Talk:The Chosen (TV series)/Archive 2

Spit the episode/season section?
I didn’t see this at first, but after looking through the article I realized that this show has nearly four seasons at this point. I think we should divide it to a separate article so it won’t fall into the “TL;DR” category if you know what I mean. I’m not familiar on what the requirements are to make the episode/season section a disunite article, but seeing it has quite a few seasons perhaps we do so? Wolfquack (talk) 10:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)


 * There is actually a standard for making that decision: MOS:TVSPLIT. At this point, the article doesn't meet this standard.  In fact, I recently nominated the season 1 and 2 articles for deletion as they don't conform to this standard and a split was never discussed.  They are exact duplicates of information already included in the main article (this one), with nothing additional beyond that.  Per the WP:WikiProject Television guideline, There should be real world content to accompany any additional split that is not simply a duplication of the main page's content.  But I digress...  IMO, there's not enough at this time to warrant a list article for the episodes either.  The current article is very small in terms of readable prose (13k) and there are only 26 episodes at this time, not enough to justify a list article.   Butler Blog   (talk) 13:35, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok I can see that, thanks for sharing that link to the subsection on MOS. Since 50-60 eps are needed to divide the section and article, I can definitely see (since the show will without doubt be on air for a while due to its popularity) when it gets to about the fifth season that I (or someone else) can begin developing the article and publish it when it gets to the sixth-seventh season, because by then it would meet the formers criteria. Although if it gets cancelled I’ll have to reluctantly discard those ideas. Wolfquack (talk) 14:49, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Season pages be deleted, I’ll go over there to see if I could “vote” on the article, or at best give some input. Wolfquack (talk) 14:52, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Revisiting this discussion rather than starting a new one. As noted elsewhere, I'd like to get this article to WP:GA status. Working towards that, the article has been expanded quite a bit in the last couple of months, now at around 3500 words of readable prose (w/o the episode summaries). Without the cast list and episode lists, it's at about 22k. Add in 1k for each episode summary (and assuming a summary for the remaining season 3 episodes) plus the cast list and we're probably around 45k - close to the recommended split threshold noted by MOS:TVSPLIT. One of the recommendations from the most recent assessment was to go ahead and split a list article for the episodes. Because we're right at the threshold meeting the MOS guideline, and seeing that it was recommended in assessment, I'm going to WP:PROSPLIT an episode list article, as discussion is not needed. However, since this discussion also brought up the season episodes, I want to note that we are still a long way from needing to split season articles. There simply is not enough content at this point in time to warrant individual season articles. Butler Blog  (talk) 15:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Cast in article
The size of the cast is somewhat problematic for displaying a cast list. There are a lot of moving parts as some characters shift from season to season. That was the reason for making a single list rather than splitting "main" and "recurring" lists. This was discussed above (and if I can find it, I'll revise this with a quick link). It was also discussed that due to the complexity, it would be a good idea to use the table display method. Generally, that should wait until there are 3 or more seasons, but someone put one in, it was worked on, and then someone removed it. Where it stood prior to removal is this edit:. Note that using the table method is an "either/or" proposition - either we use a list or we use the table. It should not use both. But if a table is used, sections of prose can be used for describing the cast/characters. House (TV series) and Grey's Anatomy are good examples of how to approach this, and that's how I'd recommend approaching it. Ultimately, the cast display is one of the things that is going to either hold the article back or move it forward in terms of evaluating it as B-class or higher (see assessment discussion below). Butler Blog  (talk) 14:20, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Assessment discussion
The article is presently independently assessed as C-class by members of WP:WikiProject Television, and after hundreds of additional edits, there isn't any current improvement to the article since that assessment that would move it closer to B-class. I'll explain why shortly, but I want to point out that we should all be working towards getting the article to GA status so it can be a featured article. But that's going to take effort on the part of everyone to work collaboratively using established guidelines. Constant instability due to edit warring is an immediate fail for GA criteria. Since this article tends to attract new, inexperienced editors who are passionate about the subject but who are often unfamiliar with how article assessment works, it would be good for you to review the guidelines here: WP:ASSESS. You can view the Television Project's assessment criteria and discussions here: WP:TV/A. Let me point out that the majority of current editing I see on this article does nothing to improve it for assessment. Much of the focus in the past has generally been on "list" detail (cast and episodes) which really don't matter much for assessment, other than being complete. It is the other sections of the article, such as production and response sections, that need much more work. That is also why I have mentioned in separate discussion why it is important to not split this article. Inexperienced editors see shows with separate season articles and list articles and think that's what should happen here, too. But there are specific guidelines and criteria for that process (see MOS:TVSPLIT) and this article doesn't meet any of them (and probably won't for a while). What I'm trying to point out is that if you split this article too soon, you'll end up with a bunch of C-class and lower articles that will never stand a chance of making GA assessment and will never be a featured article. Focus on building out the content that matters first. If you're really trying to be part of the project in terms of making this a GA/featured article, stop looking at other low grade articles as your example and instead look at examples of ones that have made it to that point. Here are some examples of what you should try to emulate: Featured Article (FA): House (TV series), A-class/Good Article (GA): Grey's Anatomy, B-class: Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That doesn't mean "do it exactly this way" - but those are examples of what we're working towards in terms of assessment. Butler Blog  (talk) 14:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Update/addendum to the above: I previously said the article hadn't made much progress towards B-class since its last assessment. I want to walk that back a bit, as a further review would suggest that it's farther along than I previously thought.  The article structure is fairly complete with the key sections used by MOS:TV, which is B#3.  Likewise, there is good coverage of available information: B#2.  For the most part, I think it could meet most of the criteria for B-class with a little copy-editing and improvement of sources (see The Chosen (TV series) above).   Butler Blog   (talk) 18:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Infobox network/distributor
Per the docs for Template:Infobox television, the network and distributor parameters are the "original". So even though there has been some change in this regard (VidAngel => Angel Studios), that needs to be reflected. We are an encyclopedia, not a fan site or IMDb, so our information reflects "what was" not "what is". So these need to be reflected probably as a plainlist with dates indicating the years. Butler Blog  (talk) 14:49, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Pay It Forward
I feel a little sheepish because this is a very small and technical issue—not substantive—but I would like to get consensus on how to structure "pay it forward" within the article. The Chosen's pay-it-forward page on angel.com seems to treat it like a proper noun by capitalizing it with no hyphens and no double quotes. However, I don't put too much stock in that; that is, I don't think there was a meaningful consensus made by the writers or editors or whoever. In any case, I absolutely don't think double quotes should be used. I think it should be either capitalized as a proper noun or hyphenated (I lean heavily toward hyphenated):

the Pay It Forward model or the pay-it-forward model

Thanks for the thoughts. Scapulustakk 20:12, 22 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Since we have our own style guide, we adhere to that regardless of what another site may (or may not) do. I don't think the case can be made to capitalize it, and where it is used elsewhere within Wikipedia, it is not capitalized nor hyphenated (although it should be noted, not everything within the WP sphere is always following our own manual of style, so just because something exists here doesn't mean it's done correctly). I could support quotes or no quotes, but definitely not capitalized and probably not hyphenated.   Butler Blog   (talk) 20:40, 22 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the input. I do understand that we have the WP:MOS, but as far as I know, there is no entry for "pay it forward." That's why I brought up the angel.com usage. If it had some sort of official usage within the company, then I would give credence to that (again, in the absence of any official entry in WP:MOS). Thank you for bringing up Pay it forward. That is useful. However, it refers generally to the concept of paying it forward and not to the treatment of the phrase as an adjective. There are, currently, five instances of "pay it forward" within the article's running text. The first is using the phrase generally, in which case I don't think the scare quotes are needed because the phrase is arguably well known and not being used out of context. The other four are being used as adjectives with the word "model" after it. Based on the third section of MOS:HYPHEN, I think hyphenation can be well supported. But I agree that hyphens may not be needed. I'll reiterate that scare quotes should be out of the question given that their grammatical function doesn't apply to this circumstance. Scapulustakk 21:35, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
 * No quotes is probably best.   Butler Blog   (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, if I don't get anymore input soon from anyone else, I'll just go ahead with "pay it forward" (no quotes). Scapulus<b style="color:#FFC419">takk</b> 17:54, 28 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I'll go ahead and take care of it for now.  Butler Blog   (talk) 21:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Promotional tone
Lacks objectivity, reads as if it is advertisement. Cwaterous (talk) 03:56, 12 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I disagree. The article has passed B-class assessment based on independent review from the Television Project and is written in neutral point of view based on reliable sources.   Butler Blog   (talk) 00:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Cast list
Time for the cast list to grow and evolve with the show. I have edited it; changes are up for discussion rather than revision back to the status quo. A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 15:32, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Reverting to status quo. Please leave it at status quo ante.  I'll listen to your reasons for changing it, but there are specific reasons for the cast list is the way it currently stands - and I noted them to you in the edit summary - previous independent article class assessments noted the excessive length of the cast and determined to maintain it as main cast only.  The remainder are noted in the plot summaries.  Please also review MOS:TVCAST, especially noting that not every cast member is notable, nor needs to be included.  This article is currently pending a review for GA status, so please don't edit war over this as article instability is an immediate fail of the GA assessment process.  If you don't understand things, ask.   Butler Blog   (talk) 16:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * User:Butlerblog, won't it fail GA if anything in the article is copied verbatim from anything on the internet let alone an unreliable source? Not to mention, I don't see it passing GA right now at all because much of the wording throughout the article is not well written. Characters such as Pontius Pilate need to be in the cast list.  So does Mary Salome, especially since she is an actual person written about in the Bible.  I can understand that the list should probably be pared down some, but then again, if you're leaving out important characteristics and points regarding a character in the show, then it's not a good list.  What say you? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 16:50, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * RE Characters such as Pontius Pilate need to be in the cast list. So does Mary Salome, especially since she is an actual person written about in the Bible: This article is not about the Bible story - it's about the television show, and therefore it falls under the television manual of style. A character's prominence in the Biblical narrative is not the determining factor - the show's credits are. Pontius Pilate is not a main character at this point.  His inclusion is noted in the plot summary of the episode in which he appears.  While he may very well be in the main cast in later seasons, he is not main cast at present, and for reasons already noted, this article does not list recurring or guest characters that are main cast in at least one of the seasons listed.
 * As for copyvio issues, if there's something you believe to be copied verbatim, identify it. At present, I'm not aware of anything that is an issue. Also, keep in mind that other sites copy Wikipedia, so something you find somewhere else could easily have been copied from here and not the other way around (which is not uncommon).   Butler Blog   (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm not going to do the work for you. The verbatim content pulled from other online sources listing these characters is out there, you just have to look for it.  You want the article to pass GA, so you'll have to do the work to get it there, right?  You have certainly been editing this article heavily and I'm going to assume you know the show pretty well.  Salome has been featured in scenes in all three seasons, right alongside her husband Zebedee, and she IS a documented follower of Jesus so I don't know why you'd want to keep her out of the cast list.  I will also assume you know the main and most well known storylines around the life of Jesus.  Since Pontius Pilate is the only high ranking Roman in the Bible, and Jenkins does pull his most well known characters in the Jesus story from the Bible, it only makes sense that Pilate will be in upcoming episodes.  In fact, it's certain he will be.  But I suppose we can wait until he appears again, although I don't know why because his presence is going to be pivotal in the storylines to come.  As will Lazarus and Mary and Martha his sisters who become followers.  Good luck on the GA.  Is it protocol in Wikipedia to keep people from editing an article when GA is forthcoming? A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 19:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to do the work for you. Just, wow. You're making a claim of copyvio.  If there's validity to your claim, address it.  Otherwise, there is nothing further to discuss on that point.   Butler Blog   (talk) 20:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I do suspect a copyright violation, but I'm not going to devote time to investigating. I just thought you might like to know it's a possibility. As to the other cast members, the list needs updating and improving, that's all I was trying to do. Hopefully there will be no issue with getting GA status. I would like to know if it's expected that no one edit the article while GA reviewing or voting or however it works is happening. If you could answer that point I'd appreciate it. Thank you! A4M2 Alaska4Me2 (talk) 23:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)


 * There's no specific hard-and-fast rule, but's best to avoid editing while GA is pending as article stability is a contributing factor.  Butler Blog   (talk) 11:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Character boxes
How is main or recurring status determined for the series and season?

There are folks that appear in: AngusW🐶🐶F ( bark  •  sniff ) 22:11, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Opening title credits
 * End credits: Also starring


 * I think the discussions around the cast list are in the archive. Through the process of two independent assessments (from "start" to "C" class, then "C" to "B" class), it was recommended that, due to the length and complexity of the entire cast, that the list be limited to main cast only.  I think that through discussion (in the archive), that was essentially determined by opening credits.  I did the first two seasons, and if I recall correctly, someone else added the 3rd, but I confirmed it and all of that was based on opening credits (i.e. per MOS:TVCAST, the billing of main cast is determined by the production, not by our own personal taste).  Also per MOS:TVCAST, new main cast is added in order (so old main cast that may not carry over to the next season still remains).  At some point, it will likely be necessary to have a list article for cast/characters.  First, that would alleviate some of the contention that certain characters be included even though they may not be listed in the opening credits.  And second, that prevents clutter of dozens of minor characters in the main article.   Butler Blog   (talk) 00:40, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * To clarify - the list is "main cast" (opening credits) over three seasons. So while someone may have been main cast in only one or two seasons, it lists their status from any other season they also appeared in (rather than only taking their main cast season alone).  The models used for example were The Killing (American TV series), House (TV series), and Grey's Anatomy (as far as how the table was applied.  House has a separate list article for cast and characters that could serve as a model for expanding a list article to incorporate a listing of main plus recurring and guest cast.   Butler Blog   (talk) 00:46, 4 September 2023 (UTC)