Talk:The Castle (novel)

Article name
The article was moved without discussion from The Castle (novel) to The Castle (Kafka novel). Recently, Lohengrin (opera) was moved to Lohengrin (Wagner), which was reverted after long discussions. Can this be reverted without the long discussions? Kafka's work is the primary among the novels, as Wagner's is the primary of the operas. - We can also have a move request instead, to move it to the original name, Das Schloss. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Gerda, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should only apply to top level undisambiguated titles. If a title is disambiguated, it needs to be fully disambiguated.  See WP:INCDAB.  As The Castle (novel) can equally apply to this novel and The Castle (Kadare novel), further disambiguation is required.  See WP:BOOKDAB.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:07, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * This is exactly the reasoning by which Lohengrin was moved, please spare us the process (compare Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 March 16), in the name of common sense, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * That seems to be an exception that was made, and is not the case for thousands of other articles. See Revolver (Beatles album) or Thriller (Michael Jackson album).  In fact, if you take the example at WP:BOOKDAB, clearly the Woolf novel is the more well known of the two.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't talk about thousands of other articles but this one, with a known and linked name for years, similar to the opera. Your move was bold and not needed. Please revert. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:46, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The Castle (novel) can only mean Kafka's novel (as the REDIRECT attests), . For those looking for others, the hatnote serves well. I support reverting the move. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:00, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * The point being it is the norm to fully disambiguate, not partially disambiguate. Note that I left the redirect pointing here, which is already making a concession against WP:INCDAB.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:02, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

I think I may have a better solution to keep everyone happy. On closer inspection, it seems the Kadare novel is published in both the UK and the US as The Siege... --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Please check your language ;) - You can't say "keep ... happy" after having made people unhappy with a completely unneeded and undiscussed move. I hope we won't see that again. If you want to "make" me happy, move a certain piece of music to the title the composer had published. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll stand by my assertation that my move was completely correct per guidelines. It's only that on analysis the WP:COMMONNAME for the Kadare novel appears to have been wrong that we've found a simple solution.  --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:56, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You are correct per the guidelines. Nobody seems to doubt that. However, happiness and strict following of the guidelines don't go well together, in this case (as for Lohengrin) not even common sense and strict following of the guidelines. What if an author calls his novel "Bible", - would you disambiguate Bible? Change the guidelines? That was already suggested in the other case. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Common sense applies here. WP:PRIMARYTOPIC is clear:  "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to long-term significance, if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term." Hence, the Kafka novel is primary.  Also, from WP:PRECISION: "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that."  Further, WP:NATURALDIS provides an example that is directly on point:  "For example, it would be inappropriate to title an article "Queen (rock band)", as Queen (band) is precise enough to distinguish the rock band from other uses of the term "Queen"."  This is the primary novel of that name.   Montanabw (talk)  17:05, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Addition of ISBN from Wikidata
Please note that this article's infobox is retrieving an ISBN from Wikidata currently. This is the result of a change made to Infobox book as a result of this RfC. It would be appreciated if an editor took some time to review this ISBN to ensure it is appropriate for the infobox. If it is not, you could consider either correcting the ISBN on Wikidata (preferred) or introducing a blank ISBN parameter in the infobox to block the retrieval from Wikidata. If you do review the ISBN, please respond here so other editors don't duplicate your work. This is an automated message to address concerns that this change did not show up on watchlists. ~ RobTalk 01:20, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified (January 2018)
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Title
I'd like to add a bit more unsourced linguistic speculation:

"Der Schoss" - the lap, or the womb

"Der Schiss" - fright, or excrement

"Klamm" - note the connection with the adjective "verklemmt" (sexually inhibited)

"Kamm" - a comb, possibly on a cock (the symbolism is evident).

"Lamm" - when the K (as in the name of the novel's protagonist) is removed, "lamb" remains - perhaps a reference to Christianity?

"Frieda", the name of the female protagonist - implies "Friede", tranquillity, and "Frieden", peace. When pronounced carelessly there's a distinct similarity to "prüde", prude.

"Erlanger" - here, there's a connection to the verb "erlangen" (achieve). Also "er" (he) "lange" (for a long time) or "langer" (a long one).2A02:AA1:1620:38C2:6DEE:9C:DF8:8754 (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)