Talk:The Battle of Evermore

Um, Music, anyone?
It is an absolute disgrace that 3/4 of this article is about f**king Tolkien. Interpretation is part of a good article, sure, but music criticism should actually discuss, you know, music.


 * I agree completely. I added the Cold War stuff, but am no musicologist or critic, so please add something.  Looking forward to it! Malnova 08:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've removed all of the tokien cruft - it is taken from the linked page, which remains in place. --Tagishsimon (talk)

Cold War
I heard that this song is actually a metaphor of the Cold War-"The tyrants face is red. The sky is full of good and bad, mortals never know."


 * I used to be in love with this song and always just assumed it was a song about nuclear war sung as an epic fairy tale. The line "the pain of war cannot exceed the woe of aftermath" comes to mind.  Coming here and reading I was amazed to find no mention of the Cold War/Nuclear Aftermath interpretation.  Could just be me though. Malnova 10:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

plow or bow
Someone changed the first line of the song from to "the queen of light took her BOW" to the "took her PLOW". I think the line is actually the original BOW. I looked it up on my CD, but the lyrics for Evermore aren't listed. Googling if comes up with a quite significantly larger number of hits for "took her bow", but that is not saying it is definitely right of course. It's not that big of an issue for me to change it back. What's anybody else think? Malnova 09:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I was actually wondering that myself. It would not make sence if he said plow because she is a queen and queens usually don't work in the fields. But the way he says bow sounds like plow. It is muffled but it sure as hell doesn't sound like bow.


 * http://www.angelfire.com/nm/zeppelin/b.html
 * Great place


 * I think the word "Bow" here doesn't refer to the action of bowing down but instead refers to a bow used in archery. The archer's "Bow" is also pronounced as the bow in "bowing down" in the song Won't Get Fooled Again by The Who


 * "I'll take a bow for the new revolution"


 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp6-wG5LLqE at 1:20


 * AznWarlord (talk) 20:24, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Why it is "Bow"

 * "The Queen of Light, took her bow, and then she turned to go." The last thing an actor does before he/she leaves the stage for good is bow.  The elves, at the time of The War of the Ring, were fading in power and importance from Middle Earth.  Some of them stayed to fight Sauron, but may left the continent to join the Valar (gods) in what could be effectively called heaven.  The elves, being immortal beings (except when cut to pieces) had an invitation to join the gods that men, hobbits, dwarves and other races did not receive.  In the midnight meeting with Frodo in Lothlorien, Galadriel (who is the Queen of the Lothlorien elves) is tempted to take the One Ring when Frodo offers it to her.  She has a vision that she would become an evil queen, and so rejects the One Ring.

''You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night!...She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunked: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad. "I pass the test," she said. "I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."'' -The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 7, The Mirror of Galadriel.


 * Frodo is initially disheartened at this, but then accepts his fate as the Ring-bearer. "The prince of peace, embraced the gloom, and walked the night alone." After trying to give away the ring to both Gandalf and Galadriel, Frodo finally accepts that the task of destroying the ring is his alone.  Boromir counsels and pleads with him to take the ring to Minas Tirith, to use it in battle against Sauron's forces.  However the counsel of Elrond agreed that the ring should be brought back to Mt. Doom, where it was made, and destroyed there.  The song mentions "bring it back" many times.  "Magic runes, writ in gold, to bring the balance back...bring it back!"  The One Ring was golden, inscribed with runes.Tsarevna (talk) 13:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Avalon
"Curiously, though, there is no mention of Avalon in any of Tolkien's works." That's not actually true, read the Silmarillion and there is an island known as Avallone, don't remember more about it and don't have access to my book so can't look it up, but Tolkien does indeed mention Avalon (with a different spelling). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.214.117.28 (talk • contribs) 11:47, 27 June 2006

In Tolkien's work "The Silmarillion" Avalonne was the elven haven in the blessed realm, in effect the entrence to Tolkien's version of heaven. This may be what Avalon refers to in The Battle of Evermore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.23 (talk) 16:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

The problem with this interpretation is that The Silmarillion was not released until 1977 and this song was written in 1971. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.116.39.103 (talk • contribs) 19:24, 6 February 2007


 * Very true, and although Tolkien experts were aware of certain aspects of The Silmarillion prior to 1977, the word Avallonë was not published in any of his works until 1977. So I have removed the reference to it in this article. &mdash; Lawrence King ( talk ) 07:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien
The page states that the song heavily references Tolkien. Does it? What parts of the song reference what parts of Tolkien? Edelmand 15:14, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Seconding this request. I think people assume this song is all about Tolkien because they mention ringwraiths in the lyrics and it sounds vaguely fantasy-oriented.  Zeppelin makes use of Tolkien's imagery in several of their lyrics (e.g. in Ramble On and Misty Mountain Hop) but that in no way means any of their songs are ABOUT Tolkien, Lord of the Rings, Frodo or anything else.  The song also mentions Avalon for instance.. does this mean it "heavily references" Arthurian legend? 64.252.167.134 05:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

No. The Avallone reference is above. There are specific refs to Tolkien's work in the song. Allusiion mostly, which means speculation, but he doesn't say Avalon (compare the accent of Avalon to Ride On. They don't rhyme, had it been Avalon, it should.  Ignoring Tolkien's or Spence's influences altogether is a mistake, IMHO.

71.127.177.254 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The song contains an obvious Tolkien reference, though I guess it's possible to disagree about the overall weight of the Tolkien influence, though the influence itself is undeniable.LedRush (talk) 15:54, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Reasons for the Reversion
The Tolkien references belong in the article, and do not represent original research. The Tolkien reference interpretation is found widely in the J.R.R fan community. Once mentioned, the references become obvious to any person who has read The Lord of the Rings. (Because the Peter Jackson films follow the original story so closely, even film fans can understand the references.) For this reason, I have re-inserted the deleted portion of the article. I can understand why a person would think this could be original research, but in fact it is the widely-accepted view of a fan-base of millions. Furthermore, quotations from The Lord of the Rings could validate all of the references listed here, but it would clutter the article. The fact that the characters are linked to other wiki articles about them validates the reference. For example, a piece of the song lyric from "Ramble On" follows as "in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair...but Gollum, the evil one, crept up and slipped away with her..." Click on the links to Mordor and Gollum, and there can be no doubt that Led Zeppelin references Tolkien's works. Tsarevna (talk) 12:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * To demonstrate that it is not original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and that directly support the information as it is presented. No such sources are currently cited. Edelmand (talk) 12:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No citations have been provided so I have removed the information. Edelmand (talk) 00:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * When an article needs citations, you mark it with the "citation needed" tag. That way, subsequent viewers of the article can go add them if they know a source. This is especially true in a case where statements within the article have merit.  If you are uneducated about the subject, and unable to judge merit, you should get educated or leave the article alone.  Song lyric meanings are by their very nature hard to prove, and the people who could add citations might be celebrities or music producers, members of the press etc; people very hard to track down.  Such people who could lend credence to, or disprove what the public widely interprets a lyric to mean should be given the chance to SEE what the public believes, (as expressed in the deleted content,) then make their case.
 * Blanket deletion of 1/2 of an article is suspicious behavior. There are entire articles on the wiki that completely lack citations, yet they get tags instead of deletion.  One is supposed to be impartial when editing or writing an article, if you know something to be 100% absolutely, verifiably untrue, delete it.  Statements like "chickens typically have three legs."  If not, the appropriate action is to mark it with tags.  Tsarevna (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

When an article contains original research, you add the "original research tag". This is what I did, but after almost two months no citations whatsoever were provided to support the information. Two months is plenty of time for someone to "make their case". That is why the information was removed. Edelmand (talk) 13:25, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Ending the Tolkien debate
I see there has been some drama regarding this subject. While there may have been too much reference to the connection between The Battle of Evermore and Tolkien, it is a big mistake to omit it completely. The one thing that I really want to emphasize is if you haven't read the book, don't try to deny the connection. The main reason I say this is the reference is the book. I highly doubt people who have read the book can deny (they may not agree with it, but they can't deny the thought has merit) the link may be there. I have read the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and Lord of the Rings, and, while I don't claim to be 100% accurate, I think I have a quite accurate view on this. Unlike most people who draw the parallel between LotR and The Battle of Evermore, I think Evermore shows a stronger connection to the Battle of Helms Deep than it does with the Battle of the Pelennor Fields. Here is my interpretation (Lyrics obtained from SongMeanings.net, which I am pretty sure are accurate): The Queen of Light took her bow And then she turned to go Refers to Galadriel. Tsarevna has an interpretation of this above (I feel it is a good interpretation, however, I disagree on a couple points) which explains this part well. The Prince of Peace embraced the gloom And walked the night alone This bit is talking about Aragorn. He is the heir to the throne of Gondor, and a person who is meant to become king, but has not yet taken over leadership is a prince. The rest of this part either refers to him embracing his fate to lead Gondor and leaving Arwen to go into the West or taking the Paths of the Dead. In the case of the former, Aragorn says that the only one he can love is Arwen (I don't remember exactly how he says it, but I know he does), which means by parting with Arwen, he is alone (when looked at in a romantic sense, obviously). A lot of reference is made in the Silmarillion to the light of Valinor and the darkness of Middle Earth (which can be described as day and night). If Arwen were to leave Middle Earth as planned, she would essentially be leaving Aragorn alone in the night (Yeah, that's a weird way of saying that, but I'm not good at explaining things). Concerning the second possibility for this part (taking the Paths of the Dead), he was traveling with the the army of Rohan until they reached the Paths of the Dead. At that point, he planned to go alone, but Gimli and Legolas forced him to let them come along. There is a natural tendency for people to associate death with night, darkness, gloom, etc. Also, a minor detail which probably doesn't mean anything, but I'll point it out anyway, as it may have some significance. The horses refused to go down the Paths of the Dead, so Aragorn and the others were forced to walk (Thus, they "walked the path alone" instead of "rode the path alone"). Oh, dance in the dark of night Sing to the morning light (NOTE: these lines do appear again later, but I've taken the recurrences out) The strongest indicator of the connection to the Battle of Helms Deep is the emphasis put on night and day and the wait for the sunrise in both the song and during the Battle of Helms Deep in the book. There is a very strong emphasis put on the wait for the sunrise during the Battle of Helms Deep. Waiting for the eastern glow would refer to both the sunrise and the glow of the White Rider, both of which signaled the end of the battle. To fully understand this connection, you must read the book (or at least the part that tells of the Battle of Helms Deep). The last part doesn't seem to specifically relate to any part in LotR, but the mention of day/night is important.
 * I will be making note of this bit a lot more later on, so remember it

"The dark Lord rides in force tonight" Dark Lord is Sauron, and this line refers to his armies going to war. "And time will tell us all" This line could refer to so much, but I believe it refers to Frodo, as no one knows at that point how he was faring, and they were all hoping for some sign that he was okay (I believe "only time will tell" or some similar common phrase was used by Gandalf in the movie when he was asked whether he thought Frodo was okay). Oh, throw down your plow and hoe Rest not to lock your homes This would refer to the duty Éowyn is given when the army of Rohan first heads out. Éowyn is told to gather all the women and children (all those who can't fight) and bring them to a safe place. "Meanwhile your people that are left, the women and the children and the old, should fly to the refuges that you have in the mountains. Were they not prepared against such an evil day as this?  Let them take provision, but delay not, nor burden themselves with treasures, great or small.  It is their live that are at stake." (Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. "King of the Golden Hall", J.R.R. Tolkien) Side by side we wait the might Of the darkest of them all Possible counter-argument (I'm not going to try to spin the things that don't support my argument; I would rather acknowledge them, than deny the obvious): In the world of LotR, the darkest of them all would be Melkor. It is possible, however, that the books that were released before Evermore was written did not give enough information about Melkor to show his true nature. "I hear the horses' thunder" There is a very strong connection between Rohan and horses. "Down in the valley below" Helms Deep is a Valley "I'm waiting for the angels of Avalon" I don't care what anyone says, this has nothing to do with LotR "Waiting for the eastern glow" A reference to the sunrise. I mentioned the importance of it above. The apples of the valley hold The seeds of happiness The ground is rich from tender care Repay, do not forget, no, no Another reference to a valley, though apart from that I don't see a connection. If I had to though, I would try to make a connection to the focus on nature in this part and the trees that appeared at the end of the Battle of Helms Deep. The apples turn to brown and black The tyrant's face is red Oh, war is the common cry Pick up your swords and fly I'm not going to bother with these, as the top line relates to the ones before it and the others can be applied to any story related to war. The sky is filled with good and bad That mortals never know Probably refers to the Nazgûl (they fly). The vast majority of people in the world of Middle Earth wouldn't understand the true nature of them. Oh, well, the night is long The beads of time pass slow Tired eyes on the sunrise Waiting for the eastern glow Again, enforcing the importance given to the sunrise during the Battle of Helms Deep. The pain of war cannot exceed The woe of aftermath More generic war stuff. The drums will shake the castle wall The ring wraiths ride in black Ride on I seem to remember drums mentioned in or around the battle, but I can't find it. The name ringwraith come directly from the book, there can be no dispute on that one. Sing as you raise your bow Shoot straighter than before No connection that I know of, anyone who has one feel free to say so. No comfort has the fire at night That lights the face so cold Probably refers to the fires of Mordor. They would light the face of Sauron. The magic runes are writ in gold To bring the balance back Bring it back Mentioned by someone else, but I'll repeat it here. Magic runes writ in gold would be the writing on the one ring (magic because they appear only in fire, or just refers to the fact that the ring itself is magic). Bring the balance back would refer to the control Sauron has, which is disproportionate to the power anyone else (any mortal, rather) has. At last the sun is shining The clouds of blue roll by refers to the end of the battle (obviously). Note the mention of the sun (corresponds with day). With flames from the dragon of darkness The sunlight blinds his eyes I'm quite sure this has some other origin. Again, I'm not going to claim I know this for a fact, but I am convinced that this song has been strongly influenced by Lord of the Rings. Even if you agree that the song was influenced by LotR, it is obvious there is influence from another source/other sources as well. At the very least, Tolkien deserves a passing mention maybe even with a link to another article that explains the possible influences. Unoriginal Username (talk) 05:43, 1 March 2009 (UTC) (after all that work, I sure do hope I see Tolkien's name on that article)

I'd hate to say this but you didn't proof or end anything for that matter. You are doing orginal research (at best) - it does not belong on the wikipedia. Find a credible source, like a statement of a bandmember or a writer for the band, that talk about the tolkien connection and provide a link, so that the statement can be sourced. Otherwise it is just your interpretation, which just has no place on the wikipedia. I'd say remove the line about tolkien until a source has been found (no, a forum/blog won't do). 77.11.175.185 (talk) 20:29, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Remasters
Surely there should be some mention that this song also appears on Remasters? I'm not enough of an expert to say anything useful about that, though. -- TimNelson (talk) 05:25, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Throw down your plow and hoe
Regarding the "Ending the Tolkien Debate", I think the previous posters comments are largely accurate and as previously mentioned, the consensus amongst a fanbase of millions (both of Zepplin and Tolkien). There is one thing however that I must bring to light:

When discussing the lyric

Throw down your plow and hoe Rest not to lock your homes 

It is my opinion that they are in fact singing:

Throw down your plow and hoe Rest not til the wall holds

which would certainly reference directly to the Battle of Helms Deep where "men of too many or too few winters" (paraphrasing there) were forced to cast aside their mundane concerns - tilling of earth etc. (plow and hoe) - and had to arm themselves in the face of the army of Saruman due to the absence of any semblance of a true militia. "Rest not til the wall holds" suggests the defending of the Deeping Wall at Helm's Deep.

Tis but my humble opinion which I hope in some small way inspires all of us to listen again to what I think is one of the most beautiful songs ever written.

S Bishop —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.180.244 (talk) 19:20, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Cover version edit, & question about external linking policy
I just added an entry to the "Cover Version - Live" section for SHEL, the 4-sister acoustic group from Fort Collins, CO. In doing so, I linked to their YouTube channel - having first read Wikipedia's external linking guidelines. An auto-bot reverted my edit, and its notification indicated I could re-instate my edit if it did not violate guidelines. I did reinstate my edit, noting in the history the justification was that the link was to the artist's YouTube *channel*, not the video itself. I'm new to Wikipedia editing - any guidance from you all? Is such an edit in fact legit, with respect to Wikipedia's policies? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rghm (talk • contribs) 17:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)