Talk:The Beatles in India/Archive 1

Deletion not necessary
Actually, there should be an article just on their visit to India, of which this can be the basis, given its role both in the Beatles' endlessly interesting story arc and in the band's eventual estrangement and break-up. If anything, this article needs expansion (as does the paltry The Studio Years article), not deletion.PJtP (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Accurate?
The name of the song is Sexy Sadie. There are references that say Lennon wrote the song about Maharishi. But does the cited source actually say the name of the song was Maharishi?
 * "Maharishi" (renamed "Sexy Sadie"), "Child of Nature" (reworked as "Jealous Guy" for John Lennon's Imagine) and "Dear Prudence" (named for Prudence Farrow).[9]-- — Kbob • Talk  • 19:52, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There are many sources that say the original title was "Maharishi". I'll add one to make that clear.   Will Beback    talk    19:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Songs
"Indian Rope Trick" was apparently never released, but exists in a bootleg album. It mentions the SRM and is written in a Beach Boys style. I haven't yet found a reliable source for it, but it's mentioned on many blogs.  Will Beback   talk    21:31, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Another song that may have been written at Rishikesh is "India". It's another bootleg item that's on Youtube.   Will Beback    talk    23:22, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's possible the Turner book mentions these and other material relevant to this article; I got it from the library once and I remember it mentions Mary Jane, so it's not just the hits:
 * Might be in your local library. PL290 (talk) 07:07, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Super. I've ordered it. It might be able to references some of the other songs too.   Will Beback    talk    07:12, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have that book. It only mentions released songs, and only newer editions mention those from Live at the BBC and Anthology. It doesn't mention any songs only available on bootlegs. McLerristarr (talk) 07:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I have that book. It only mentions released songs, and only newer editions mention those from Live at the BBC and Anthology. It doesn't mention any songs only available on bootlegs. McLerristarr (talk) 07:19, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

GA
This article is close to a GA rating.--andreasegde (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I hope nobody minds, but I'll work on this article to get it to a GA review.--andreasegde (talk) 20:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Please do. I have more sources to add but there's no need to hold off the GA review for that.   Will Beback    talk    22:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
 * It'll take a few weeks for it to be reviewed, but after looking at it again tomorrow, I think it's time...--andreasegde (talk) 18:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It's looking really, really good.--andreasegde (talk) 13:45, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Starr, McCartney, Lennon & Harrison
As these sections have very little in them, shouldn't they be added to the article?--andreasegde (talk) 09:51, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I had created them as sections to keep the narrative clear. Perhaps non-section headings would work as well. In other words something like this:
 * Starr
 * Ipse locusm.....
 * McCartney
 * Ipse locum...
 * Would that be disruptive?   Will Beback    talk    22:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know! :))--andreasegde (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * More than formatting it's an organizational issue. Different people had different experiences. Organising the "Experience" by person/couple makes it easier to convey the details unique to each. Or that's my thought, at least. As I add details it's harder to know where to put them now. There are many good ways of organising an article, so I'm open to others. Thoughts?   Will Beback    talk    09:11, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Statement by Mardas
Read this, it's great stuff.--andreasegde (talk) 15:24, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's interesting, but is it usable?   Will Beback    talk    05:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah! It's from the New York Times.--andreasegde (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

"Something"
I may have been the one who added this, but on review I'm not sure that it's correct. Boyd describes the matter in the middle of her description of Rishikesh, but she says the song was written while the White Album was being recorded. Presumably, that happened after Rishikesh. Maybe we should find a second source to clarify the issue.  Will Beback   talk    05:52, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Something"


 * I think this nails it on the head. It was written at Abbey Road.--andreasegde (talk) 13:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Good research.   Will Beback    talk    20:27, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Seems that Pattie was fibbing a bit. :)--andreasegde (talk) 10:32, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Every source requires careful consideration. I've never seen a topic with so many different axes to grind.   Will Beback    talk    10:37, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Legacy, etc.
This isn't the best source, but it does directly address the issue of legacy, so I'll park it here for the time being pending better sources. More to follow.  Will Beback   talk    20:05, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It signaled the start of his interest in Eastern spiritual traditions, after his and George Harrison's meetings with the guru Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi of the Transcendental Meditation movement. Indeed, one of Lennon's under-rated contributions to contemporary culture is that he jumpstarted the West's interest in Eastern meditative traditions. To be sure, there were already Eastern-religion groups in the West then, mainly Hare Krishna, Ananda Marga, the San Francisco Zen groups started by D.T. Susuki, the circle of Jiddu Krishnamurti in England. The Beatle's involvement with the Maharishi in 1967 however all of a sudden made Eastern spirituality the in-thing for the generation that idolized them. It was like the impact-but a thousand times more powerful -- of Madonna becoming an adherent of Kabbalah, or Oprah Winfrey of Eckhart Tolle. (By the way, Tolle's best-selling "Power of Now" was presaged by Lennon's "living-for-today" line.) And after Lennon left the guru, young Americans and Europeans -even a Filipina, Gina Lopez of that powerful clan -- were backpacking all over India looking for their gurus and joining ashrams. It certainly inspired me to move from book-learned hatha yoga, to a group of kriya yoga practitioners, and then in the mid-1970s, to the extremely controversial Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, or Osho.
 * 'Imagine'. Rigoberto D. Tiglao. Philippine Daily Inquirer McClatchy - Tribune Business News. Washington: Oct 21, 2010.

Since the Doors met at a TM initiation in 1965, I don't think we can call it a result of the Beatles' involvement in 1967–1968.  Will Beback   talk    08:27, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
 * ''Krieger later attended UCLA but never took school seriously. He dropped out and met Ray Manzarek (keyboardist) in 1965 at a meditation session led by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Krieger already knew John Densmore (drummer). "We were three men on the quest for enlightenment. When he joined, the band became complete," Manzarek said of Krieger.
 * Movie Opens Up Past for Doors Guitarist Former member of rock 'n' roll band now plays jazz and is preparing to tour with a new group. But as Robby Krieger looks back on the days of fame two decades ago, he wishes he could do it again; [Valley Edition] MICHAEL ARKUSH. Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 24, 1991. pg. 86

I'm removing "(with their son Julian Lennon)", because I'm fairly sure he was not there. The Maharishi gave the Lennons a suit for him as a gift, but that doesn't mean he was there personally. The presence of a small English boy would have been mentioned explicitly.  Will Beback   talk    09:05, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm done with the main work on the article organisation, copy editing and fact-checking. I'll fill-in the self-created "fact" tags, and work on the legacy section in the next day or two.  Will Beback   talk    10:19, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Parting comment

 * Regarding Lennon's parting remark, he recounts the episode in an interview from 1971.
 * Yes, there was a big hullaballo about him...trying to get off with Mia Farrow and a few other women... And we went down to him after we stayed up all night discussing 'was it true or not true'. [..] So we went to see Maharishi. [..] And I said 'We're leaving.' He asked 'Why?' and all that shit, and I said 'Well, if you're so cosmic, you'll know why,' because he was always intimating that he did miracles, you know. And I said 'You know why,' and he said 'I don't know why, you must tell me,' and I just kept saying 'You oughta know,' and he gives me a look like 'I'll kill you, you bastard,' and he gave me such a look and I knew then, when he looked at me, you know, because I had called his bluff because I said if you know all, you know. Cosmic consciousness, that's what we're all here for. I was a bit rough on him. 
 * Make of that what you will. It's one of the earlier accounts of the actual break, told by one who was directly present and speaking. I'm not sure how to summarize the this better. The existing material says,
 * ''Lennon became convinced that the Maharishi, who said he was celibate,[94] had made a pass at Farrow or was having relations with other young female students.[95] [..] Lennon, Harrison and Mardas sat up all night discussing the matter and decided to leave the next morning, packing hurriedly.[105] [..] When the Maharishi asked why they were leaving, Lennon replied "If you're so cosmic, you'll know why".
 * We could certainly say more about this crux issue, the all-night discussion followed by the departure.   Will Beback    talk    10:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Jennifer Juniper
Donovan may not be an entirely reliable source. However he says in his memoirs that "Jennifer Juniper" was released in February 1968, before going to Rishikesh, and that's also what the WP article says. In this case, I think his account is more accurate than Brown and Gaines who simply imply, but don't say, that it was composed at the compound. See also: If there's no objection I'll remove it. On the other hand, Donovan does say he wrote "Hurdy Gurdy Man" and "Happiness Runs" there.  Will Beback   talk    00:59, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to show how unreliable these memoirs can be, Cynthia Lennon says that "Jennifer Juniper" was written in India and that Alex Mardas flew to India with the Lennons on 16 February.   Will Beback    talk    05:23, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And another (minor) example: Pattie Boyd says Starr went to the lecture at the Hilton, but Starr and others say he did not.   Will Beback    talk    05:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, Boyd says that she and Harrison left the ashram a day later than the Lennons. Though no one else says that, I can't say she's wrong - the stories are so confused.   Will Beback    talk    05:58, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A 13 April departure for the Harrisons would mesh with the Cooke De Herrera description, assuming she entirely missed out on the Lennon departure on 12 April and that the Harrisons left mid-day. But many accounts imply that Lennon and Harrison were in Delhi at the same time on their return. It doesn't make sense that they left on the different days but arrived the same day, even given the Lennon's taxi's famous flat tyre. Some sources say Lennon and Harrison were on the road together at least until the flat.   Will Beback    talk    12:12, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Photo of the Hilton: here, and here, with no Starr, but this photo at the London Meditation Centre shortly before the meditation meeting at the London Hilton has Starr in it.--andreasegde (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're an amazing researcher. I'd never seen those first two photos. The third photo is more widely reproduced. I recall reading that it was from September 1967, perhaps before a different lecture at the Hilton.   Will Beback    talk    18:50, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Title
I noted as I was editing that the French and Italian projects use the title The Beatles in India. And isn't that how the incident is generally referred? Looking at Google and Google Books there are more hits for India than Rishikesh. I'm just raising the issue here - I won't be taking part in any further discussion, nor am I suggesting that the title is changed; but there is no record of a discussion on the title, so it might be appropriate to have one.  SilkTork  *Tea time 11:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It's interesting to look at those. The Italian article is just a shorter translation of this one, but the French article has some different info and sources. It deserves a closer look as a meta-source.
 * 'The Beatles in India' seems so obvious to look at it now. I'm not sure how we ended up with 'Rishikesh'. The average readers is probably unaware that Rishikesh is in India and might not realize the topic of this article from its title. I don't think the renaming would change the scope in any way so the text could remain the same. If this isn't controversial we can move it without a formal discussion. Any objections or other input?   Will Beback    talk    12:27, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd support a move to India. If Andreasegde agrees, then it would be an uncontroversial move.  SilkTork  *Tea time 15:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I would support that, but (and it's a small but), the article would have to encompass Harrison's various sojourns there as well.--andreasegde (talk) 15:58, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It would be appropriate I think to have a section with a summary of Harrison's later visits to India, though kept small in this article, and split out into a standalone article per WP:Summary style if the material grew. In the meantime I will move the title and make the adjustments to the GA listing, etc.  SilkTork  *Tea time 17:06, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Refs
Parking these here as a reminder to fix these refs.  Will Beback   talk    11:37, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 73 Greene 1998, p. 96.
 * 136 Goldman 2001, p. 296.
 * 148 Olson 20047, p. 339.
 * 151 Bainbridge 1997, p. 188.

New source: Virtual Orientalism, Asian Religions and American Popular Culture

 * Virtual Orientalism, Asian Religions and American Popular Culture, Oxford University Press. 2011
 * Iwamura, Jane, Assistant Professor of Religion and of American Studies and Ethnicity, University of Southern California

Iwamura devotes over 40 pages to analyzing the American media views of the Maharishi, focused on the late 1960s. I got hold of it through an online database, though it's also in hard copy. I'm just beginning to read it, but I'm sure it has significant material relevant to this article.  Will Beback   talk    21:56, 1 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm. It's a semiotic, decontructionist critical review, most of which would not be useful for this article. However some of the text is a lengthy analysis of photos which ran in various news magazines, including photos from Rishikesh. Since they have been the subject of critical attention, we could include a few of them under the fair use exemption. We already have one fair use pic, so probably just one or two more would be allowable. Most relevant would probably be a picture by Larry Kurland for the Saturday Evening Post which shows the Maharishi and the Beatles relaxing outside. I( I cna't find it online, but these pics are probably from the same photo-op.) The second most relevant photos is harder to decide. There's one of the Maharishi in the famous helicopter, but it doesn't include Lennon. There's one of the Maharishi, Harrison, and McCartney in Sweden (a visit which is mentioned briefly in the text). There's also a picture of Maharishi and Mia Farrow with their faces surrounded by marigolds, and one of Nancy Herrera de Cooke and Mike Love "meditating for the camera", plus many more of even less relevance or utility.   Will Beback    talk    00:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Mick Fleetwood
The Mick Fleetwood material is second-hand: there are quotations from his memoirs posted on Salon. I got the book from the library and discovered an error in the Salon excerpts: the first person commentary is not from Fleetwood, it's from Jenny Boyd. She is quoted a great length in the book, including a two-page passage on Rishikesh. Boyd and Fleetwood had broken up just before the event, and I believe they got together again afterwords. So I'll remove the assertion that Fleetwood was there, and reattribute the commentary on dysentary, etc., to Boyd. We might think about mentioning that she was on the splits with Fleetwood when she went to Rishikesh, though it's a bit of a side-detail.  Will Beback   talk    09:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes a side-detail, not worth mentioning. --BweeB (talk) 10:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's akin to saying that Farrow was recently split from Sinatra (which we do). It amps up the secondary celebrity quotient, and adds context to the event itself.Still there are more important details to add first.   Will Beback    talk    10:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, J. has some other views of note, but also shows a faulty memory. She asserts that McCartney was still there when they left, and accompanied Harrison to south India. On another issue, she does not say that they left the day after the Lennons, and mentions Lennon and Harrison conferring in Delhi about how to characterize their departure.   Will Beback    talk    09:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The 'look'
"Paul Mason, a biographer of the Maharishi, interprets Lennon's statement as a challenge to the Maharishi's claim of cosmic consciousness.Sfn|Mason|1994|pp=139-140 Lennon said that his mind was made up when the Maharishi gave him a murderous look in response.Sfn|Mason|1994|p=140 Cynthia Lennon says that when they later walked past the Maharishi to the taxis he looked "very biblical and isolated in his faith".Sfn|Mason|1994|p=140"

Confusing. First, it allows Mason (biographer or not) to interpret what Lennon was thinking, which is very off. The "Lennon said..." sentence is also confusing, because Lennon had decided to leave (as did Harrison) before that last 'look', so he could not have made his mind up as he was actually leaving, as he did it the night before with Harrison and Mardas. Cynthia then upsets the apple cart by saying "he [the Maharishi] looked 'very biblical and isolated in his faith' at the gate". Which one should we believe? Lennon had to protect his interests, Cynthia had nothing to lose by telling what she saw, and Mason interprets.--andreasegde (talk) 08:58, 16 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the encounter with John Lennon occurred before the departure, which is what Cynthia Lennon is talking about. Lennon's comment has been reported in a number of places. I think the first was in a 1971 interview, which I've quoted above under.
 * ...I just kept saying 'You oughta know,' and he gives me a look like 'I'll kill you, you bastard,' and he gave me such a look and I knew then, when he looked at me, you know, because I had called his bluff because I said if you know all, you know. Cosmic consciousness, that's what we're all here for. 
 * So it's not much of an interpretation on Mason's part to assert that Lennon's statement was a challenge to the Maharishi to prove his cosmic consciousness. We could quote Lennon himself instead, abut I think that it's better to use a secondary source. Maybe we can reword it to make it clearer, but I don't think we should delete it outright.   Will Beback    talk    21:14, 16 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Would the chronology and separation of events be clearer if we split the paragraph and swap a sentence?


 * Is that any better?   Will Beback    talk    07:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It's good, apart from "interprets". It leans too heavily towards what a person thinks, but who probably never knew Lennon personally, and wasn't there at the time. It just sounds a bit off. Sorry. :)--andreasegde (talk) 09:17, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * We could use another word instead of "interprets". Something like "views" or "describes" would still be accurate. I think he's just restating what Lennon said, not speculating.   Will Beback    talk    03:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Comma
I think that first comma doesn't belong. While a comma should follow the year in a complete date when it is a parenthetical phrase, it does follow the year. See Comma. In this case it splits the sentence oddly.  Will Beback   talk    07:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The Beatles visited Rishikesh in India in 1968, to attend an advanced Transcendental Meditation (TM) training session at the ashram of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. 

Marisa Berenson
The model Marisa Berenson has a book coming out in October. In an interview with the New York Times she says she was at Rishikesh with the Beatles. She hasn't been mentioned in any other sources. The book appears to be more of a picture-book than a serious tome, but I haven't seen it yet. If it looks reliable we could at least add her name to the attendees.  Will Beback   talk    20:42, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
 * India changed my life, because I was searching for my spiritual path, and I ended up in an ashram in Rishikesh with Maharishi and the Beatles. We’d sit on the floor at night, and George and Ringo would play the guitar, and we’d meditate all day, and have meals together, and become vegetarians, and live in huts. But it was just normal. It wasn’t like, “Oh, here are the Beatles.” The most important thing was my transcendental meditation. I was searching for the light.

Eating and living the TM way
I found a copy of this old book and, to my surprise, it contains a significant account of the 1968 ashram session. The narrator had little direct contact with The Beatles, but she gives interesting detail about the conduct of the course and the operation of the ashram.  Will Beback   talk    03:46, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Webster, N. (1976). Eating and living the TM way. New York: Pocket Books. ISBN 9780671808112

Background
Shouldn't something be said about the stopover flight that The Beatles took (after the Philippines incident), which stopped in India? It was their very first (to my knowledge) visit to the country, albeit short.--andreasegde (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe. Depends if you want the article to tell about all their trips to India, or just focus on the lenghty stay with the Maharishi. But since the title of the article is "Beatles in India", then should mention every time they were in India. --BwB (talk) 11:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree that we should say much about that short visit. The title is a bit misleading as the obvious focus of the article is the relationship between The Beatles and the Maharishi, and their stay at the ashram in particular. We could add a line saying that it wasn't the band's first visit to India, we probably shouldn't go much beyond that.   Will Beback    talk    20:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I do not agree with BeBack's comments. If the article is about the Beatles in India, then we have to discuss ALL their visits to India. If we only want to talk about the relationship between Maharishi and Beatles, then the article has to be renamed and reworked. --BwB (talk) 10:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Renamed, perhaps. But it does not need to be reworked. Essentially everything in it is about the band and their guru. in any case, it's really on the only notable time they were in India. There's no harm in mentioning other visits, but it should be given its appropriately small weight.   Will Beback    talk    10:39, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Their first time actually being in the country is important enough to mention, as it may have led to wanting to them know more about its religions (I'm thinking about Lennon and his attitudes here, as well as Harrison). "It's not a paper encyclopedia", as one is often reminded. --andreasegde (talk) 10:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Right. Depending on how much has been written about it a line or two would probably be good. What sources do we have?   Will Beback    talk    10:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Surely we should cover ALL Beatles visits to India since this is the title of the article. Any material we can find with reliable sources on any Beatles visit to India should be included. --BwB (talk) 10:33, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Will Beback is up for that, but it doesn't mean going into any great length about it.--andreasegde (talk) 11:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not? If the article is about the Beatles visits to India, then we need to write about them all. --BwB (talk) 11:45, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about detailing which hotels they stayed in, what they bought, who they met? As far as the first visit was concerned, George said this, which is about two or three sentences when condensed.--andreasegde (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2012 (UTC).
 * Thanks for that link. It's a little ambiguous about what happened. It sounds like they changed their minds about stopping off in New Delhi, but had no choice. It isn't clear how long they stayed, but the implication is that they left on the next available flight.   Will Beback    talk    21:05, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I've added a brief account.    Will Beback    talk    18:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Lead photo
Why are we using a photo of jungle vegetation as the lead photo for an article called The Beatles in India? How does this photo in anyway represent the article content as a whole? Doesn't it make more sense to use a photo of the Beatles while they were in Rishikesh? Thoughts from others?-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 16:11, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Since there is no response I'm going to rearrange the photos.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 18:42, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

JOHN LENNON

 * John Lennon Letter at Auction   "In this 1967 letter, written from India, Lennon writes about TM: 'Try it,  it really works and its easy'!"
 * An online auction house is selling a 1967 letter that John Lennon wrote to a fan who had inquired about transcendental meditation......In the letter, Lennon tells Jean Harrison she is "searching for something (truth) the same as everyone else." He says the Beatles were lucky to have met Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, but that other teachers could instruct her.
 * Johnny Carson Show
 * JOHN: "We believe in meditation, but not the Maharishi and his scene. But that's a personal mistake we made in public."
 * "The Maharishi is human. We thought he was something else. We made a mistake," exclaimed John Lennon after the Maharishi's wisdom was deemed too earthly by the rock quartet—(June 17, 1986) Rajneesh still revs 'em up, The San Diego Union (CA)

CYNTHIA LENNON
Cynthia on Alex Mardas' role at Rishikesh:
 * A Twist of Lennon by Cynthia Lennon:
 * "Alex and a fellow female meditator began to sow the seeds of doubt into very open minds….. Alexs’ statements about how the Maharishi had been indiscreet with a certain lady, and what a blackguard he had turned out to be gathered momentum. All, may I say, without a single shred of evidence or justification."

YOKO
Yoko: [If Lennon were alive were alive today, says Yoko Ono, he probably would have reconciled with Maharishi. "John would have been the first one now, if he had been here, to recognize and acknowledge what Maharishi has done for the world and appreciate it," she says.]--From Rolling Stone (March 6, 2008 issue)

GEORGE HARRISON
George Harrison said in 1992:, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done—but nothing did."
 * I still practice Transcendental Meditation and I think it's great. Marharishi only ever did good for us, and although I have not been with him physically, I never left him.”

RINGO STARR

 * In February 2008, Ringo said of Maharishi, "One of the wisest men I met in my life was the Maharishi. I always was impressed by his joy and I truly believe he knows where he is going."
 * Ringo Starr said when asked in 2008 about his time in India forty years earlier: “You can take the car, you can take the house, whatever. But the mantra’s mine. It’s in my soul”.

PAUL McCARTNEY

 * PAUL: “He was great to us when Brian died” he said, recalling the train trip to Bangor at George’s request to meet the Maharishi for the first time, on the same day the band learned their manager had died from an overdose.
 * Paul in the book: Many Years From Now by Barry Miles
 * "It was Magic Alex who made the original accusation and I think that it was completely untrue."
 * Paul: "It came at a time when we were looking for something to stabilize us at the end of the crazy 60s" --James, Susan Donaldson, (April 6, 2009) Star’ Mantra: Get 1M Kids to Meditate, ABC News
 * You traveled to India to study with Maharishi in 1968. What was the single most important idea or experience or lesson you gained while you were there?
 * Paul: Getting a mantra from Maharishi and then learning how to use it. The rest is up to your self. So actually, being given a mantra and being taught what to do with it was the most important aspect of the trip—the rest was great fun.
 * Paul in 2009:What are your recollections of Maharishi? How would you describe him?
 * Paul: He was a very spiritual and intelligent man, but what made him so endearing to me was his infectious sense of humor.
 * New York Times, February 7th 2008: "Mr. McCartney left about three weeks later, and Lennon and Harrison left about two weeks after that, after hearing rumors that the maharishi had made sexual advances to one of the women in the ashram. Lennon, as the group’s designated defiant loudmouth, went to the maharishi and said, 'We’re leaving,' adding only — as he reported the story in interviews — 'If you’re so cosmic, you’ll know why'."
 * McCartney: "I was asked for my thoughts on the passing of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and I can only say that whilst I am deeply saddened by his passing, my memories of him will only be joyful ones. He was a great man who worked tirelessly for the people of the world and the cause of unity. I will never forget the dedication that he wrote inside a book he once gave me, which read ’radiate bliss consciousness,’ and that to me says it all. I will miss him but will always think of him with a smile."
 * Paul McCartney's biography:
 * "It was a great gift that Maharishi gave us. For me it came at a time when we were looking for something to stabilize us towards the end of the crazy sixties. It’s a lifelong gift, something you can call on at any time."
 * "Over forty years ago, we ended up in Rishikkesh with Maharishi. Since then, sometimes a lot and sometimes a little, I have meditated. My mantra is a gift Maharishi gave me, something I could use and something no one could take away. It’s one of the few things I was ever given that means so much to me."
 * "When people say, 'Wasn't he stashing it away in a Swiss bank? I always say that I only ever saw him in one piece of cheesecloth," said Paul McCartney of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the Beatles Anthology book. "I never saw him in a decent suit in his life. You would have thought if he was doing it for the money you would catch him bombing off to a New Delhi nightclub in a Rolls. But he always appeared to be in his hut meditating, in a piece of cheesecloth, and I thought: 'You can't knock him for that.'"

Deepak Chopra

 * He [Chopra] said after some prodding: "The Beatles â€” along with their entourage, which included Mia Farrow â€” were doing drugs, taking LSD, at Maharishi's ashram, and he lost his temper with them. He asked them to leave, and they did in a huff. But when they went to the US, John Lennon gave an interview on the Johnny Carson show, accusing Maharishi of being a dirty old man. Later, Lennon also wrote a satirical song about Maharishi, which went: Sexy Sadie, what have you done/you made a fool of everyone." "But I'm sure there was never any truth to Lennon's allegations," added Chopra. "In fact, the rumour was that Maharishi had misbehaved with Mia Farrow, but I met Mia years later at the airport while taking a flight to India, and she asked me to tell Maharishi that she still loved him."--

Other
Then rumors started to circulate: Mahesh, an avowed celibate, had made advances toward at least one female student. The Beatles could tolerate Mahesh’s politics (he wouldn’t oppose the Vietnam War, despite his professed desire for world peace). The could tolerate his inconsistencies (students could use alcohol but not acid). They could tolerate his solicitousness. But they couldn’t tolerate his sexual hypocrisy or even the appearance of it. The felt Mahesh was abusing his power. George and John left abruptly. “We believe meditation, but not the Maharishi and his scene,” said John on the Tonight Show, in mid-May of 1968. “But that’s a personal mistake we made in public.” Yeah. I mean he good. There’s nothing wrong with him,” explaind Paul. “But we think the system is more important than all the two-bit personality bit.”
 * New York Times: In the years since Lennon’s death, in 1980, Harrison and Mr. McCartney reconsidered the accusations against the Maharishi. Mr. McCartney has noted that the rumors of sexual impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas, a supposed inventor and charlatan who had become a Beatles insider. “Magic Alex,” as he was known, had agendas of his own, and may have fabricated (or at least exaggerated) the story. (Mr. Mardas has never commented on the incident.) During the 1990s both Harrison and Mr. McCartney were suitably convinced of the maharishi’s innocence that they reconciled with him and offered apologies.
 * "Most of the group, including Mia Farrow, later said Maharishi’s actions had been misinterpreted and they were sorry to have doubted him."
 * New York Times: "During the 1990s both Harrison and Mr. McCartney were suitably convinced of the maharishi’s innocence that they reconciled with him and offered apologies."
 * LA Times article:
 * In the years since Lennon’s death in 1980, Harrison and McCartney publicly commented on the accusations against Maharishi. McCartney has noted that the rumors of impropriety were raised by Alexis Mardas, who, says The Times, was "a supposed inventor and charlatan who had become a Beatles insider." “Magic Alex,” as he was known, apparently had agendas of his own (which included wanting to be known as "the Beatles' guru"), and according to many sources Mardas flat out fabricated the story. During the 1990s both Harrison and McCartney, convinced of Maharishi’s innocence, reconciled with their meditation teacher and offered apologies. Cynthia Lennon believed that Mardas invented the story to undermine Maharishi's influence on the Beatles. Harrison, years later, commented, "Now, historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have—but nothing did... There were some flaky people around back then and we were four of them."
 * Gurus In America (book): "While the public falling out of several of the Beatles and Maharishi is often reported, little mention is made about the continued positive relationship Maharishi maintained with Paul McCartney and particularly George Harrison, who played a benefit concert for the Natural Law Party in the 1990's."
 * -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 20:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * None of the Beatles stayed for the duration of the teacher training. Ringo left after ten days or so at the ashram. He and his wife missed their kids and anyway has never planned to stay long. Paul left after five and a half weeks. “I’m going away a new man”, Paul is said to have confided in Nancy Cooke de Herrera, who job was to minister to the foursome’s more prosaic needs.  George and John stayed on for a while longer.
 * -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 17:42, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Content from Transcendental Meditation movement article moved here for incorporation into this article

 * In 1968, when The Beatles were followers of the Maharishi, money and promotion were sources of tension.
 * Already included in the Tensions section per this sentence: Money, sex, and drugs were sources of tension between the Maharishi and the Beatles
 * Although there was talk of making a film about the Maharishi in co-operation with Apple Films,
 * Already included in the Filming section
 * it was discovered that the Maharishi was independently negotiating with ABC Television in the US to create a TV special featuring the band.
 * Already included in the Filming section
 * Two visits by their business manager to the Maharishi failed to stop him proclaiming that he could deliver the band for a TV show.
 * Already included in the Filming section
 * Their road manager was surprised when he realised the Maharishi was a sophisticated negotiator, knowing more than the average person about financial percentages.
 * This sentence is word for word from the Tensions section
 * Another project involved Four Star Films and Bliss Productions, a company run by Charles Lutes who was the head of the Maharishi's Spiritual Regeneration Movement in the US.
 * Already in paragraph 2 of the Tensions section
 * It was hoped that The Beatles would appear in it, but the contract was signed without their commitment. Some followers consider the crew's presence to have precipitated the sudden departure of Harrison and Lennon and was the catalyst for their discontent.
 * Already contained in the Tensions section
 * John Lennon later told his wife that he felt that the Maharishi had, in her words, "too much interest in public recognition, celebrities and money" for a spiritual man.
 * Already included in the Tensions section
 * -- — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Upon closer examination, I see that all of the above content is already contained in the article per my notes above, which were added just now.--<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 20:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Parking content for discussion
I've removed the text above and am parking it here pending discussion. Can someone provide a quote from the sources? The reason I've removed it is because the text implies that Lennon had an issue with paying one weeks salary for his TM. However, multiple sources contradict this:
 * The band and many of their entourage paid the fee but the fee was not paid by Lennon.
 * John Lennon said "Everybody gives one week’s wages when they join [TM]. I think it’s the fairest thing I’ve heard of. And that’s all you pay, just the once." 1) Beatles-Discography.com: Day-By-Day Song-By-Song Record-By-Record, By Craig Cross, page 161
 * John Lennon said: "Another groovey thing, everybody gives one week's wages  Hippie By Barry Miles, page 251
 * John Lennon said: "Another groovey thing, everybody gives one week's wages"--John Lennon in his own words by John Lennon, Barry Miles, Pearce Marchbank, page 63
 * "I added my two cents' worth by criticising the Maharishi's policy of demanding a tithe of one week's wages from his followers, whereas the traditional teachings are free to anyone who asks. At this Lennon scoffed at me."--In the Sixties, by Barry Miles, page 1963
 * "To the media, the most interesting obligation for him and the other three was contributing a week’s wages, which clearly would add many thousands of pounds to the Maharishi’s coffers. John replied that only a single joining fee was levied and that this lack of discrimination between rich and poor [is] the fairest thing I’ve ever heard of’."---John Lennon: The Life, By Philip Norman, page 518
 * "They took up TM in earnest-learning their mantras, hesitating only slightly when it came to talk of donating their week’s wages, which for the Beatles was an astronomical sum."---Turn Off Your Mind: The Mystic Sixties and the Dark Side of the Age of ... By Gary Lachman, page 341
 * --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 21:21, 16 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Keithbob, I fully agree with your choice to remove the datum, which is obviously in dispute and likely erroneous. From the sources you provided above, I think its safe to assume that Lennon paid his share as did the rest of the entourage. Really nice work on the article BTW. Cheers! GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  20:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gabe for your time and efforts here. As you know Wikipedia is a collaborative project and the majority of the credit for the article goes to Will BeBack and Andresegde and also to Silk Tork who did the GA review. I've done my best to add to their work. Thanks again for your help! best, --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 18:53, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Explanation for change
In this edit I changed the quote from George Harrison: The reason for this change was that I could not find the original quote on the cited pages of the source (Anthology), so I replaced it with one I could find. However, I later came across the original quote as well and if anyone feels the first quote is better, they are free to change it back. --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 16:10, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Original quote-- "historically, there's the story that something went on that shouldn't have done—but nothing did." page 285
 * Replacement quote-- "It's probably in the history books that Maharishi 'tried to attack Mia Farrow'-but it's bullshit, total bullshit." page 286

Proposed removal
I'd like to remove the Harrison quote from the Experience section: The quote is out of context and has nothing to do with the experience at the ashram, its more a statement of his personal philosophy. What do others think? --<span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS,sans -serif"> — <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b> • Talk  • 12:28, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Harrison told Saltzman, "Like, we're The Beatles after all, aren't we? We have all the money you could ever dream of. We have all the fame you could ever wish for. But, it isn't love. It isn't health. It isn't peace inside, is it?"