Talk:The Blacklist/Archive 2

Requested move 3 May 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. The primary topic status of the show over the term "The Blacklist", which is firmly supported by data evidence, has remained impregnable. The opposes in contrast are not compelling. Many of them are rooted in refusing to accept that definite articles are sufficient WP:SMALLDETAILS to discount blacklisting from consideration, despite being repeatedly given evidence that definite articles were found to be sufficient disambiguation. Other weak arguments relied on by the opposers include "this is pointless" and "this other blacklist was the first that came in my mind". (non-admin closure) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:22, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The Blacklist (TV series) → The Blacklist – Clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There are only two uses of "The Blacklist" listed at Blacklist (disambiguation) besides this popular TV series now in its 9th season: an obscure 1916 silent film and an obscure metal band. The page views of the TV series dominate. Anyone searching with "the blacklist" is almost certainly looking for the TV series. There are other uses of "Blacklist", of course, but those are highly unlikely to be sought as "The Blacklist". History: Before the series premiered, The Blacklist was a dab page to the metal band and to the (then) upcoming TV series. Later it was changed to be a redirect to Blacklist (disambiguation), which it currently remains. It needs to be deleted to make room for this move. В²C ☎ 17:08, 3 May 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:36, 13 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Support, appears to be the primary topic. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 23:05, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Any Blacklist (or blacklist) could be referred to as the Blacklist. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:59, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Of course any blacklist could be referred ”the” blacklist,, but how is that relevant here? For how many uses of “blacklist” is “the” part of its COMMONNAME? How many uses of “blacklist” are likely to be sought as “The Blacklist”? That’s what’s relevant. See below also, please. Your reconsideration accordingly would be appreciated. —В²C ☎ 10:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * My opinion on this has never changed. "The" is not enough to disambiguate. Accordingly, no, my opinion stands. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:43, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , I don’t understand. What about ’s examples below? The Godfather, The Office, The Big Bang Theory… Do you disagree with the community about “the” being enough to disambiguate in these cases? —В²C ☎ 03:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Frankly, yes. But if there was a real consensus then I would accept it. However, I do not believe a few highly notable examples equal a consensus. Other similar RMs have been closed without a move. There is clearly no consensus either way. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I tried looking around for RMs and this is what I found:
 * - The Wire &rarr; The Wire (TV series) unanimous opposition, holding that the show was the clear primary topic and one editor specifically noting readers looking for a page called "wire" won't be searching "The Wire"
 * - The Exorcist (film) &rarr; The Exorcist moved with majority support, discussion doesn't mention any possible conflict with exorcist.
 * - The Interview (2014 film) &rarr; The Interview. A bit older, passed unanimously with limited participation. Nominator notes "The Interview" being distinct from "Interview".
 * - The Notebook (2004 film) &rarr; The Notebook unanimous support, no mention of a possible conflict with notebook.
 * This isn't a lot, it doesn't indicate a global consensus, but it does show decisions in line with the support side of this discussion, using the same arguments. I didn't spot any going the other way, but I only skimmed through a few hundred RMs. – Reidgreg (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The UK and The USA redirect to United Kingdom and United States rather than UK (disambiguation) and USA (disambiguation) – Reidgreg (talk) 11:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As do UK and USA! Because they're the primary topics. This TV show, however, is not the primary topic for Blacklist. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:18, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you,, are personally unfamiliar with the TV show, but it is most certainly the PRIMARYTOPIC for Blacklist by page views. Just look! —В²C ☎ 13:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe. But clearly not by long-term significance, where it is extremely rare for a TV show to trump a common concept. Frankly, the idea that it should is pretty laughable and simply discredits Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, so for you it’s about your perception of WP “credibility” trumping helping users find what they’re seeking. —В²C ☎ 14:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Rare, like a TV series approaching 10 seasons, 200 episodes, and spawning a media franchise? Yes, that is rare.  I feel it's comparable to The Big Bang Theory in that respect. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:10, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Despite being a huge fan of TBBT, I would actually agree that it is not primary topic for the phrase. As I said, it's hugely rare for a TV show to trump a common term in primacy. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:12, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Mild oppose Although Born2cycle is correct, I find the argument against the move raised by Necrothesp compelling. Debresser (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , thank you for considering my follow-up questions. —В²C ☎ 10:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with the reply by Necrothesp that "The" is not enough to disambiguate. Debresser (talk) 11:13, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Necro. Hollywood blacklist stands out (to me) as "THE" blacklist. Gonnym (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , with “the” as part of its name? Likely to be sought preceded with “the”? If that’s so, why is The Hollywood Blacklist red? Why was The Blacklist about the band (now at The Blacklist (band)) from 2008 (prior to which apparently The Blacklist was a red link) until it was moved in March 2013 to make room for a two-dab dab page? Yes, in May 2013 an IP changed that dab page to be a redirect to Blacklist (disambiguation) (Blacklist itself remains a redirect to Blacklisting), but back then the TV show hadn’t aired yet and clearly was not the primary topic, so that may have been appropriate. But not anymore. In fact, there is an argument to be made (though I’m not making it) that by page views the TV series is the primary topic even for plain Blacklist.    —В²C ☎ 10:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:NWFCTM specifically cautions against using 'what first comes to mind' as this is subjective and can lead to systemic bias. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:11, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You're actually using systemic bias to justify why an American TV show should be primary topic for a common phrase? Really? -- Necrothesp (talk) 22:19, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Absolutely not. I'm citing an editing standard to discount personal opinion arguments which have been used by both the oppose and support side in this discussion. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:42, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. I find it unlikely that a reader would type the and the capital B if they weren't looking for the title of a work. Like The Godfather, The Office or The Big Bang Theory, this makes sense to me.  A hatnote might be included. – Reidgreg (talk) 12:38, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Adding a little more to my opinion: It's the combined with title case which distinguishes this from generic usage.  Even if we accept the argument that "the" can be applied to anything (though WP:THE says otherwise for article titles), the TV show is clearly primary across all blacklist articles (|Hollywood_blacklist|Blacklisting pageview comparison). That's the fully disambiguated title, nobody's going there by accident, and it's been the primary topic for as long as pageview statistics are available (ie: it's not recentism).  Perhaps in ten years this will change and the articles can be moved again, but today it is primary and it should be moved to the proposed title. – Reidgreg (talk) 06:22, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If I can bring up one more example: someone searching for idiot is unlikely to type The Idiot. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:13, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support I find the rationale for opposing rather odd, The Godfather goes to the the highly acclaimed film, as oppose to Godfather which goes to a disambiguation page. Actually what I find more odd is why Blacklist (←This should be a disambiguation page!) doesn't go to a disambiguation page instead of the term Blacklisting. Govvy (talk) 10:34, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:OSE! Because Blacklisting is the clear primary topic for the term Blacklist! -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:20, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Necrothesp. [Looking at ngrams, we see considerable use of https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=The+Blacklist&corpus=26&smoothing=3 The Blacklist] prior to the start of the TV show, which should address concerns about how many uses of “blacklist” are likely to be sought as it. BilledMammal (talk) 11:53, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * And actual page views demonstrate that the uses likely to be sought per ngrams are dwarfed by the likelihood of the tv show being sought. Usage in published books revealed by ngrams is not a good predictor of likelihood of being sought in many cases, including this one. —В²C ☎ 13:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This seems far too late, frankly, and a bit pointless. The show is fading in popularity, and any argument that this is the most common use should be qualified with 'for now...'  On balance, the better argument is to oppose.  -- -- Dr. Margi   ✉  15:27, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at outgoing page views for Blacklist (disambiguation)? Practically everyone who gets there ends up going to the TV series. —В²C ☎ 17:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. The TV show is the primary topic for the term "The Blacklist". I find the oppose comments here unavailing. -- Vaulter  18:03, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support The TV show is clearly the primary topic for “The Blacklist”. The link traffic data backs it up.  Not to mention, I’ve never heard of anyone refer to a blacklist as a proper noun with “the” in front of it other than for the TV show.  Unlike, say, the US and UK where it is completely common to say “the United States” or “the United Kingdom”.  A hatnote can be added linking to the disambig page for Blacklist. CAMERAwMUSTACHE (talk) 18:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. The Blacklist series is the primary topic and satisfies common name. Support args are policy- and guideline-based while opposing args are more toward "I don't like it" and should be discarded. It has been shown time after time on Wikipedia that the definite article "the" most definitely disambiguates titles such as The Carpenters and so many other examples as shown. Consensus in this survey lies with the supporting args, and "(TV series)" must be redirected and tagged R from unnecessary disambiguation!  P.I. Ellsworth &numsp;- ed.  put'r there 05:32, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Further discussion
Here are a slew of examples this article would be WP:CONSISTENT with if moved as proposed.


 * The Americans is about the TV series despite the Americans article and The Americans (disambiguation) dab page.
 * The American Embassy is about the TV series despite the American Embassy dab page, not to mention the arguable primary topic of "American embassy", List of diplomatic missions of the United States.
 * The Godfather is about the film despite the Godparent article and the Godfather dab page.
 * The Office is about the TV series despite the Office article and Office (disambiguation).
 * The Big Bang Theory is about the TV series despite the Big Bang article and the Big Bang Theory (disambiguation) dab page.
 * The Wire is about the TV series despite the Wire article and several other uses of "The Wire" listed at the Wire (disambiguation) dab page.
 * The Exorcist is about the film despite the Exorcist article and the Exorcist (disambiguation) dab page.
 * The Interview is about the film despite the Interview article and several other uses of "The Interview" listed at the Interview (disambiguation) dab page.
 * The Notebook is about the film despite the Notebook article and other uses of "The Notebook" as well as "notebook" listed at the Notebook (disambiguation) dab page.
 * The A-Team is about the TV series despite the The A-Team (disambiguation) (to which A-Team redirects).
 * The Event is about the TV series despite the The Event (disambiguation) dab page.

Sure there is WP:OTHERSTUFF, but are all these "wrong"? There are apparent counter-examples, but titles like The Flash (2014 TV series), for example, are actually consistent with this proposal because in such cases the series is clearly not the primary topic for the base name (e.g. The Flash).

So, why should this article be an exception? --В²C ☎ 21:29, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * You seem to have a problem with the fact that you can't garner consensus for your proposed move. Replying to each and every oppose and posting walls of "other stuff" is not going to help you. Just let your proposal play out, and chill. Debresser (talk) 00:54, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * There may be no numerical consensus but I feel consensus can be taken from quality-of-argument (see WP:TALKDONTREVERT). I do agree that having nothing new to add to the discussion, that there's no use beating a dead horse (WP:DEADHORSE). – Reidgreg (talk) 02:26, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

How about giving the idea a chance in order to figure out, whether this would make any difficulties for users or not? If it would, we can always revert the decision and never come back to this question. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.57.28.125 (talk • contribs) 04:43, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree too. I think having the concise list above is adding to the discussion. —-В²C ☎ 04:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * The Equalizer as oppose to Equalizer which is a dis page, it's the same situation, same category of TV show as The Blacklist, a perfect example that what is proposed does work and the oppose comments above do not really give any weight. Govvy (talk) 07:54, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Aram Mojtabai - Acting Assistant Director of the FBI Counterterrorism Division (season 9)
Debresser,

Donald Ressler was a Director for same period in season 3, and it's shown in "Cast and characters". Why this is enough for Ressler, and not enough for Mojtabai? It's only your opinion, no one else have problem with this. Lado85 (talk) 07:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Okay, you're right. So I removed that as well. Debresser (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
 * For the record, I agree with the removal. It's not a significant thing to note in this context. --В²C ☎ 07:16, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Latest reverts
Hello, Debresser.

You've reverted my latest edit for the article, which was made in order to clear the copyedit headnote. I am not going to wage an edit war on you, but pleas, could you provide the reason for reversion which is not your subjective opinion? Also, it would be appreciated if you could give your solution to clearing the headnote. Eagowl (Talk) 06:39, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I am fine with copy editing, but you changed content in ways that IMHO do not reflect the content of the series correctly. I also noticed removal of references in your edit, and that is something which warrants an explanation from your side. Debresser (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The removal of references I've done was only made in order to proceed with some the WP:MOS conditions, also for improving article readability. In the article beginning, the fully released season information is moved to production section annually, for example (if you don't believe me, check history). If you disagree about other refs deleted, just point them out. As for misinterpreting the content, I was just rewriting it to comply with the refs given and the series itself and see nothing wrong in my revision. Eagowl (talk) 03:29, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Hello once again, Debresser.

I know it might be a bit late, but yet as you can see below, due to some reverts you've made following ShaneSim76's edits the stability of the article is contested. I sincerely ask you to discuss your future reverts on a talk page in case you repeat them more than once to prevent edit wars and subjecting the article to instability.

Thank you. Eagowl 06:06, 20 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but that is not a reason to refrain from making necessary edits. Your request is therefore declined. Debresser (talk) 14:25, 20 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Got that. Eagowl 23:54, 20 January 2023 (UTC)