Talk:The Australian Pink Floyd Show/Archive 2

Tribute hub vs tapfs fan sites
A recent change changed the tribute hub website to tapfs.com. I gave it a browse, and while at first it looks like a brand new site, it seems to have a lot of cleanly presented information. Any thoughts or comments? -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  13:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Floydian-tapfs.com is the new name for tributehub.com.The same site less sections for other tributes bands.It's back to being a forum/site for TAPFS only.It's run by the same people who ran tributehub.com and notaussiefloyd.com before it. It's very well informed and band members of the band do pop on and post from time to time.

Ian Cattell
Im sorry i am new to this and i just am not to computer savvy. so forgive me for only being able to start a new topic.

Ian Cattell has been an imperative part of the band. practically fronting the band during the 2008 and beginning of the 2009 tour dates with playing pink in the wall. Ian is a major player in this band and plays bass in the uk and europe as well since colin has been taking more and more time off. Colin is a great player and does play in europe a bit more consistently in europe and i understand that but i do like the changes made to not put the outside europe and europe by the names. i really do like that that has been removed. as per the controversy surrounding Ian's webpage link. i really feel it should be listed. i have seen that it does cover stuff on the aussiefloyd.com site but it also makes it a bit more personal as well to have his official webpage linked. as per other members having webpages i am not sure. i know that damian darlington is also doing a side project called acoustic unlimited but they only have a myspace page. colin wilson along with paul bonney also have a band called el vato. these musicians are all multi talented and if they have a personal page it should be added. it gives them that much more publicity. they deserve it they work very hard. so please i am asking can you add Ian Cattell's personal webpage back to this site. it would be greatly appreciated. (Lmr3280 (talk) 00:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC))


 * [|See discussion above]. The consensus was to not include any band member site, and only include the main band website. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  00:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

can we please re visit this topic. can we run a new consensus or have some more input from other members of this particular site. the reason is again not all the band members have personal sites. for the ones that do we should be able to add them. especially if they are core members. Ian is a core member, yes a hired gun but still front runner in the band. (Lmr3280 (talk) 02:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC))
 * If the wikipedia was a directory or an advertising service then I would certainly agree with you. I am sure that it would be good publicity not only for Ian but for Colin and Damian and Paul Bonney etc if there were links to various sites connected with themselves and other projects. However {WP:Wikipedia is not) an advertising service, it is not a directory and one has to decide what is appropriate for an article that is essentially about TAPFS rather than the individuals that are involved with it. One could make a case to include Arran Ahmun's contact details considering he has worked with many noted names in the music biz, and to Jamie Humphries since he's a noted guitarist in his own right. However Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and 'personal touches' aren't appropriate. The details of personal websites can be accessed via the webistes already listed. Maybe a note could be added to the external links section mentioning that fact. Besides, I.C has had plenty of advertising on this discussion page anyway --Godfinger (talk) 07:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I completely echo Godfingers words here "Wikipedia is NOT an advertising service". Cattell's personal webpage is just that-Personal.Yes it has some videos/photos etc.However there is nothing on that page that can't be found on the bands main website. Cattell's site is just for him,and is even offering his services to do other gigs and session work etc as a hired musician. Further Ian has only played a small handful of shows on bass in Europe.This was because band member Wilson decided to take the night off etc. Wilson is the bands European bass player.I believe this has now been addressed in the prose and feel that's how it should remain. Secondly-Ian Cattell is NOT a band member or core member,he's a hired musician/vocalist and hired on a tour by tour contractual basis.There are only 4 band/core members who decide who plays/stays with the band and have a say in set lists and other management procedures.Cattell is paid to show up and play and nothing more..Ian is not fronting the band-the key word here is that The Australian Pink Floyd show are a -show- made up of many people,and no one person is bigger than the show.This wikipedia page is about the band on a whole and not a place for individuals webpages for their side work away with the band etc. I also agree with Godfinger and say that Cattell has had plenty of advertising here already.This topic was discussed previously and it was decided that his site offered nothing new or different to the main band page.The main reason the link is not added is that it's against wikipedia policy to add a lot of unnecessary links cluttering up the well written page. If any band that's linked to the Australian Pink Floyd Show ( El Vato-Acoustic Unlimited etc) want their own wikipedia pages,or people to create them,then there's nothing stopping them.However this wikipedia page is about the BAND TAPFS(Tapgsozfan (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC))


 * The relevant guidelines insist on minimizing the number of links. Linking every band member's website, even if only some of them currently have a website, is not exactly the "minimum".  If this page were about Ian Cattell himself, then I'd wholeheartedly support this link -- but it's not, and so I don't.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, Ian's website is already linked from the band's official site. It's not our place to duplicate every link from that site. If you or Ian thinks he should have higher visibility on the official site, take it up with the band. UncleDouggie (talk) 07:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed I.C is linked from the main site. This is because only band members (including the long standing Paul Bonney) actually have their own 'Bio' pages linked to the official site-These are the only members you can contact directly from the official site to ask questions about the band and themselves etc.The touring members don't have a Bio.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 11:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC))

Is Ian Cattell a band member

 * We need to get this settled out so the wording can reflect it. Is Ian a publicized member of APFS, or is he only a touring member who takes no part in the core band? Need a source for this one. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  17:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

(From Floydian's talk page, moved here) Floydian

I Recently revised a change made by an IP address to include the fact that Cattell plays bass outside of Europe and Wilson within Europe.Then noted you had edited below and mentioned that this should be added somewhere within the text. However I personally think it is better addressed in the 'band members' section for reasons that include it makes it clearer to ticket buyers as to who they're going to see play bass etc. Thoughts?? regards 'Tapgsozfan (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)'


 * While I agree that is good information, its doubtful people will be looking at the article to see which band members are playing. More often than not, those going to see APFS would either not have seen them (And not know each member), or would have seen them already. The likelyhood of someone seeing them in North America, then in Europe (Only to be disappointed that the bassist and vocalists have switched) is pretty slim to nil. Moreover, I'd like to try and raise the article up to at least GA status, and I think information placed in that manner would have to be removed at that checkpoint. It could be incorporated into the band members section (Which should have a short introductory text before the lists, explaining what those lists mean). -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  17:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Floydian-I'd also love to see this article raised to that standard. I can though say that there are a number of fans of the band who do travel cross continent to see this band.There was quite a stir when Humphries replaced Steve Mac and also when Cattell replaced Wilson (all this info can be read in historic posts on www.tapfs.com). Though personally I believe the introduction you have added covers this ambiguity. If you want an absolute accurate 'band member' list there are in fact only 4 band members who also are the owners of the band, with the fifth share belonging to the head of CMP management.The rest of the entire stage cast consist of musicians/vocalists hired on a tour by tour contractual basis.Hope this helps (Tapgsozfan (talk) 17:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC))


 * The article should reflect this. If there are only 4, they should be listed in the prose, and the section at the end should only include the list of touring members. Do you have a non-fan-site source we can use that says this and stuff such as what years they've played with the band? -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  17:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit Which are the four that are in theactual band so I can make the changes? -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  17:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Floydian-The 4 'actual' core band members/owners of the band are- Steve McElroy (1988-present) Jason Sawford ( 1988-present) Colin WIlson (1993-present) and Damian Darlington (1994-present) these are the joint owners who decide what happens with the band,the set lists etc and also decide which other musicians/vocalists are hired.CMP the bands management company fronted by Chas Cole has the 5th share in the ownership/running of the band.Paul Bonney is the next longest participant of the band,though is not an owner (1998-present) Other than the 4 core members everyone else is hired on a tour by tour basis.Whether you want this information within the article all depends on how minute with details you wish it to be. or how you want the information presented. I or others have never altered what is headed as 'band members' or the people within.I think really as a list of 'band members' it should remain as is,mainly for the fact that Ian Cattell and Carl Brunsdon have recently done both the European and North American dates. They just take on different roles depending which continent they are in.Ian Cattell is contracted to do vocals only in Europe,however he steps in on bass when Colin Wilson takes a show break for example in Europe. Carl Brunsdon took on some bass duties himself in North America during 'The Wall' tour,this was not necessary once Colin WIlson was back in Europe. This band is more complicated than most with the addition of musicians, and the different roles they take on therein. It's for that reason I think the 'band members' section should be left as is, with the addition of the information about 'core members/owners' of the band added to the prose perhaps?(Tapgsozfan (talk) 19:14, 18 September 2009 (UTC))


 * If you take a look at the article on Pink Floyd, the band members are mentioned in the first sentence, and not in their own section. Or perhaps the table like on the article for Yes would be a better option? Also, whether just the 4 core members (and mention of the other owner) are listed as band members depends whether there is a WP:RS available claiming this (even an official website (first party publication, normally shunned) for the band, rather than a fan site, which is not a reliable source). -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  07:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Had a look at those articles. Not sure I think either are appropriate for this band,purely based on the turnover of personal within on such a regular basis.If I had to go with one,then It would be the written one as In the Pink Floyd page.Perhaps a list of the 4 owners/band members,plus a section for additional touring members.With a mention for Chas Cole the 5th co owner of the band would be more appropriate?My information is not from any fan site,and I don't think, as far as I know,this information is listed on such.I do have an interest in this band,but of course that wouldn't be enough to substantiate my facts.Further thoughts Floydian?(Tapgsozfan (talk) 18:51, 19 September 2009 (UTC))


 * EDIT* After re-reading this discussion I think you came up with the best idea yourself Floydian - ""The article should reflect this. If there are only 4, they should be listed in the prose, and the section at the end should only include the list of touring members"" I can provide all the information you need of members past/present and this would not be obtained from fan sites etc.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 18:55, 19 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Where is it you get the info from? It may just be a reliable source. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  τ ¢  21:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

My info is from being close to this band.I know this first hand.That's why I can't substantiate this with any articles written on a website etc.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 00:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC))
 * Some of this information can be gleaned from the official website's 'history' and 'FAQ' sections such as the mention of Chas Cole's involvement and Steve Mac's / Colin Wilson's 'management role'. Unfortunately the details are not sufficiently detailed on the website to back up every single claim in the posts here.--Godfinger (talk) 01:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Does the official website verify the claims that only 5 people have invested interest in the band? Unfortunately, we need that before the other members can be dismissed as session musicians. If the band were to publicly announce this in an interview, or on their website, we could put it to use. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  01:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The official website in the History section holds a few facts such as Steve Mac's and Colin Wilson's management role as Godfinger stated.It also when read as a whole shows how long the members/co-owners have been involved with the band and that Cattell only replaced Colin on North American tours because Colin had a break to deal with management issues.It's pretty much what i said before,that what I said cannot be fully substantiated.I would like to see the prose stating the founding/current members/co-owners of the band with touring members listed below.I believe Godfinger knows these facts to be true from other discussions regarding the band on talk pages etc also saying he has inside knowledge,It's just unfortunately there's nothing on the web to state this.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC))

ok i am now figuring this out. yes Ian Cattell is a band member. he is not an owner of the band. i see that tapgsozfan said there are 5 owners. that is true and the 5 listed are correct. however just curious why should it be listed who the specific owners are? each member regardless of whether being a so called hired gun or and owner is a vital member. the girls for instance have changed in the past but no big stink is being made over them. they are yes back up singers but very imperative to the band. without them the show would not be as inviting. therefor I for one do like how the list is currently presented. however some commas need to be added between the dates and i will attempt to do that. Ian Cattell does fill in on the european leg of the tour with bass at times when Colin is on a break. He deserves just as much credit. I also feel that his personal webpage www.iancattell.net should be added as a link. it is an official page and updated on a regular basis. also there are fans out there who will benefit by these links. i am not saying lets add every myspace and facebook page. the ones currently listed do seem to be enough as the myspace page is managed by a band member. if other members choose not to have a personal webpage that is their choice, but for the ones who do have a personal page they should not be disregarded. I know i am not alone on this feeling. maybe to make everyone feel better you can place a link to cmp as well www.cmpentertainment.com. thank you (Lmr3280 (talk) 00:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC))


 * The difference is that a band member shares profit and losses on tour. A sessionist is payed for the session. It is this crucial detail that would determine the 'members' from the 'touring musicians'. Rick Wright was a member of Pink Floyd, but not during the latter half of the Wall, when he was a touring member of the band. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  00:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

ok i understand what you mean by the profit and losses, however with most of the owners/members are not touring full time with the band except for Damian Darlington. so therefore thats why i dont see it relevant because he is the only owner who tours full time the others only tour europe and not even colin tours all of europe. i am not trying to cause an argument over this i was just stating a fact and opinion as well. also floydian i tried to email you and could not figure that out. can you shoot me a message please. (Lmr3280 (talk) 02:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Its certainly a confusing and odd situation, and we're working towards making things right. I don't generally respond off wikipedia, so just leave a message on my talk page. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  06:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Whether the band members perform in every show/tour is completely irrelevant.Jason Sawford,Steve Mac,Colin Wilson and Damian Darlington are the only band members who share in the profit/loss. It matters on the pay packet as to how many people are in the arena,how many buy merchandise etc. Chas Cole also shares in these profits but is a non playing member..The other thing to note is,that while Jason,Colin and Steve are not currently playing in the US tour,they are indeed collecting revenue and a wage from the band whilst not on stage.All the non mentioned musicians only get paid if they are contracted to play and play no role in any decisions regarding the band.That's the difference between being a band member of TAPFS or just a touring member of the band.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 18:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Reliable Source
 * The APF -- composed of Wilson, drummer Paul Bonnie, keyboardist Jason Sawford and guitarists Damian Darlington and Steve Mac -- formed in 1988 in Adelaide, South Australia.
 * Will do a rewrite of the whole band member section tomorrow and fix up this mess. Thanks for the info Tapgsozfan -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  08:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

No problem Floydian-Just to note that it's well worth you reading the 'History' section on the official band site- www.aussiefloyd.com- Here you'll see just who formed the band, and how it's progressed into touring musicians taking part as band members need to take a break,mainly because the band's popularity has increased so much there is additional need for members to concentrate on management matters behind the scenes. Also,for some reason they spelt Paul's name wrong. It's actually 'Bonney' and not as above.If you need any other info that I can hunt down to be verified from a reliable source, then just message me on my talk page.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 11:09, 23 September 2009 (UTC))
 * I just noticed you hadn't listed Bonney in the 4 members... But I'm finding him listed at practically every source. The same is not true of the other players, including Cattell, who only ever gets short mention as a replacement for Wilson. I went on the bands website and sent a question to them asking them to clarify it on their website, which currently does not mention anything about the 4 members having total ownership. This is a biography, and to put information like that in which essentially slams the touring members is gonna require some sourcing. For now, Bonney will be a band member and not a touring musician. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  15:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Bonney Isn't a band member who shares in profit/loss of the band. However, I believe it's fitting for him to be listed as more than just a 'touring muscian' He's been with the band for many years (1998 I believe). I only referenced you to the history page as it dates when people came/left the band and who formed it etc- to help clear this ambiguity up.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 16:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Changes made. If you know the various years each sessionist has been active in the band, add it, because only a few of them currently have years listed. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  16:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Consider it done! Further-let me know if you'd like a fuller list of previous musicians/vocalists with the band,including founder members,complete with years etc.This cann all be substantiated from the official site.I do feel it would benefit to list the founding members of the band who no longer are involved.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 17:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC))

You were also asking for a better band photo. I've added this to the 'Now that we're unlocked' thread where you mentioned this.(Tapgsozfan (talk) 18:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Awesome. Any former members are also worth mentioning in their own subsection, especially other founder members. Does Australian English use the British "founder" or the American "founding"? -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  20:07, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

They use the english 'founder'. I can add a variety of past musicians/vocalists including founder band members. I think a section for founder members, but also splitting the 'touring muscians' section into a present and past category would be better? These can all be verified through a reliable source.Thoughts.....? If you agree, then if you add the sections how you want them presented/headed, then i can fill them in with the details if you wish Floydian? (edit)-Though I do think they'd be better laid out like in the official site.I know it was decided against listing what each musician plays and when,however it doesn't give the facts as is, I.C toured with the band in 2005 in N&S america only, he didn't take on any UK/EU vocals until 2007.Plus it seems odd mentioning the I.C/C.W switch and, for example, not saying the same about Steve Mac with J.H or B.H in the same sentence-It just muddies the waters for me and makes for complicated reading.I'd prefer for the list to be as accurate as possible.Tapgsozfan (talk) 20:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC))


 * Presumably if we wanted to include more information than the touring years, it should be presented as prose rather than as a list. I think the touring members should be split by europe vs north america as well, as it sort of clutters things. -  ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  <sup style="color:#3AAA3A;">τ <sub style="color:#3AAA3A;">¢  07:05, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Not sure splitting into N.America and EU/Uk would be a good idea. There's a lot of musicians/vocalists do all the tours. Might confuse things? I was thinking along the line of adding to the members by the side of their name where the years from-present etc.?(Tapgsozfan (talk) 15:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC))