum, and I have been a fan of the band for 12 years now. I would like to see more representation of the first band members (pre-Return), and so I am trying to gather any information available about them; I'll see if The Pigbat (aka Tyler Jacobs) can offer anything, since he knows that early period better than anyone (except the band, of course). In the meantime, while I understand your devotion to supporting evidence, I ask that you consider my sources valid, as the very nature of this band's history and lack of notoriety makes documenting historical claims difficult. - "Fighter Kyu", 11:23 MST 11 December 2007

I agree the nature of the band makes an accurate history difficult, and I definitely appreciate your efforts to make the article more complete and accurate. If you find anything good in the old news posts about other members, that will work just fine. It's mainly the message board/resumé stuff that don't work as sources. If there are a lot of touring members that show up, maybe we could list them in a separate section below "previous members" (creating a "touring members" list). And I definitely appreciate you adding Gabe Palmer's name. I was scratching my head for a long while trying to figure that one out. I'll do some searching myself when I have more time and see if I can help dig up some more info on these guys. --IllaZilla (talk) 21:27, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your consideration; I finally broke down and created a profile - fighter_kyu. Surprise, surprise. I hope to be able to positively contribute to this article in the future. I like your idea of a "touring members" list - would this list require less stringent tests for verification? I don't want to open the floodgates to any fan becoming a band member, but until I can crack the nut of finding information, locking the list down would prove counter-productive. At any rate, I'll try to contact Tyler as soon as I'm able to find out what information or resources he can offer.--Fighter kyu (talk) 21:43, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

We could do it like the "notable fill-ins" section in The Vandals. It lists the most notable guys with citations for verification. --IllaZilla (talk) 00:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)