Talk:The Castle (novel)/Archive 1

Criticism
Needs considerable work. Inaccuracy: K. was indeed summoned for land survey (note his talks with village superintendent), although his services were no longer needed. Make comparisons to The Trial less extensive; the novel can well stand on its own plus readed of article need not be familiar with the Trial to understand article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.21.179.26 (talk • contribs) 23:41, 25 September 2004


 * --I'm fairly certain that K. wasn't called to be a land surveyor. An official from the Castle says he was, after having just said that he wasn't. I just read the book, so it's fairly fresh in my mind. I don't have it in front of me, so I can't quote exactly, but there was something about after K. had talked on the phone with the officials, he was surprised that they agreed that he was called as a land surveyor, and that meant that "they were playing the game in good stride," in other words, they were calling his bluff and playing along with him, thinking it would make him give up.


 * What I think "really" happened is this: a long time before K. got there, a land surveyor was suggested to come. (The mayor talks about this later on.) But some of the officials proved that there was no need for a land surveyor. Through some bureaucratic mix-up, one department of the Castle thought the land-surveyor was still coming, while another had invalided the need.


 * Then K. shows up - not to land-survey, just some random traveller. He needs a place to go to get out of the snow and cold, goes to the inn, then gets woken up, and gets told that he needs a permit to sleep there. Thinking quickly, he says that he is the land-surveyor, hoping this will afford him with some respect. When the others start to play along, K. is forced to play along as well (or maybe he just wants to).


 * Note that there is no mention of land-surveying before his sleep is disturbed. Also, if he was there as a land-surveyor, on official business, why hadn't sleeping arrangements been made before. Wouldn't he have been brough in a horse & carriage? Why was K. content to sleep in a corner on a bed of straw?


 * Also not sure why you think the article compares the novel too much to The Trial. The only reference I think the article makes to the Trial is to compare Josef K. of the Trial to K. of the Castle, and that certainly doesn't mean that the reader has to have read the Trial to understnad the Castle (I've only read the Castle and I understand it fine).Putrescent stench 20:18, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

General comment
This book is rather difficult to sum up as it can get rather subtle and labrynthine in its turns. I looked at it, and it is rather vague regarding the story. But the story itself is rather vague.


 * The Castle consists more of a situation than a plot.

I think that's rather a good way to state it, or as good as any I can think of at the moment.


 * Inaccuracy: K. was indeed summoned for land survey (note his talks with village superintendent), although his services were no longer needed. 

I don't think this is ever made entirely clear, and I'd be afraid to make any definitive statements about whether he was summoned or not. It may indeed be a stroke of genius on Kafka's part that we can't quite tell. An interesting novel, with interesting criticisms, but it's damn difficult to work on the article without detailed re-reading of the book itself.

I've got a copy and I'll try to get a cover scan so we'll at least have that. --DanielCD 15:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I have always been led to believe that K. wasn't a land surveyor at all. He simply made it up on the spot. Admittedly, this information was given to me by my father who said he'd read an Oxford University Professors take on the novel and it appears that K. wasn't a land surveyor and the whole point of the book it to illustrate Kafka's own struggle in communicating with his father. - Michael Bowden

M. C. Escher's works or Impossible objects might be an interesting analogy to mention. --DanielCD 15:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Additionally, the literary style of The Castle is crafted as to mimic the Castle that K. is attempting to contact: the novel has every appearance of holding together and building a text, but as it is examined, the text deconstructs itself and crumbles like the Castle in the story.

I removed this for now until we can reword it. It is quite confusing.

Also note that the name of K. should always include the period. I have tried to standardize the capitalization of the Castle by capitalizing it when it is referred to directly (as if it is a character itself). I've left it uncapitalized, however, when it's used as an adjective (i.e. "castle" officials). --DanielCD 16:10, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Representing Translations
I have been thinking about how to clean up parts of this article and have corrected a few items, but feel that the current structure does not work well with this book. So, after talking to kevinalewis, I would like to propose a new structure for this article and carry that structure over to The Trial (others?) if it looks like it works well here.

Purpose:
Not just The Castle, but many books are translated into different languages. Translations, not done by the author, have one serious issue with them -- they are inherently interpretations of the work and are biased by the thoughts of the translator and the political and social environment at the time of the translation. In the case of Kafka there is a second issue -- his death prior to finishing and publishing his works in the original language. So the purpose of a new structure for this article is to provide the reader with the plot of the book, its history and pointers to the different versions (including German) so they can determine which version(s?) is most appropriate for them to read.

Main Title Article
The idea is to build a small hierarchy of articles. I do not think it should get carried away, so two levels should suffice. The highest level is the Main Title Article (this article). This would be the original editions published by Max Brod and Kurt Wolff in 1927. It is my understanding that there were four editions of the German text and the forth was the "complete" work. The details of the book will probably need to be completed by a German speaker. This level article should have two sections -- The Plot: the "normal" information entered for a novel and Edition History. The latter should have the history of the manuscript. In The Castle's case the history is interesting and very relevant to the translation one may want to read.

Subsequent Editions
Max Brod composed a number of editions of The Castle as he pieced together the manuscript. These are all German copies and if possible should reference an article on them written by a qualified individual. In 1982 Malcolm Pasley, et al, created the "restored" text version in two volumes -- the novel and the editorial notes/edits.

There are three basic editions that should be represented and defined for the reader. These are:
 * The Definitive Edition
 * The Critical Edition
 * The Restored Text Edition

So I see at least two articles, one on the Brod construction of the novel and the other on the Pasley version. There may be others if there is a significant difference that warrants description or discussion.

Translations
The translations follow the editions above, but take on many forms. The translations by Edwin and Willa Muir are themselves quite varied. Some are just the novel and end at Frieda leaving K. while others continue beyond that to the "full unfinished" novel. Some of the editions have editor's notes or additional translations on where chapters had been changed between editions, added footnotes to deleted text, etc. These translations, though regarded as dated, are the translations that made Kafka famous in the English speaking world and hence have a significant importance.

Beyond these there are the translation of the Pasley Restored Text. In this case the reference is to the Harmon translation That put a fresh light on the author many of us read decades of years ago.

Therefore here too I see two articles, one for each of the primary English editions.

Other references
I think there also needs to be some general reference to the various versions added to Kafka's entry (I am working on that) to alert English readers of the manuscript history and difference in the translation.

Comments?

-Todd 17:38, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm all for any improvements. I've read The Castle, but I have had a hard time trying to add to this article. Any suggestions or rewriting is welcome, and I'll try to help. And yes, translations need to be described, especially since the Muir has been a little controversial (given later translator/interpreters' claims they read it as an attempt to reach an unavailable God, among other translating details). Not that that isn't a possible reading, but the translations to play a role in its history and interpretation. Translations age in ways the original work does not, and it is a tough thing to translate any classic work. I applaud your efforts. --DanielCD 19:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Proposed change to The Castle article
All,

In my User:Toddwill/sandbox1|sandbox (no longer there) I have placed a re-write of this article. I have attempted to maintain the input and edits from everyone where appropriate. I would like input prior to posting this (sometime next week) to make sure there are no major objections. Please note that this article has become very generic about the book and the specifics for the various translations are kept with the editions -- namely Muir: The Castle, Definitive Edition, Muir Translation Harman: The Castle, Critical Edition, Harman Translation and Underwood:The Castle, Critical Edition, Underwood Translation (only a stub). I have also added an article for Malcolm Pasley which could use some help.

Please make your comments/corrections on my sandbox page and I will try to respond quickly. -Todd 18:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Re-Write
This article was rewritten (29-Mar-06) in an attempt to better represent the two major and one minor translations of Kafka's work. In that process, information was kept from previous editor's, although some may have been significantly edited. Supporting links to a few other articles and stubs were created, as well as a section added to the Kafka entry.

One citation is still needed that I could not find for the previous article. I do believe that it is a correct statement but I could not find a source. Hopefully someone knows the source.

Articles:
 * The Castle, Definitive Edition, Muir Translation
 * The Castle, Critical Edition, Harman Translation
 * Malcolm Pasley

Stubs: -Todd 14:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The Castle, Critical Edition, Underwood Translation
 * Schocken Books

Rating
I rerated this as High-importance. Kafka's most important novel, with the most influence outside the scope of literature, is definitely The Trial. I have therefore given that work Top-importance, and this considerably less influential work (imho) High-importance. Errabee 11:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Merging translations
I see no reason -- and no precedent -- for different translations to have their own articles. I was actually about to merge the Underwood translation into this article. Someone please convince me why I shouldn't simply nominate them for AFD. 23skidoo 14:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Pending that discussion, I have placed Merge requests on the three articles (and cancelled my immediate merge of Underwood to allow time for discussion). An alternative to loading them all into this article is to create ONE article discussing the noteworthy elements of the three translations. That I would support. Otherwise I can't see any reason why I couldn't create an article on the Norwegian translation of The Da Vinci Code (for faceteous example) 23skidoo 15:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with 23skidoo. I don't see a reason for different translations having their own articles. Merge them. Grey Shadow 16:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please delete or merge, the Wikipedia article The Castle should include discussions of the various translations. They do not merit their own articles.  The same with various versions of a number of modern novels (the main versions of The Stranger, a Fitzgerald, various other books that flit across the mind).  The user should be able to go to one article and gather all the information they need, including the differences between various versions.  Two of these versions need only a paragraph in the main article, the other a sentence to cover their subject matter.  Making one version a main article and the others variation articles requires a POV to decided which is which, especially if all versions were published while the author was alive or all are posthumous.  KP Botany 20:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the other thing. What makes these 3 translations particularly notable enough to warrant their own articles? I agree that's a POV judgement call right there. I'll wait a little longer for any potential objections before going ahead. As mentioned above, I would support a single article on the translations ... if there's any real reason for discussing them (i.e. controversy, critical acclaim, etc.) 23skidoo 20:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * When you say you "see no reason" are you aware of the work and it's tranlations to be able to knowledgeably comment. This debate in my view should be largely the perview of those that are conversant with the specific issues. It is a serious novel with significant literarary merit. Wether individual translations have, I don't know. But those that do should be the ones to answer this question. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page) / (Desk)  09:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the articles should be merged. As with virtually all of Kafka's works, there are very important differences between the various translations; however, there's no reason why this cannot, or should not, be addressed at the main article. The current situation, in my view, could only lead to a splintering of discussion of this material. -- Todeswalzer | Talk 22:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Definitely merge them. Perhaps I will if it isn't taken care of in a week or two.b_cubed 04:41, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Kafka is NOT a German writer!! He lived in the Prague, which was part of the Austrian-Hungarian empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.36.201 (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Castle.jpg
Image:The Castle.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:DasSchloss(Pasley).jpg
Image:DasSchloss(Pasley).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Novel Would Have Ended with K.'s Death?
In the opening paragraph of the article is says, "Kafka died before finishing the work, but suggested it would end with the Land Surveyor dying in the village; the castle notifying him on his death bed that his 'legal claim to live in the village was not valid, yet, taking certain auxiliary circumstances into account, he was permitted to live and work there'." What is the origin of this quote?71.53.30.116 (talk) 16:28, 29 November 2009 (UTC)ADVENT
 * Well, this isn't the original source, but it backs it up: Jewish writing and identity in the twentieth century By Leon I. Yudkin - - http://books.google.com/books?id=v3wOAAAAQAAJ&dq=legal+claim+to+live+in+the+village+was+not+valid,+yet,+taking+certain+auxiliary+circumstances+into+account&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s 71.53.30.116 (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)ADVENT
 * Apparently someone has added the source of this in footnote 2 The Castle, Alfred A. Knopf, 1968, New York, New York, Publisher's note page vi Kafka's friend Max Brod had reported this Tumacama (talk) 04:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Klamm's name
Klam means not only "illusion" but also "deceit" in Czech. Maybe that would be worth mentioning in the characters overview. 94.113.37.222 (talk) 17:13, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In the edition I am reading, it is noted that "Klam" is short for a German word meaning "secrecy". Jimsteele9999 (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Possible edits to "Plot" section
To begin with, all of my comments are based on the Anthea Bell translation, published by Oxford University Press in 2009.

There are a few phrases in the plot section that appear to be misleadingly worded.

In the first paragraph, the phrase "makes himself out to be a land surveyor," puts a lot of weight on the fact that K. may not be what he claims. While I do believe that it is not clear whether or not K. is actually a land surveyor, this wording lends itself to an interpretation that he is not. I feel that it would be more appropriate to say that K. "calls himself a land surveyor" or "is a self-described land surveyor," leaving the possibility that he is not open while providing a more equitable representation of the ambiguity.

In the second paragraph of this section, the council chairman (or mayor in other translations) "trying to accommodate K. ... offers him a position of school janitor." The teacher tells K. that "The village mayor fears that, if the decision on your affairs is too long in coming, you may do something thoughtless of your own accord...But he is ready to make a provisional and truly generous decision within his own competence, and now it remains only for you to accept it: he offers you the temporary post of school janitor." While it does seem to be the case that the mayor does this out of some sense of kindness (as described in the paragraphs following this passage)the word "accommodate" seems to be too welcoming of K. I feel that "accommodation" is more of an interpretation than a description of this point in the plot, because attributing any reason to the orders of The Castle is impossible as K. himself discovers throughout the novel. I believe that it would be more appropriate to simply say that K. was offered the position, and not attempt to give a reason as to why.

In the fourth paragraph, the men of the Castle are referred to as "occupants," which seems to take too much liberty from the text. The existence of the castle is ambiguous in a metaphysical sense, since K. never really penetrates this bureaucracy, never visits the castle, and never has proof of its existence other than word of mouth and people claiming to be part of the bureaucracy. I believe a better wording would be "the people of the castle," highlighting the ambiguity.

In general, I feel that one must take great care in attempting to summarize the plot of this work. Because so much of it is ambiguous I feel that going beyond the text, even in minor and benign ways, can be ultimately harmful — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bryan A.M. (talk • contribs) 16:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Publication History
This section is not in chronological order. How should it be fixed? (Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC))

unused refs
"My References please leave in case I made a mistake
 * http://www.centerforbookculture.org/review/bookreviews/98_3/castle.html
 * http://www.textkritik.de/rezensionen/kafka/proc_03.htm
 * Arthur Samuelson, Publishers Note, The Castle, 1998, Schocken Books, New York, New York
 * The Castle, Alfred A. Knopf, 1968, New York, New York
 * http://www.kafka.org/index.php?id=184,200,0,0,1,0
 * http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/03/29/reviews/980329.29adlert.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
 * http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/german/track/heidsiec/KafkaAntisemitism/KafkaAntisemitism.pdf
 * http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/17/nov98/ormsby.htm
 * http://www.themodernword.com/kafka/
 * http://www.themodernword.com/kafka/kafka_intro.html (tied between Castle and the trial
 * 11http://www.penguinclassics.co.uk/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,10_0141183446,00.html (The Castle, Penguin Classics, London, UK, Franz Kafka (Author), J. A. Underwood (Translator) Idris Parry (Introduction), 304 pages, ISBN 0-14-118344-6
 * http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/german/track/heidsiec/KafkaLawsources/KafkaLawsources.pdf
 * http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/german/track/heidsiec/kafkaethics/kafkaethics.pdf
 * http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/german/track/heidsiec/kafkahusserlanalyt/kafkahusserlanalyt.pdf
 * http://www.textkritik.de/rezensionen/kafka/einl_04.htm (Detail on punctuation)
 * Doctoral paper, Hartmut M. Rastalsky, 1997, http://www.lsa.umich.edu/german/hmr/dissertation/10kafka.doc (Simple bureaucracy and anti-semitism (p24))"

found abandoned in an html comment and cluttering up the wiki text... Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Significant Difference Between The Muirs and The Harman Translation
I have identified a significant difference between the Muirs and Harman translation.

This is from page 18 of the Harman translation:

"they say he pays good money for good work, is that so? Anybody traveling as far from his wife and child as I am wants to have something to take home with him."

From the corressponding section of the text on page 13 of the Muirs tanslation:

"but he pays well for good work, doesn't he? When a man like me travels so far from home he wants to go back with something in his pockets."

Do you see the crucial difference? There is no mention of K's supposed wife and child in the Muirs translation! Now this is a crucial ommision if it is indeed an actually ommission since it casts the actions and character of K in an entirely different light since in the Harman text K is a potential bigamist due to his intention to marry Frieda.

I am guessing it is impossible to gain access to the original manuscipt to discern what Kafka actually wrote but can anyone who reads German and has access to the Brod and Pasley critical editions let us know where those editions stand with respect to this important divergence? Flaviusvulso (talk) 06:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * So I have looked at the version published by Brod which is the text translated by the Muirs; and Brod's version does indeed refer to K as having a wife. This further confirms Harman's criticisms of the Muirs.


 * This is the text portion from the text published by Brod.


 * "Ich kenne den Grafen noch nicht,“ sagte K., „er soll gute Arbeit gut bezahlen, ist das wahr? Wenn man, wie ich, so weit von Frau und Kind reist, dann will man auch etwas heimbringen."


 * This is a link to Brod's text which is actually in wikisource: https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Schlo%C3%9F


 * Flaviusvulso (talk) 11:54, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * This is interesting. What do you think of adding to the translation section of Franz Kafka works? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you have in mind Gerda? All I have found is a presumed error in translation by the Muirs, albeit a significant one. Perhaps I might be more inclinded to reference Harman's criticism's in this article. Flaviusvulso (talk) 08:58, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure here, but I thought of the other also, as you hinted that there are flaws with the Muir translations in general. I think it's of interest to the general article also (which had the link to the German source, btw), --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:04, 21 July 2013 (UTC)