Talk:The Broken Ear

Untitled
Perhaps someone could fill in some information about what appears to be non Hergé art in this comic. I heard that some of the original artwork was lost? - (from 65.213.63.17 on Jan. 3)
 * Hergé has had studio assistance for a long time. Could someone clarify? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:02, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Shall we discuss any inconsistency with the comic version? There seems to be no reason why Ramos and his gangster are following Tortillo in the first hand. They only know about the diamond when they killed Tortillo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.158.43.213 (talk) 11:28, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Three thoughts
1. This article currently identifies The Broken Ear as "the first in the series to begin and end in Belgium." However, this isn't technically accurate. Land of the Soviets begins with Tintin boarding a train in Belgium and ends with him arriving in Louvain. So it should be clarified that the distinction held by The Broken Ear is in fact, that it is the first in the series to have principle action take place in Belgium. 2. I have no idea what the references say about this, but it's interesting that Cœurs Vaillants objected to the death scene at the end of the story, since The Broken Ear was not the first Tintin story to kill off an antagonist. I can't remember if anyone dies in Land of the Soviets, but I do remember that the main villain in Congo falls into a river and is eaten by crocodiles. Not to mention Mitsuhirato commits seppuku at the end of The Blue Lotus (although this isn't actually shown). So this makes me think that the controversy over Alonso and Ramón's deaths has more to do with the decision to show them being taken to Hell. Someone should examine how this information is dealt with in the references and whether we can rephrase things.
 * I think that there has been some confusion regarding the original source material here (Thompson, p. 72), which actually states that The Broken Ear was "the first to start and finish in home surroundings". Myself or another editor have clearly interpreted that as being a reference to Belgium, however as you point out that is an inaccurate interpretation. Problematically, The Broken Ear neither begins nor ends in Tintin's actual flat, but rather in the Brussels ethnographic museum, so I'm assuming that it must be that which is the "home surroundings" in question? Perhaps we should remove this sentence from the article altogether? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that removing the sentence is the way to go, as there is an interesting fact at the heart of this. Again, I believe that the true distinction held by The Broken Ear is that of being the first Adventure to have principle action take place in Belgium. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that Thompson's particular phrasing would support such a statement. It is worth questioning whether a train station or riding through a town on a train should count as being in "home surroundings", so perhaps there's still some way that we could rephrase this. --Jpcase (talk) 15:52, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could actually quote the term "home surroundings", and state that this was Thomson's wording? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think it would be controversial to just say that it was the first to take place primarily in Belgium—it's what the source obviously meant, and we know it to be a fact. It would only be an issue if challenged, which it won't be. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I'm not sure that it's quite so clear cut. If I remember correctly, the majority of the story takes place in the fictional country of San Theodoros (arguably a stand-in for Bolivia). So while Belgium certainly does feature prominently in the story, it isn't the primary setting. --Jpcase (talk) 03:39, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Just realized that I never corrected this, haha. I went ahead and used Thompson's original phrasing, which could be considered accurate, depending on how one interprets "home surroundings". --Jpcase (talk) 17:04, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the sources don't go into much detail on the issue; both merely mention the objections of the Cœurs Vaillants editors in passing, and do not dwell on the issue. That being the case, I don't really know if there is much we can do to the prose in the article, although I have added mention of the antagonists being dragged to Hell, because that is mentioned in the appropriate Thompson citation. Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that the current phrasing is better. Thanks for addressing this! --Jpcase (talk) 15:55, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

3. The image of the Petit Vingtième cover is nice, but I'm wondering whether another image might be better for the article's second fair use allotment. I think people would definitely get a kick out seeing the panel in which Hergé inserted himself, especially since the average reader of The Broken Ear wouldn't be able to pinpoint Hergé's appearance. --Jpcase (talk) 23:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Personally I really like the use of the Petit Vingtième cover in this article, although I can appreciate your reasoning for suggesting the latter image. Part of my concern is that the latter may not be solidly justifiable under our fair use policies. Perhaps other editors might have an opinion on this issue? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * My thinking on this point is that all of the preceding articles carry an image depicting some piece of information that is unique to the Adventure in question; generally changes that were made between the black-and-white and color versions of the stories. The other two cover images used in preceding articles are good, because the one used for Cigars of the Pharaoh depicts the Louvre's influence, while the one used for The Blue Lotus depicts the story's original title - "Tintin en Extreme-Orient" ("Tintin in the Far East"). The cover image used for this article doesn't seem to depict anything of note, and so while I agree that it's a great image, I actually feel that any fair use concerns would be the other way around. An image depicting a moment from the comic, that the article provides commentary on (such as Herge's cameo), would probably be fair use. An image that simply depicts the original newspaper cover for the story and fails to communicate any unique information (such as an artistic influence or an original title), would probably not be fair use, especially since we already have a modern cover image in the infobox. --Jpcase (talk) 16:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it might be an idea to open this question up to other editors with an interest in the Adventures of Tintin articles to see what they have to say:, , , do any of you have an opinion on this issue? Midnightblueowl (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I will look into this later tonight. Prhartcom (talk) 19:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think Jpcase has the understanding of fair use that I have: I doubt the current image meets the requirements.  knows a lot about these things. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:23, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Pinged, so my take is: the current cover, while I understand is weak as representative of the story, is generally not going to be a fair use challenge - you're clearly transforming the work to meet fair use/NFC requirements. So the question is if you can use a second NFC image in this, and that's going to depend a bit on how much commentary you can find to support that. Let's say you want to include the Herge self-cameo; you should have sources that support that (such as ). However, this is speaking without really knowing what the secondary image you may be requesting to use would be. If you can demonstrate a bit more what you are thinking and show where it would be, I can provide more advice on the NFCC part. --M ASEM (t) 00:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

It's terrific when another editor discusses the improvement of the Tintin articles. Jpcase, exactly what page and panel did Hergé insert himself? Do you have a way to scan and upload the panel and write the file description page? Do reliable sources mention the cameo? Can we consider that the way the article currently uses images, including the historic Petit Vingtième cover, is part of a winning formula seen in the other Adventures of Tintin articles? Prhartcom (talk) 03:09, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I rarely work with images on Wikipedia. So no, I can't say that I know how to scan and upload the panel or write the file description page; although I suppose that I could figure these things out, if need be. As for reliable sources, the cameo has certainly received coverage, hence why it's already been written about in this article. Hergé, the Man Who Created Tintin by Pierre Assouline is currently being used as a reference and apparently states that the cameo occurs in the second frame of the comic. Also, see the Globe and Mail reference that Masem has linked to above. I haven't actually read any of the articles beyond The Crab with the Golden Claws, and so I can't comment on the image use of any Tintin articles beyond that point. But as I've said, the reason for why I've questioned the use of the Petit Vingtième cover image in this instance, is because it does not match the manner of image use that I've seen in other Tintin articles; that is, it does not present any piece of information that is unique to the comic in question. --Jpcase (talk) 13:46, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * As I explained to Prhartcom, my knowledge of image use on Wikipedia is lacking. And so there are a few aspects of your post that I don't entirely follow. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "transforming" the work - does that have something to do with the resolution? It's also unclear to me, when you refer to the "current cover", whether you're discussing the English edition cover in the infobox or the Petit Vingtième cover used in the "Original Publication" section. You say that the question is, "if you can use a second NFC image in this", but the current version of the article already has two NFC images, since there are two NFC covers currently in use. The first cover is certainly fair use, while the second would be, I think, if it presented some unique piece of information that is discussed within the body of the article. And that's the problem. It doesn't. I have no problem with continuing to use the image, if that's what the other editors would like, and if fair use isn't deemed to be a problem. But I feel that the Herge cameo would perhaps be a better alternative. --Jpcase (talk) 14:03, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * For "transforming" we are basically looking for using the image in a manner that is more than just dropping an image onto the page and say nothing about it. Transformative use is about making the image relevant, which we use WP:NFCC as a metric to judge. There's no strict limit on NFCC - though we strive for minimum use. In an article about a published work, one cover image is almost always acceptable use but other uses do need to show more relevance. --M ASEM  (t) 14:19, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation! That matches my understanding of fair use. And I'm not sure that the Petit Vingtième cover image meets WP:NFCC. The Herge cameo would though, I think. Do you have an opinion on the matter? Jpcase (talk) 15:54, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * To be honest, after reading the newspaper article I linked that affirms that Herge placed cameos of himself throughout the Tintin series, this would be a justified use of one of the Herge cameos on the main Tintin page, but not necessarily on any specific story (since it was a common occurrence). It would be more justified in the story page if the cameos were far less frequent (perhaps limited to one story). --M ASEM (t) 15:59, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but which specific part of the NFCC is your decision based on? I do feel that the cameo would meet criteria #8, since an omission of the image would certainly be "detrimental" to readers possessing a full and proper understanding of the topic; in that, the average reader is likely unable to pinpoint the cameo on their own and should not necessarily be expected to check out the main Tintin article for further information. It's also worth noting that the main Adventures of Tintin article is already full to the brim with NFC, making it at least somewhat doubtful that an image depicting Herge's cameos could be accommodated there (as a side point, isn't there a limit of two NFC images per article? I know that I've read that somewhere). What are your thoughts on the Petit Vingtième cover image though? I don't really see how that image meets criteria #8, and so whether we use the cameo or something else, I do still feel that an alternative image would probably make for a better accompaniment to the cover image contained in the Infobox. --Jpcase (talk) 14:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The cameo aspect, as you are arguing it, would fail NFCC#3a, minimal use, in that, if you can argue that we should point out the cameo in this story, one could go to any other Tintin story that includes a Herge cameo and argue the same logic to include an NFC of that cameo there. So each cameo appearance would be illustrated, but we really only need one to showcase that Herge placed cameos of himself in the work, and that's better suited at the main Tintin page; so one image there would minimize multiple cameo images per page. As for a secondary image, not knowing this story at all, look for secondary sources or commentary that discuss plot elements or visuals of the story that could be used to justify an image specifically unique to the story. There may not be any, in such cases maybe you need to forgo a secondary image, or look for a free image that might help. --M ASEM  (t) 14:34, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Alright, I can see how the cameo image might fail to meet the standards for minimal use. Regarding my other question though, isn't there a limit of two NFC images per article? Do you know why it is that some of the GA and FA Tintin articles that I'm seeing have more (in some cases, quite a bit more) than two? --Jpcase (talk) 15:33, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no limit - the only thing we ask for is minimal use meaning that ideally we'd love to see zero images. Obviously, for published works, we generally allow one cover image to help identify the work. Any subsequent image is allowable if it helps to improve the reader's understanding and would harm that if it wasn't included, and that if there's no free replacement. What that means in terms of number of images various from article to article so hence, there's no maximum or minimum here. --M ASEM (t) 16:16, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

FYI - I've left responses for you above, but forgot to ping you. --Jpcase (talk) 16:58, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

A Fourth Thought
I'm also wondering - was this the first Tintin to not have a celebration after its initial publication? It seems that for all of the previous adventures, an actor was hired to play Tintin, and a big event was held. Cigars of the Pharaoh didn't have one, I don't think, but Tintin never "returned" from that adventure, he went on to China and then returned after The Blue Lotus. And correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't those two stories originally written as a singular adventure under the title Tintin in the Orient? If no celebration was held after publication of The Broken Ear, and any of the sources comment on this, then that ought to be mentioned here. --Jpcase (talk) 03:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You're quite correct regarding the Tintin in the Orient situation. Unfortunately I don't recall any of the English-language sources mentioning an event to celebrate the culmination of The Broken Ear, and I am sure that had there been mention made of it in those sources then myself and others would have come across it when building up this article. It might be the case that some of the French-language sources mention it? Midnightblueowl (talk) 19:20, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * No. We don't have to say something along the lines of "no sources say that something didn't happen". Prhartcom (talk) 01:00, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, if none of the sources comment on it, then we can't discuss it. But Prhartcom, the fact that it didn't happen, is notable, since it would have been a first for the series. All of the articles for the preceding Adventures (again, taking Cigars of the Pharaoh and The Blue Lotus together as a single Adventure) make mention of a celebration, so the absence of one for The Broken Ear is rather significant. It makes me wonder about the reasoning behind the decision, and I feel that it's quite a shame if none of the sources have thought to analyze the matter. --Jpcase (talk) 15:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that the absence is interesting. Perhaps greater research into Hergé's early work that might be published in future might shine greater light on this area. For now at least, we can but hope. Best, Midnightblueowl (talk) 15:24, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * It's notable, but if it hasn't been noted then that's WP:OR. Curly Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 21:29, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The direction that ideas flow when writing an article are from the sources into the article. Prhartcom (talk) 03:16, 13 October 2015 (UTC)